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is casting lots okay?

jehoiakim

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So we have a very hard decision to make about buying a house, prayed it out followed our minds the best we can and tried to follow our guts as well and we are at a cross roads where the decision is really tough, a decision has never been so difficult for my wife and I to determine at this point what is logical, what is emotion and what is God's will. I can't remember ever being stuck liek this in a a position before...

I am sure we can all think of several examples in scripture where lots where cast, some day it's divination no matter what, but that doesn't make sense to me since the priests did it regularly and the disciples also did it at least once. Is it wise, is it biblical to cast lots to hear from the Lord at this point?
 

SteveNZ

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May I share that the wisdom of friends who will pray and stand with you, would help quide you.

For I can personally testify that buying a home placed quite a load on the minds of my wife and I. I pray that the load may be placed aside so you may see the Lords will.

Friends do not have that same load and may be able to share the wisdom you require for the decision.

May the peace of God be with you.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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So we have a very hard decision to make about buying a house, prayed it out followed our minds the best we can and tried to follow our guts as well and we are at a cross roads where the decision is really tough, a decision has never been so difficult for my wife and I to determine at this point what is logical, what is emotion and what is God's will. I can't remember ever being stuck liek this in a a position before...

I am sure we can all think of several examples in scripture where lots where cast, some day it's divination no matter what, but that doesn't make sense to me since the priests did it regularly and the disciples also did it at least once. Is it wise, is it biblical to cast lots to hear from the Lord at this point?

Don't know if this may help...but there were two books on the issue that GREATLY aided me when it came to knowing how to hear the voice of the Lord. They are called Surprised by the Voice of God: How God Speaks Today Through Prophecies... - (as seen here ) by Jack Deere...and they're some of the best resources I've ever recieved. I especially enjoyed what he shared on p.g 116-118 on how the Holy Spirit can speak through common observances and a myriad of other venues (as seen here). Apart from that, if interested, I remember a sermon I heard once that really blessed me..concerning praying to be filled with the knowledge of His Will when it comes to the question of what it means when it comes to "Finding the Will of God"?--as one can Right click here to download this sermon & hear the entire message that really was insightful, IMHO.....especially when it comes to going through the entire book of Acts and seeing how the saints sought the Lord on issues.


Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Romans 12:1-3 / Romans 12


The Will of the Lord is not always clear..and thus, its why then is there need to have our minds renewed by the Lord and later deciding to test/approve of what is or isn't of the Lord via the testimony of the scriptures. And for other scriptures to consider...
Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.
Proverbs 2/Proverbs 2:17

Moral Benefits of Wisdom

1 My son, if you accept my words
and store up my commands within you,

2 turning your ear to wisdom
and applying your heart to understanding,
3 and if you call out for insight
and cry aloud for understanding,
4 and if you look for it as for silver
and search for it as for hidden treasure,
5 then you will understand the fear of the LORD
and find the knowledge of God.

6 For the LORD gives wisdom,
and from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.

7 He holds victory in store for the upright,
he is a shield to those whose walk is blameless,
8 for he guards the course of the just
and protects the way of his faithful ones.
9 Then you will understand what is right and just
and fair—every good path.
10 For wisdom will enter your heart,
and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul.
11 Discretion will protect you,
and understanding will guard you.
12 Wisdom will save you from the ways of wicked men,
from men whose words are perverse,
13 who leave the straight paths
to walk in dark ways,
14 who delight in doing wrong
and rejoice in the perverseness of evil,
15 whose paths are crooked
and who are devious in their ways.
16 It will save you also from the adulteress,
from the wayward wife with her seductive words, 17 who has left the partner of her youth
and ignored the covenant she made before God. [a]

Colossians 1:9
For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding.
Colossians 1:8-10 (in Context) Colossians 1
__________________
 
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Gxg (G²)

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If you need confirmation about something from God, you can't go past prayer and fasting.

Sometimes, prayer and fasting can be utilized in a way that goes around what the Lord already said in the Word---and even in fasting/praying, one may miss the Lord if they don't utilize wisdom from others or seeing the fruit of what it is that they do. Acts 15-16 comes to mind when it came to the disciples making decisions based on what seemed wise to them for the sake of the Gentiles. The same goes with Paul. The pastor of one of the fellowships I attend gave an excellent sermon on the subject that really aided me...as seen here and here, here and here.

With casting lots, it can be interesting to consider the reasons why others may be inclined to utilized that format many times. As I learned best from one brother,
The issue boils down to ancient versus modern views of human agency. Ancient people were much more fatalistic, and in a good way. Amor fati was a big deal. In our modern world, we don’t like amor fati. We like to think we control our own decisions. Plus, we feel the need to make our decision come out “right.” We fear the sub-optimal outcome. Why? Because our inflated sense of agency makes us feel responsible for the outcome.

Thus, I don’t think we cast lots because we have lost our amor fati. We want to CONTROL the outcome. We are not interested in RECONCILING ourselves to outcomes. Thus, although we “consult” God in prayer we rarely let the choice fall completely outside our powers. We won’t, literally and figuratively, roll the dice.

All this makes me think of the distinctions anthropologists make between religion and magic. Generally, religion is relational. That is, in a religion, to use an economic metaphor, “goods and services” are exchanged between the people and the gods. The gods have expectations of the people (e.g., worship, gifts) and the people have expectations of the gods (e.g., protection, good harvest, rain in West Texas). And because religions are relational the dance between people and the gods can get complicated, with lots of potential for hurt feelings on both sides (read the Old Testament for just one example of this emotional rollercoaster ride). Magic is different from religion. Magic is not relational. Magic is a kind of spiritual technology where a “spell” is performed to compel some supernatural agent to perform an action (e.g., curse or attack an enemy, cure an illness). Note the idea of compulsion or force.

Sometimes I wonder about prayer as a form of magic. This may be a strained comparison as I do think prayer is more relational than technological, metaphysically speaking. But sometimes in church it feels like people are praying to get a very specific response from God, like a sign or a cure. I don’t know, but those prayers feel “magical” to me, as a way of using prayer as a spiritual technology, a way of compelling a response from God. But, oddly, casting lots strikes me differently. When you cast a lot you’re just trying to get some information. You don’t really have an expectation about the outcome, unlike with a prayer for a specific outcome you want to see. Thus, compared to certain kinds of petitionary prayer, casting lots looks a lot less magical to me. Now, how weird is that? Casting lots as less magical than prayer.
 
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visionary

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The very fact that after all the information gathering, the discussions, the good and bad balancing on this decision, you are now at the point where the tip of the scale will be left up to the casting of lots..... I would say... Don't... If it doesn't work out are you going to blame God for allowing the lots to land they way they do?...

Let's be totally responsible for the decision made by making it and living with it. If God doesn't reassure you in your decision, then don't do it until you, your wife, and Him are comfortable with the decision.
 
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chris4243

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Yes, presumably God determines the outcome of casting lots. [The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord (Prov. 16:33).] Nevertheless, you cannot do it with a coin flip because sometimes God chooses not to respond to such probing.

What I would suggest, is flip a coin at least 30 times. Your have 1 chance in a billion to get all heads, or all tails, which you can treat as a "yes" or "no". The other 99.9999995% of the time, by chance, you'd treat as "no answer". Of course if everyone in the world did this you'd get about 14 false positives (the 30 flips all landing on heads or tails but by chance).
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I can't think offhand of any example of believers casting lots for anything after Pentecost. Anyone got something?

I know that Augustine of Hippo observed in the late 4th century, in relation to Proverbs 16.23, which states, "the lot is cast in the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord", that some forms of casting the lot cannot be declared 'evil'....and for reference, that was quoted by Aquinas in Summa Theologiae (London, Eyre and Spottiswoode, 1972) Vol 40 p65 (2a2ae95.8). Also. Tertullian is a alleged to have said even more bluntly that 'if you call yourself a Christian when you are a dice-player, you say you are what you are not, for you are a partner with the world.'

In his treatise De Spectaculis, in which he gives advice to the Christian faithful about the amphitheatre, he explicitly states that the 'forms of madness, with which the circus rages' are forbidden them. Incidentally, included in the madness to which Tertullian refers is a form of betting somewhat akin to a raffle or lottery. In response to the question, "Why are such activities forbidden?", Tertullian replied, because they do 'not square with true religion or with duty toward God."

For more, one can go and look up Tertullian, De Spectaculis, xvi. See eg Tertullian, Apology and De Spectaculis, trans T R Glover and Minucius Felix, Octavius, trans G H Rendall (London, Heinemann, 1984) p273


But with where Tertullian was coming from, the act of Gambling was what he had in mind
 
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jehoiakim

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We have prayed over this matter ferventally and we are not strangers to fasting. Discernment has never really been much of a stuggle for my wife and I before, we wrestled with everything a lot, the lots thing was out of desperation.

Yes we were at the point where we were totally unable to decide which way to go. Not I will not blame God if it doesn't work out, but I would assume if he allowed me to go ahead with it he would be at least teaching me a lesson.

certainly many have and would abuse lots which is why I was hesitant to do it myself. I don't see us using them anytime in the near future, but I felt this was the time and place.

I did cast lots with 3 quarters, all heads was a yes, all tails was a no and anything other then that I assumed I should not be asking or would receive no answer. I prayed while I casted and they started dropping out of my hand as I shook them, I was not deciding when to let them go. I must admit while I hoped God might answer me in this was I was quite surprised to receive a result of 3 heads. I doubted myself and picked them up and tried to explain the casting lots thing to my wife as I played with them in my hand... two more continued to fall... heads. This morning I doubted whether it was God answering or my mind playing tricks, God has been tasting my faith the last few months about how I believe I hear from him. I decided to try one more time and asked prayerfully and again 3 heads. I feel like the answer was made clear.

I don't really advocate casting lots 99.9999% of the time, but I felt like this time it was okay because at this point we felt so strongly that this house should be ours, but the seller was being quite tough with us. We are at the point where we have to take a step of faith either way. 1. That God was moving us to buy this house despite our concerns and to trust him, or 2. That God was moving us to walk away from it because he has something else in mind. It has been a very hard process and we have put the whole thing on the alter, we have left to my knowledge no motive or concern of ours left unchecked. It has been my experience that sometimes God is clear, sometimes he is not. When he is not clear often I have discovered the choice doesn't matter much, but this was such a risky think either way we felt a bit paralyzed. At this point we are going ahead with it, we shall see once we do the house inspection. We still believe that if it is not God's will that he will do something to remove it from our options and right now we are teetering on the edge.
 
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visionary

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It is asking Him to enter into the decision making process.. whether the "fleece" or the "lots" are the choice of indication... which can not be all bad...

I would rather have a "in the mind only" prayer where I ask the Lord to send me someone to say a certain thing one way or another that only the Lord, who can hear my mind think, could have known what I asked for... as confirmation. IT is amazing what happens. The reason I do not say it out loud is because it become open to evil angels to mess with. I make sure it is a strange statement that even an evil angel could not have second guessed it.
 
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Easy G (G²);58920039 said:
I know that Augustine of Hippo observed in the late 4th century, in relation to Proverbs 16.23, which states, "the lot is cast in the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord", that some forms of casting the lot cannot be declared 'evil'....and for reference, that was quoted by Aquinas in Summa Theologiae (London, Eyre and Spottiswoode, 1972) Vol 40 p65 (2a2ae95.8). Also. Tertullian is a alleged to have said even more bluntly that 'if you call yourself a Christian when you are a dice-player, you say you are what you are not, for you are a partner with the world.'

In his treatise De Spectaculis, in which he gives advice to the Christian faithful about the amphitheatre, he explicitly states that the 'forms of madness, with which the circus rages' are forbidden them. Incidentally, included in the madness to which Tertullian refers is a form of betting somewhat akin to a raffle or lottery. In response to the question, "Why are such activities forbidden?", Tertullian replied, because they do 'not square with true religion or with duty toward God."

For more, one can go and look up Tertullian, De Spectaculis, xvi. See eg Tertullian, Apology and De Spectaculis, trans T R Glover and Minucius Felix, Octavius, trans G H Rendall (London, Heinemann, 1984) p273


But with where Tertullian was coming from, the act of Gambling was what he had in mind


I think Tertullian's comments are related more towards gambling, which is a sin as it violates the commandments against coveting.

I am sure that Augustine is right in that every form of casting lots is not a sin but I would that the proverb he is commenting on is probably about God's sovereignty and not about casting lots per se. I am not much of a fan of Augustine when it comes to his understanding of much of proverbs and the Psalms, but some of his other work is pretty good.

So, what are we to say? I believe this is clear- we have no example in the Bible of believers casting lots after Pentecost. We are led by the Spirit of God when we are His children.
 
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We have prayed over this matter ferventally and we are not strangers to fasting. Discernment has never really been much of a stuggle for my wife and I before, we wrestled with everything a lot, the lots thing was out of desperation.

You must exercise extraordinary patience. No where in the scriptures are Spirit-filled and led believers called to cast lots to find the will of God.

If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.
But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind.
For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways. (James 1:5-8)
 
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I would agree I would far rather have a different confirmation and I asked for it and often I get it, but the Lord gives what the Lord gives and he tests how he tests and this one is clearly meant to grow me outside my box

May He bless your path!
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I think Tertullian's comments are related more towards gambling, which is a sin as it violates the commandments against coveting.

The issue of gambling being sin is what Tertullian seemed to be focused upon. Of course, things can get to be a bit sticky when seeing the ways that gambling is used to benefit others...as it concerns the lottery and colleges being funded by that (such as it is with things like the HOPE Scholarship in places like Georgia and similar scholarships in southern states).
I am sure that Augustine is right in that every form of casting lots is not a sin but I would that the proverb he is commenting on is probably about God's sovereignty and not about casting lots per se.
Would disagree, as the proverb he was commenting was in line with dozens of other references when it comes to the subject of casting lots and how it was ALWAYS with the sovereignty of God in view when the lot was cast. As Solomon himself was a Hebrew and would have been well familar with the practice occurring since the Law itself advocated it, it would be a bit intellectually dishonest (IMHO) to try assuming the proverb had to have meant something else.

I am not much of a fan of Augustine when it comes to his understanding of much of proverbs and the Psalms, but some of his other work is pretty good.
That I can understand..
So, what are we to say? I believe this is clear- we have no example in the Bible of believers casting lots after Pentecost.
If trying to make an argument of how something is done because it was mentioned one time, I think one would end up in some very difficult situations that would not make sense logically. For trying to focus on explicit examples either given or not given and then making inferences is akin to begging the question. One can say there are no more examples of the believers living a communal lifestyle after Acts 4:32-36---but it'd be incomplete to claim more than what the text indicates, such as saying "Well, from this, we can infer that the communal lifestyle was only for that era and should not be practiced today." To do so, it'd be pertinent to show within history if Christians were known for doing a communal lifestyle...and, for that matter, show how Christians practiced generosity multiple times prior to that. The same dynamic goes for other things not mentioned explicitly within the Gospels (such AS beastiality per Exodus 22:19 , or a host of other things)--as many have said that the lack of discussion on such things within the NT means that it wasn't a valid concern of the Lord. That'd be erroneous since the Lord would not have to spell it out all the time (nor would the Biblical writers) since the people they were writing for would have been aware of the practices already occurring amongst believers and thus some things didn't need to be said. It's the same way with casting lots, IMHO, as there are enough examples within the OT where it was used in regards to the priesthood itself/determining positions in leadership and where the scriptures note the Lord guided it just as he guided others through things like dreams/visions, prophecies and a host of other things.


And apart from that, what is often left out is that trying to make an argument about believers after Pentecost is limited if trying to say that it ceased because believers didn't have the Holy SPirit. What was done in Acts 1 was done by the apostles..and they were already given an infilling of the Holy Spirit by Jesus himself in John 20:22 when sending them ...for he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

Thus, they were already with the Spirit even before Acts 2...and it can easily be said that what they did in casting lots was Spirit-Led. The only other option, IMHO, is to say that they were not led by the Spirit in choosing Mattias via lots and that his selection was a mistake that was not guided by the Spirit.






The Apostles were trying to discern God’s will over who should replace Judas as the twelfth Apostle. As they sought God, they prayed and cast lots. Casting lots was a fairly common method of discerning God’s will in biblical times. Lots were usually made out of small stones, and
the method of using them was similar to drawing straws, or flipping a coin – yet with a component of faith in God’s providence to decide a matter.

We are led by the Spirit of God when we are His children
I agree. Nonetheless, being led by the SPirit of God doesn't mean that the means one has available and that the Spirit gave clearly in the OT are no longer apart of how he leads anymore than it'd be logical to say that those led by the SPirit of God cannot truly trust in the means he has used such as wisdom, the advice of others, dreams, prophecy, circumstances and a host of other things. Being led by the Spirit of God is not just a matter of the Spirit saying in a loud voice (or an inner voice) saying "Do This..."--as he has spoken in a myraid of ways.​


And for others who've actually cast lots (or flipped the coins) after being prayerful/asking the Lord for confirmation (just as Gideon did in Judges 6:38-40 /with the fleece on the ground ), it never ceases to amaze when it comes to the ways that the Lord did indeed speak. One can argue against that, but it cannot explained away in the sense of saying "Well, that was just coincidence that you prayed and this outcome happened!!!!"​

With casting lots, there should always be wisdom since it is not necessarily the main thing people should do. Say, for instance, that you have a job offer and you can't seem to make up your mind whether to take it or not. Should you prayerfully come before the Lord Jesus to ask Him what to do? Should you grab a couple dice and say, "If You want me to take this job, then show me a number below six." And so you roll your dice and up comes three on one dice and two on the other. So do you now know it is His will for you to take the job? Has He made your decision? One must be very wary of demanding such things from the LORD without a clear command to do so...or doing the things which the Lord placed MORE emphasis on when it came to believers discerning His Will. In example, in 1 Cor 12-14 when Paul discusses the "gifts of the Spirit" (see also Romans 12) there are a number of gifts that are given precisely for the purpose of helping the church discern the will of God...prophesy, the interpretation of tongues, the word of knowledge and others.​

And all of those things should precede decisions. That's apart of what occurred with the casting of lots in Acts 1. Peter, acting as leader of the group, said that someone should be chosen to replace Judas Iscariot, who was dead. Peter acted as an authoritative interpreter of Scripture, observing that Psalm 69:25 had predicted Judas' death, and Psalm 109:8 predicted that someone else would be chosen for his position of leadership. As it concerns who they felt would qualify to be another of the 12, they used wisdom in saying that he had to have been a disciple of Jesus throughout his ministry — from the beginning to the end (verses 21-22). Two men matched that description, so the group prayed and cast lots to see which man should be numbered with the apostles and become an appointed witness of Jesus' resurrection. (Although many people had seen the resurrected Jesus and could be witnesses to his resurrection, it seems that the group of 12 apostles formed a group of official witnesses.)​

And as they were filled with the Spirit, they were setting an amazing example of how the Spirit of the Lord could work. As said best by another:​
"Choosing a twelfth member of this core group of witnesses implies acceptance of Jesus' commission to be his witnesses in the new situation following his death and resurrection. This is an act of faith in Jesus and a first step in obedience to his new call" (Robert Tannehill, The Narrative Unity of Luke-Acts, part 2: Acts, page 21).
The story of Acts 1 also forms an interesting contrast in how to select leaders. For in Acts 6, leaders are chosen who are "full of the Spirit and wisdom" and "full of faith" (6:3, 5)....and there is no mention of casting lots. This does not mean that casting lots could not have been done (As if it was FORBIDDEN)--but with the Holy SPirit being given to everybody, there were other opportunities available and ways for people to discern the Lord's Will as opposed to SOLELY using the former method of lot casting as with before. If others had chosen to do so, that would not have meant the Spirit of God could not work


There are some other references to casting lots in the Old Testament, some used and commanded by God, some used by rebellious leaders of Israel (case of Saul above) and some even used by pagans. I would have to say that the practice of lot casting has a checkered past!


There is only one example of casting lots among God’s people in the books of the New Testament. (The casting of lots by the soldiers who crucified Jesus was not done by God’s people.) That is the case of the choosing of Matthias in Acts 1:26. Some have questioned whether this choice or the method used to arrive at it, were approved by God, but I find no reason to believe that God didn’t approve of Matthias as His choice for Judas’ replacement. Any suggestion otherwise seems to be based wholly upon conjecture.

There is no mention of the practice after this time. In fact it seems that though there were many critical decisions that needed to be made among the leaders of the church in the first century, there is not a single case of casting lots beyond that case with the replacement of Judas.

One of the most critical decisions made by the early church was to decide how the Jewish Christians were to accept the Gentiles who also became Christians. One full chapter in Acts is devoted to describing the occasion and the decision that was made. Yet there is no mention of the practice of casting lots.

Other decisions that could also have lent themselves to the practice have no mention of the casting of lots. In the choice of the seven deacons in Acts 7, the congregation decided without the help of lots. In Paul’s instruction of the choice and appointment of elders in Timothy and Titus, again, no reference is made to the practice of casting lots, though it might have been nice to have more specific guidance than scriptural qualifications and human judgment. Other examples of decisions made without the casting of lots can probably be cited.


Even in that one situation with regard to the choice of Matthias to replace Judas, it seems like they used a majority of revealed wisdom and human judgment.

Acts 1:21-26: "It is therefore necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us-- 22 beginning with the baptism of John, until the day that He was taken up from us-- one of these should become a witness with us of His resurrection." 23 And they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. 24 And they prayed, and said, "Thou, Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two Thou hast chosen 25 to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place. " 26 And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
It looks to me that by the time they decided to cast lots, they already had two qualified men, either of which would probably have done the job well, especially when inspired by the Holy Spirit in Acts 2. This was not a choice between good and bad but between two goods. It is likely that the choice would have worked out with either candidate. (A friend of min remarked in our discussion group that it may have worked quite well for them. "See how short their church business meeting was?")


.....It is my conclusion from considering these things that the practice of casting lots was used in Bible times (before the New Testament revelation) when much less was known of the will of God than we know today. The practice was also misused in those days as well (case of Saul wanting to kill Jonathan) so one should not consider the act valid in and of itself. It could be misused. The sudden way in which the practice ceased after the day of Pentecost, even though many tough decisions remained to be made for the church, leads me to believe that God would have us use spiritual wisdom (see 1 Corinthians 6:5) and the guidance of the Scriptures (See Acts 15:15-19) to make decisions today.
One can say that there's nowhere believers are called to cast lots--but that has nothing to do with addressing whether or not they DID in the NT and whether or not there was already Biblical precedence for it....just as it is with other things. If the APOSTLES, led by the Spirit of God, did so and they were the leaders of the church leading by example, I'll go with them anyday:cool::)....but even if not doing so, it is a blessing to know that there are many ways a person can know fully what the Lord's Will is.
 
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ContraMundum

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Easy G (G²);58923535 said:
If the APOSTLES, led by the Spirit of God, did so and they were the leaders of the church leading by example, I'll go with them anyday:cool::)

Agreed. They cast lots for Matthias, but not once do we see them doing so after Pentecost. Personally, if I do not hear from God on a particular issue, I count it a blessing- He is helping me grow. I take it to mean that I should assess the matter based on my values (which are formed by the Word and Spirit) and go ahead and make a decision- God will bless what I turn my hand to if it is in His will, and will close the door if it is not. All is well either way.
 
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