Homosexuality: Choice and/or genetic?

[dante'sComedy]

~ boy your up early. you must have waited up all nite 4 my reply. hahaha.
~ i think we are past the point of no return you and i.
~ Yet, i will say i've never read where the earth is the center of the universe? you got me there?
~ I guess the reason i'm so adament in this discussion. I always look for the bible to answer the question's i might have concerning life.

~ And , i'm not a hater by any means. Just adament for God to rule. With that said, really i'm looking back to Genesis. It's basic's. Genesis is cut and dry truth. Its christian fundemental's.

~ Origin of man? What does the bible say? The first man (Adam) was created after the image of God. God saw Adam's need for a helpmate and "built" Eve.
~ We see Adam's response - bone of bone , flesh of my flesh. We see "Equality" between them. I might interject, that God saw that Adam was alone. So He blessed Adam w/ a partner from his own body! - love that part by the way.

~ I don't see anywhere in the Beginning where God in any context places a man with another man. For union ,as a helpmate, or the notion for pleasure. Its not there. Therefore , God's design. Is for man and woman to have love and fidelity, partnered together for the purposes of their Creator.

 

[William777]

Its terribly sad that so far you have managed to compare an entire minority to psychotic killers and animals

Not at all, objectively this is an impulse desire, not a classification of people, therefore I compared it to other impulse desires. Oh, but it is you might say. Well I have known some individuals who had these base desires and overcame them got married and are now as happy as can be. Having never acted upon their desires they once had I would not classify them homosexual.

Now you are speaking on behalf of all homosexuals and all people with homosexual desires, saying that none of them can overcome their base impulse desire. This is not being honest or fair to any one who wants to overcome this desire.

The only choice gays and lesbians have is the choice to be honest and the choice to live a life of lies and self denial

Your premise is that just because you have the desire that you should act upon it other wise you are not being honest. Thus the logical conclusion of my statement about animals. Not comparing the people but the impulse desires for they are both on the same level and the only accurate and truly comparable desires for they both are upon the plane of the human sex drive. You might as well argue the act of rape (one whose sex drive is so strong they will force others) or sodomy should not be hampered, which to do so would not be honest with their desires, but should be embraced else they live a life of lies. Again, not comparing the people but the impulse desires which are stronger in said category. You cant just take one category of sexual desires and say that category is acceptable on the basis of genetics or impulse and then ignore the others.

Clearly on the basis of sexual impulse we would have to accept them all. However, on the basis of morality we would not classify all sexual impulses as acceptable. Still failing to see the validity or relevancy on the importance of the origins of these desires.
-W

 

[sonofjay817]

Not at all, objectively this is an impulse desire, not a classification of people, therefore I compared it to other impulse desires. Oh, but it is you might say. Well I have known some individuals who had these base desires and overcame them got married and are now as happy as can be. Having never acted upon their desires they once had I would not classify them homosexual.

Now you are speaking on behalf of all homosexuals and all people with homosexual desires, saying that none of them can overcome their base impulse desire. This is not being honest or fair to any one who wants to overcome this desire.



Your premise is that just because you have the desire that you should act upon it other wise you are not being honest. Thus the logical conclusion of my statement about animals. Not comparing the people but the impulse desires for they are both on the same level and the only accurate and truly comparable desires for they both are upon the plane of the human sex drive. You might as well argue the act of rape (one whose sex drive is so strong they will force others) or sodomy should not be hampered, which to do so would not be honest with their desires, but should be embraced else they live a life of lies. Again, not comparing the people but the impulse desires which are stronger in said category. You cant just take one category of sexual desires and say that category is acceptable on the basis of genetics or impulse and then ignore the others.

Clearly on the basis of sexual impulse we would have to accept them all. However, on the basis of morality we would not classify all sexual impulses as acceptable. Still failing to see the validity or relevancy on the importance of the origins of these desires.
-W

Well said!

 

[OllieFranz]

Not at all, objectively this is an impulse desire, not a classification of people,

If it is an "impulse desire," then why is it that young children, too young to understand sexual desires, and whose impulses are focused in other, non-sexual, areas, still know that they are different from their friends?

How is it that researchers can find evidence of these early differences? There are often objective, physiological differences between gay men and straight men, and some of these are even found in young children. If, as you appear to imply, homosexuality is a perversion of the natural order, then why is it that innocent children seem to be born "perverted"?

 

[david_x]

If it is an "impulse desire," then why is it that young children, too young to understand sexual desires, and whose impulses are focused in other, non-sexual, areas, still know that they are different from their friends?

How is it that researchers can find evidence of these early differences? There are often objective, physiological differences between gay men and straight men, and some of these are even found in young children. If, as you appear to imply, homosexuality is a perversion of the natural order, then why is it that innocent children seem to be born "perverted"?

They are interpreting things that they already know the conclusion too, that is an illogical way to do things in the first place.

 

[OllieFranz]

They are interpreting things that they already know the conclusion too, that is an illogical way to do things in the first place.

Oh? And just how is that they "already know" these children will grow up gay? Yes, they indentified the differences first in adult gay men, but when they found them in the children, there was nothing else to indicate that they would grow up gay. And yet they did.

Or are you claiming that they forced these children to become gay as they grew older, just to fit their studies to their conclusions?

 

[sonofjay817]

If it is an "impulse desire," then why is it that young children, too young to understand sexual desires, and whose impulses are focused in other, non-sexual, areas, still know that they are different from their friends?

How is it that researchers can find evidence of these early differences? There are often objective, physiological differences between gay men and straight men, and some of these are even found in young children. If, as you appear to imply, homosexuality is a perversion of the natural order, then why is it that innocent children seem to be born "perverted"?

There is a theory that a child's gender identity is established at an extremely early age, maybe around two years of age, and that in the case of hermaphrodites, it is very important to look at the chromosomes to determine the child's true sex so that it can be encouraged to develop accordingly before that age to avoid gender confusion. IF this is true, and something happened to thwart the process of gender identification, then it could explain the child knowing they are different at a very early age, even when sexual impulses are still dormant. It would mean its neither choice, nor genetic, but early developmental (although I acknowledge natural temperament could certainly be a contributing factor).

As to the objective physiological differences, I'm wondering what you're referring to; if it's alleged differences observed in the brain, we have to ask what came first, the chicken or the egg. Behaviour patterns can alter the brain's physiology.

 

[david_x]

Oh? And just how is that they "already know" these children will grow up gay? Yes, they indentified the differences first in adult gay men, but when they found them in the children, there was nothing else to indicate that they would grow up gay. And yet they did.

Or are you claiming that they forced these children to become gay as they grew older, just to fit their studies to their conclusions?

The study i've seen was very poorly executed. They looked at the home videos of grown adults and made conclusions about the way they acted, it was ridiculous.

 

[BigBadWlf]

~ boy your up early. you must have waited up all nite 4 my reply. hahaha.

Boy???

~ I guess the reason i'm so adament in this discussion. I always look for the bible to answer the question's i might have concerning life.

and others do not?

~ And , i'm not a hater by any means. Just adament for God to rule. With that said, really i'm looking back to Genesis. It's basic's. Genesis is cut and dry truth. Its christian fundemental's.

“You can safely assume you have created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates the same people you do.” --Annie Lamott

~ Origin of man? What does the bible say? The first man (Adam) was created after the image of God. God saw Adam's need for a helpmate and "built" Eve.
~ We see Adam's response - bone of bone , flesh of my flesh. We see "Equality" between them. I might interject, that God saw that Adam was alone. So He blessed Adam w/ a partner from his own body! - love that part by the way.

I guess you skipped Gen 1:27
So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Not at all, objectively this is an impulse desire, not a classification of people, therefore I compared it to other impulse desires.

Is being heterosexual an impulse desire?
Is being left handed an impulse desire?
Is being black an impulse desire?
Is being Jewish an impulse desire?

Oh, but it is you might say. Well I have known some individuals who had these base desires and overcame them got married and are now as happy as can be. Having never acted upon their desires they once had I would not classify them homosexual.

Strange that when researchers go hunting for such people they can’t find any it is also strange that ex-gay ministries lie Exodus claim to have helped change “hundreds of thousands” of homosexuals into heterosexuals but they can’t actually name any of these “hundreds of thousands” of people.

Now you are speaking on behalf of all homosexuals and all people with homosexual desires, saying that none of them can overcome their base impulse desire. This is not being honest or fair to any one who wants to overcome this desire.

Now you are

Your premise is that just because you have the desire that you should act upon it other wise you are not being honest.

Incorrect. Pretending to be what you are not is being dishonest

Thus the logical conclusion of my statement about animals. Not comparing the people but the impulse desires for they are both on the same level and the only accurate and truly comparable desires for they both are upon the plane of the human sex drive.

Why are you reducing an entire minority to sex drive.

Racists have along history of doing this to people of color (better hide the white women) to dehumanize said people. If one can associate people of color as sex fiends given to falling into animal instincts then the justification of prejudice becomes all the easier

You might as well argue the act of rape (one whose sex drive is so strong they will force others)

Rape is a crime of power and ego and has nothing to do with sex

Again, not comparing the people but the impulse desires which are stronger in said category. You cant just take one category of sexual desires and say that category is acceptable on the basis of genetics or impulse and then ignore the others.

Evidence that rape is genetic?

Clearly on the basis of sexual impulse we would have to accept them all. However, on the basis of morality we would not classify all sexual impulses as acceptable. Still failing to see the validity or relevancy on the importance of the origins of these desires.

-W

Slippery slope, a logical fallacy

 

[William777]

Is being heterosexual an impulse desire?

Yes, it abides in the realm of free will. Should it be restrained? Yes.

Is being left handed an impulse desire?

Is bodily growth an impulse desire? Irrelevant, does not pertain to free will. If I said stop growing i would still grow I have no free will in the matter.

Is being black an impulse desire?

Again, irrelevant to the conversation since it does not pertain to free will.

Is being Jewish an impulse desire?

Redundant

Strange that when researchers go hunting for such people they can’t find any it is also strange that ex-gay ministries lie Exodus claim to have helped change “hundreds of thousands” of homosexuals into heterosexuals but they can’t actually name any of these “hundreds of thousands” of people.

I gave you one case of an individual with homosexual desires. Are you saying that in all the world of 6.8 billion people there is not one case as I described?

"The only choice gays and lesbians have is the choice to be honest and the choice to live a life of lies and self denial''

Thus Your premise is that just because you have the desire that you should act upon it other wise you are not being honest.

.....Incorrect. Pretending to be what you are not is being dishonest

Same thing I said except you inferred the impulse cannot be separated from the individual.

Why are you reducing an entire minority to sex drive.

By definition homosexuality is a sexual drive.

Racists have along history of doing this to people of color (better hide the white women) to dehumanize said people. If one can associate people of color as sex fiends given to falling into animal instincts then the justification of prejudice becomes all the easier

Irrelevant to the discussion at hand on the premise of free will.

Rape is a crime of power and ego and has nothing to do with sex

Rape has nothing to do with sexual drive? You are generalizing, If the sexual drive was not present (take it away) the rape physically could not happen. It is an act of power but a sexual desire.

Evidence that rape is genetic?

I didn't say that it was, but you can lump it into the genetics of sexual drive.

Respectfully,

-William

 

[William777]

There is a theory that a child's gender identity is established at an extremely early age, maybe around two years of age, and that in the case of hermaphrodites, it is very important to look at the chromosomes to determine the child's true sex so that it can be encouraged to develop accordingly before that age to avoid gender confusion. IF this is true, and something happened to thwart the process of gender identification, then it could explain the child knowing they are different at a very early age, even when sexual impulses are still dormant. It would mean its neither choice, nor genetic, but early developmental (although I acknowledge natural temperament could certainly be a contributing factor).

As to the objective physiological differences, I'm wondering what you're referring to; if it's alleged differences observed in the brain, we have to ask what came first, the chicken or the egg. Behaviour patterns can alter the brain's physiology.

Good point

 

[david_x]

Boy???

ROFL, boy is an explicative. I don't think he was calling you a boy. It's a term of surprise, OY, WOW, etc.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Yes, it abides in the realm of free will. Should it be restrained? Yes.

You are confusing sexual acts with sexual orientation.

Sexual orientation is a pattern of emotional, romantic, and/or sexual attractions to men, women, both genders, neither gender, or another gender


To claim homosexuality is a function of will then you are saying that you could, here and now, choose to change your sexual orientation, take up life as a gay man, fall in love, find a mate, get married, buy a house, raise children with this man and be happy doing so.

Is bodily growth an impulse desire? Irrelevant, does not pertain to free will. If I said stop growing i would still grow I have no free will in the matter.

All available evidence suggests that sexual orientation is inborn just like left/right handedness.
Now one could take a left handed child and through years of emotional and physical abuse train that child to write with his right hand….but that child would still be left handed no matter what external behaviors are observed

Again, irrelevant to the conversation since it does not pertain to free will.

All available evidence suggests that sexual orientation is inborn just like race.

Redundant

One’s religion is not a product of free will?

I gave you one case of an individual with homosexual desires. Are you saying that in all the world of 6.8 billion people there is not one case as I described?

Again you could take a left handed child and through years of emotional and physical abuse train that child to write with his right hand….but that child would still be left handed no matter what external behaviors are observed.

It is important to note the vast numbers of s0 called “ex-gays” who latter recant their testimonies saying that they never changed sexual orientation and apologizing for lying to their friends and family and the public at large



As noted when researchers go hunting for such people they can’t find any it is also strange that ex-gay ministries lie Exodus claim to have helped change “hundreds of thousands” of homosexuals into heterosexuals but they can’t actually name any of these “hundreds of thousands” of people.

Thus Your premise is that just because you have the desire that you should act upon it other wise you are not being honest.

Please don’t misrepresent what I wrote…it is rude.

To lie and pretend to be heterosexual when one is not is dishonest

By definition homosexuality is a sexual drive.

Just like being heterosexual has nothing to do with love or emotional commitment or family…its just animalistic sex drive…right?

Irrelevant to the discussion at hand on the premise of free will.

To degrade and animalize a minority is standard procedure in justifying personal prejudice and discrimination

Rape has nothing to do with sexual drive? You are generalizing, If the sexual drive was not present (take it away) the rape physically could not happen. It is an act of power but a sexual desire.

You apparently don’t know anything about rape

I didn't say that it was, but you can lump it into the genetics of sexual drive.

Respectfully,


-William

You most certainly implied it was…again attempting to associate a minority to a sex crime

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Olliefranz,

If it is an "impulse desire," then why is it that young children, too young to understand sexual desires, and whose impulses are focused in other, non-sexual, areas, still know that they are different from their friends?

How is it that researchers can find evidence of these early differences? There are often objective, physiological differences between gay men and straight men, and some of these are even found in young children. If, as you appear to imply, homosexuality is a perversion of the natural order, then why is it that innocent children seem to be born "perverted"?

My question is how can researchers find evidence of differences when in my personal experience they don’t exist. My generation didn’t understand sex until puberty at the earliest, there were no natural sexual attraction/desire/orientation until then. Sadly ‘gay’ is such dysfunctional thinking that it perverts society, it could be the researchers have been paid or intimidated into producing results that other researchers could disprove.
As to perversion in Christian terms, we are all born perverted, the Biblical testimony shows that in Adam all die but in Christ all may live.
Why do you single out homosexual desires, don’t you get tempted to lie, steal and be greedy at all, or don’t you think they are sins either?

 

[brightmorningstar]

To BigBadWlf,

To degrade and animalize a minority is standard procedure in justifying personal prejudice and discrimination

Tough, these minority ideas are dysfunctional perverted and error, the ideas should be discriminated against, if the minority see themselves as having their identities in error then the message is God has much better plans for them to live life to the full.

 

[BigBadWlf]

To Olliefranz,

My question is how can researchers find evidence of differences when in my personal experience they don’t exist.

Because your personal experience is not evidence and defiantly not objective.

My generation didn’t understand sex until puberty at the earliest, there were no natural sexual attraction/desire/orientation until then. Sadly ‘gay’ is such dysfunctional thinking that it perverts society, it could be the researchers have been paid or intimidated into producing results that other researchers could disprove.

So you are saying there is a global conspiracy of thousands of researchers, scientists publishers doctors and statisticians to subvert your personal opinion.

Well that is certainly reasonable

 

[BigBadWlf]

To BigBadWlf,
Tough, these minority ideas are dysfunctional perverted and error, the ideas should be discriminated against, if the minority see themselves as having their identities in error then the message is God has much better plans for them to live life to the full.

So...black people are dysfunctional?

 

[OllieFranz]

As to the objective physiological differences, I'm wondering what you're referring to; if it's alleged differences observed in the brain, we have to ask what came first, the chicken or the egg. Behaviour patterns can alter the brain's physiology.

Yes, it is quite possible that there are other causes for the differences in brain structures -- including a patterning of the child's behavior. But for those differences to appear so early in life, the causes cannot be simply homosexual "impulse desires," as claimed in the post to which I was responding.

To Olliefranz,

My question is how can researchers find evidence of differences when in my personal experience they don’t exist.

How is it that you have "personal experience" of the precise biochemical differences between different children or, rather, the lack of such differences? Are you claiming to be an endocrinologist or an internist? Are you claiming to have participated in these long-term studies, watching these children grow up and seeing which ones turned out to be gay? Or perhaps you are claiming to be a neurosurgeon and to have seen the brains of these children?

 

[royaltybyadoption]

All available evidence suggests that sexual orientation is inborn just like left/right handedness.
Now one could take a left handed child and through years of emotional and physical abuse train that child to write with his right hand….but that child would still be left handed no matter what external behaviors are observed

All available evidence suggests that sexual orientation is inborn just like race.

I think you might have some great things to say on this topic, but you are handling it very poorly. You can't just type "All available evidence suggests..." and not back it up with citations or at least some credible examples. Really? All available evidence? If I brought that kind of statement to my university prof he would have thrown me out of the classroom.

You are doing your cause a disservice with this sloppy debating, which is sad, because I think there is some Godly truth in there somewhere.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm curious to read more of what you have, but you have to address the points properly. Also, you probably lost a lot of support when you didn't accurately respond to the "what is the role of scripture in providing a moral corrective?" question.

Reality check time --- you are in a Christian forum! Almost everyone here has spent some time with scripture and it is the basis of Christianity. If you don't base your argument from scripture you will not gain ground in these parts, my friend.