Heaven Or Hell

[CoreyD]

Rev 21:6 And He said to me, "It has come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give to him that thirsted of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 21:7 He that overcomes shall inherit these things; and I will be to him a God, and He will be to Me a son.

Rev 21:8 But, for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars, their part shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone; which is the second death."


I don't think Jesus can be anymore specific about what happens to those who are not His.

Jesus is specific, yes. However, many people do not seem to know what death is.
They think death is burning in hell, alive, or living in bliss in heaven.

Your verses highlight that there will indeed be blessings for the righteous, and death for the wicked.
However, they do not clear up what the OP is addressing.

We see from the scriptures, it's either life or death,, but regarding where life will be, that is the stage we are at.
The Bible is very clear that there will be life in heaven, and life on earth.

Most people who believe in God, are fixed on heavenly life, and this ignores God's purpose and will, which is expressly stated at Ephesians 1:6-10.
Throughout the Bible, this will is also revealed, from the promise to Abraham, right through to the Revelation to John. Genesis 22:18; Isaiah 65:17-25; Daniel 7:13, 14, 27; Psalm 37:11, 29; Matthew 5:5; Matthew 6:10; Revelation 21:1-5

The gospel, or good news of the kingdom is a very simple message, when one is willing to be taught, by God.
It is not understood, except by those commissioned to preach and teach it. Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:18-20.
So it takes humility to actually grasp this message... a quality sadly lacking in the majority of mankind.

There is nothing difficult about the message of the kingdom.

1. God's will is to have a united family both in heaven and earth. Genesis 1:26-28; Psalm 115:16; Acts 17:26
2. To rectify the problem of sin and death, and accomplish his will, God arranged for a kingdom in the hands of a reliable king, who will accomplish that purpose. Genesis 3:15; Genesis 49:10; Genesis 22:18; (This is where the nation of Israel comes in - The king would come through the line of Judah) Daniel 2:44; Daniel 7:13, 14, 27; Isaiah 9:6, 7; Luke 1:32, 33; Luke 22:28-30
3. Jesus the king, accomplishes all of God's will -
   • He redeems mankind from sin and death. Romans 5:15-17
   • He will restore the dead to life. John 11:25
   • He will finish off sin and death. Daniel 9:24
   • He will destroy all of God's enemies. Psalm 110:1, 2
   • He will accomplish God's will on earth. Matthew 6:10
4. Once God's will is accomplished, Christ hands the kingdom over to his father. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28

To make it even simpler, one can keep two basic things in mind - a couple scriptures from Daniel's prophecies, and truths surrounding those scriptures.
The scriptures:

• Daniel 2:44; Daniel 7:13, 14, 27; Daniel 9:6, 7

Basic truths from those scriptures:

• The kingdom is a government.
• A government has rulers, or kings.
• Christ is the king of God's government.
• Christ does not rule alone. He rules with heirs.
• A government has a domain - that the the area ruled over.
• The kingdom's domain is primarily earth, but includes the heavens as well.
• God's government thus rules over people, of all nations, and languages.
• The government's purpose is to bring complete and universal peace.
• God's will and purpose will be done, or accomplished. Matthew 6:10; Ephesians 1:10

That's quite simple, isn't it.
With this understanding persons... if humble... because not many are, since they want - not God's will, but their own ("I want to be in heaven", they demand), persons will come to appreciate that the earth is also very much a part of God's purpose, and it is for this purpose as well as God's interest in his name, that the kingdom, became a reality.
It is here on earth, where suffering and death, ensued. Romans 5:12-14
It is here on earth, where suffering and death will end. Revelation 21:3-5

 

[ARBITER01]

Your verses highlight that there will indeed be blessings for the righteous, and death for the wicked.
However, they do not clear up what the OP is addressing.

To be honest here,........I don't see how anything you just posted has anything to do with what you originally posted. Are you moving the goalposts to just hear yourself speak?

 

[CoreyD]

To be honest here,........I don't see how anything you just posted has anything to do with what you originally posted. Are you moving the goalposts to just hear yourself speak?

Perhaps you did not understand the OP, since from the third paragraph to the end of the OP has everything to do with what I just said, and what I have been saying, throughout the thread, including the current conversation with @Mercy Shown.
So, evidently you missed something.

 

[Mercy Shown]

Yes. Unfortunately, some people think the Church, or congregation, is an actual building, but yo are correct. The Church is the bride of Christ - the same bride described in Revelation. They are one and the same.
Which makes it even easier for us to see that not all righteous people are members of the body of Christ, since no individual living, and dying prior to Jesus establishing the Church, can be said to be Christ's body. Nor part of it.
Please see Matthew 16:18

Are you concluding by this one verse that a Christ did not preexist the cross and his incarnation? Was it not Christ who lead Israel through the desert is Christ not the land that was slain from the foundation of the Earth? I think there’s plenty in the Bible to indicate thatpeople in the Old Testament are saved the same way people in the New Testament by. Consider this passage from Corinthians 10 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

 

[CoreyD]

Are you concluding by this one verse that a Christ did not preexist the cross and his incarnation? Was it not Christ who lead Israel through the desert is Christ not the land that was slain from the foundation of the Earth? I think there’s plenty in the Bible to indicate thatpeople in the Old Testament are saved the same way people in the New Testament by. Consider this passage from Corinthians 10 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

You are not changing the topic, are you?
We are not back to whether, or not, or who are or are not saved, are we?
You haven't responded to my response to you. We are having a discussion, are we?

 

[Mercy Shown]

Christ has only one wife. The one described at Revelation 14:1; Revelation 21:9-14
They are all metaphors. From the city, to its 12 gates, to its pillars, right down to the 12 foundation stones, and the cornerstone, Jesus Christ.
Even bride and husband are metaphors.

These scriptures however, do not refer to all the saved.
The 144,000 on Mount Zion, are not the great multitude seen at Revelation 7:9.
Both groups however, are righteous.
Only one group - the 144,000, is the Bride of Christ.

Why do you dismiss the city as a metaphor and yet cling to the 144000 as literal?

 

[Mercy Shown]

Can you rephrase that statement please? I don't understand what you are saying.

I was dictating the answer on my phone and it should have read, "...In and of themselves..." rather the "...in and none themselves..."

 

[Mercy Shown]

I'm not sure what you mean by "outside of Christ".
Are you saying Christ is the city?

To be married to Chist is to be one with him as He is with The Father. “That they may be one as we are one” (John 17:11)

 

[Mercy Shown]

If you are saying the skéné: Tent, Tabernacle, Dwelling, does not refer to New Jerusalem, you need to explain how you arrive at it being something else, since the context is clear. Revelation 21:1 is connected to Revelation 21:2-4.

Regarding the Greek word skéné...
Word Origin: Derived from the Greek verb σκήνω (skēnō), meaning "to pitch a tent" or "to dwell."

Usually said to be a derivative of Proto-Indo-European *(s)ḱeh₃- (“shade, shadow”), originally referring to a light construction of cloth hung between tree branches to provide a shadow which could be used for shelter and other activities, though the vocalism is difficult to explain as full grade *sḱeh₃- gives σκω (skō) and zero grade *sḱh₃- gives σκο (sko).

Strong's Greek: 4633. σκηνή (skéné) -- a tent
σκηνή, σκηνῆς, ἡ (from the root, ska 'to cover' etc.; cf. σκιά, σκότος, etc.; Latincasa, cassis, castrum; English shade, etc.; Curtius, § 112; Vanicek, p. 1054f), from (Aeschylus), Sophocles and Thucydides down; the Sept. chiefly for אֹהֶל, often also for מִשְׁכָּן, also for סֻכָּה; a tent, tabernacle (made of green boughs, or skins, or other materials): Matthew 17:4; Mark 9:5; Luke 9:33; Hebrews 11:9; αἱ αἰώνιοι σκηναί (see αἰώνιος,

the Greek noun skene, which means "tent". This word appears in the Gospel (Mt 17:1-9) of the Second Sunday of Lent, year A, when, at the Transfiguration of the Lord, Peter suggests building 3 tents:...

The original word usage refers to a tent, of cover - tabernacle, in that sense.
If perrons prefer to picture some building, as if the verse is referring to a literal building, that's really their personal choice, but the verse certainly isn't saying heaven came down to earth, nor any city, for that matter.

The onus is on persons making such claim, to support them, and no scripture says New Jerusalem comes to earth.

A lot of copy and paste, but it does not address what I said. First of all, you are assuming I said things that I did not. Nowhere did I mention the new Jerusalem coming to earth. I simply stated, as the bibe does, that His dwelling will be with men. Saying that "the context is clear" does not make it so. No bible text states a one-to-one relationship between God's dwelling with men and that being the New Jerusalem.

Do you actually believe that the New Jeruselem is a huge tent? Of course not.

But all of this is over comilicating the fact that there will be two classes of people. The righteous who will dweal with God and the unrighteous who will be consigned to the lake of fire.

Rev 21:6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

 

[Mercy Shown]

You are not changing the topic, are you?
We are not back to whether, or not, or who are or are not saved, are we?
You haven't responded to my response to you. We are having a discussion, are we?

Not at all. I was responding directly to what you said which was: "Which makes it even easier for us to see that not all righteous people are members of the body of Christ, since no individual living, and dying prior to Jesus establishing the Church, can be said to be Christ's body. Nor part of it."

 

[CoreyD]

Why do you dismiss the city as a metaphor and yet cling to the 144000 as literal?

I will answer your question, and I hope you will be willing to answer mine.

I do not dismiss anything... unless it's untrue. I simply follow the scriptures.
The city New Jerusalem is not a literal structures, as can be seen from the scriptures.

You read the scriptures for yourself -Revelation 21:9-22:5; Revelation 19:7, 8, and here is your question.... Is the Lamb's wife a literal building, or the Saints, who are in a union as one with him? Please answer, at least this once.

No one need get the idea that heaven has some building that people will walk on streets of gold, as their pastors tell them.
Even the harlot - Babylon the great is s city, but no one thinks this is a literal city. Revelation 17:18-18:21
So why would anyone insist, or even suggest that New Jerusalem is a literal city, except for indoctrination?

Regarding the number 144,000, if any person claims that this number is not literal, that person is saying the number of those in heaven is either less than 144,000, or more.
In either case, they limit the number to a random number based on their own guess, or they make the number meaningless, by extending it to a number that no one can number.
Since that is attributed to the "vast crowd, too great to count", at Revelation 7:9, the text now becomes meaningless, and senseless.
It now reads,

4 And I heard the number of the sealed, a number that is unknown, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:​

9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands​

The text is rendered senseless.
The number of selected anointed sons of God, and kingdom heirs - 144,000 is given specifically, and contrasts with the great multitude seen with palm branches, serving God.
The number 144,000 is not problematic, since, the verses can contain both figurative and literal things - They are "servants of our God" Revelation 7:3; They are "redeemed from the earth" Revelation 14:3; They are "following the Lamb" and they have "been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb" Revelation 14:4;

The only problem with the number 144,000 being literal, lies with those who had the idea of heavenly life drilled into them from youth, onward, by teachings which come "through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron". 1 Timothy 4:2

The truth is, the scriptures do not refer to all the saved being in heaven.
The 144,000 on Mount Zion, are not the great multitude seen at Revelation 7:9.
Both groups however, are righteous.
Only one group - the 144,000, is the Bride of Christ.

Here is my next question to you.
Since the 144,000 is not the great multitude, what reason do you have for thinking that the great multitude is on Mount Zion with the 144,000?

 

[CoreyD]

I was dictating the answer on my phone and it should have read, "...In and of themselves..." rather the "...in and none themselves..."

Thanks, but its still not clear.
This, of course, does not preclude them from being actual objects in and none themselves such as the new Jerusalem being a city.

You would be saying, "This, of course, does not preclude them from being actual objects" but I do not understand how "in and none themselves" fits there.
Are you trying to say.... Well, I do not even know how to ask what you are saying.
You can say it another way, can't you? I'm totally clueless as to what you are trying to say.

 

[CoreyD]

To be married to Chist is to be one with him as He is with The Father. “That they may be one as we are one” (John 17:11)

Thank you.
I hope this is in harmony with your answer to my first question.
So, how is Christ married to the city? What is the import, and significance of that?

 

[CoreyD]

A lot of copy and paste, but it does not address what I said. First of all, you are assuming I said things that I did not. Nowhere did I mention the new Jerusalem coming to earth. I simply stated, as the bibe does, that His dwelling will be with men. Saying that "the context is clear" does not make it so. No bible text states a one-to-one relationship between God's dwelling with men and that being the New Jerusalem.

I'm not sure what made you conclude that I assumed you said anything.
However...

Revelation 21:1-5
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said [b]to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

After John sees the marriage of the lamb take place - New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, he heard a loud voice from heaven, declare “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
Then God himself who is seated on his throne in heaven - not on earth, says, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

It is due to this marriage taking place, and New Jerusalem descent from heaven, that this exclamation of the angel is made, and God's declaration is made.

Since reading these verses separately, as if they do not belong together, has no scriptural basis, and while it does not make sense to me, why anyone would want to do so, the context of any text matters, and should not be dismissed, for what ever reason.
Are you saying there is no context to these verses?

Do you actually believe that the New Jeruselem is a huge tent? Of course not.

Of course not. Thank God.
It is my understanding that the scriptures make clear that God's kingdom will rule the earth, that helps me to see the picture clearly.... which many commentators, interestingly enough, observe - God's kingdom rules.

That is the purpose God set it up. To accomplish his will in heaven, and on earth. Ephesians 1:10; Matthew 6:10
God's kingdom accomplishes his will on earth, as I referenced so many times in this thread,
Hence there is an end to sadness, pain, suffering, and death, since all those things - the old heaven and earth, are passed away, and all is new.

But all of this is over comilicating the fact that there will be two classes of people. The righteous who will dweal with God and the unrighteous who will be consigned to the lake of fire.

Rev 21:6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Remember. This is your claim.
Perhaps after you answer the question regarding those who are led to waters of life, and their distinction from those who are with the lamb, on Mount Zion, we can determine the truthfulness, or error, of your claim.

That's what this discussion is about, isn't it.
You claim the destiny of all the righteous is heavenly life.
I'm showing that all the righteous do not go to heaven, but earthly life remains a prospect for billions of righteous - a vast multitude too numerous to number.

 

[CoreyD]

Not at all. I was responding directly to what you said which was: "Which makes it even easier for us to see that not all righteous people are members of the body of Christ, since no individual living, and dying prior to Jesus establishing the Church, can be said to be Christ's body. Nor part of it."

Thank you, but you did go off course from what I said.
You started talking about saved ones, and Christ existing as the rock mass in the past.

For one thing, we aren't talking about saved or not saved, and that was made clear... or so I thought.
Second, saying that Jesus existed in the past, does not address when he set up and established the Church.

It's like someone talking to you about Christ's sacrifice, and you say, "Well the sacrificial lamb did lead the Israelites through the wilderness".
Okay, but does that tell us, when the sacrificial lamb was sacrificed? No. It does not.

I referred to the establishing of the Church.
So, let's discuss that.

We can even add some details.

• Christ was the first spirit anointed son of God. Matthew 3:15-17; John 1:30-34
• Followed by his first footstep followers - the apostles - who were anointed on the day of Pentecost 33 C.E. Acts 1:4, 5; Acts 2:1-4
• Christ is first in everything. Colossians 1:17-20; 1 Corinthians 15:20-23
• His apostles are first relative to him. Romans 8:23; Ephesians 1:8-14; James 1:18; Luke 22:28-30

The body of Christ, therefore, isn't anyone who proved righteous to God.
Rather, it is those selected to be spirit sons of God, in the heavens. Did you know these are Jesus' brothers?

So, here is another question for you.
At Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus said that the sheep - the righteous - are considered such, based on what they do for his brothers.
Do you dispute the distinction made between Christ's brothers and the righteous sheep?

 

[Dan Perez]

It's one or the other.

Have you heard this before?
Growing up, I have heard this, multiple times.... "The good go the heaven. The bad go to hell. One place (heaven) is rejoicing and bliss. The other place (Hell), is torment and anguish... eternally."

Then in my early 20s, I came to learn that this is not true at all. Thanks be to God.
All good people do not go to heaven, and bad people do not experience literal torment and anguish eternally.

What is interesting, is that I learned this truth from the Bible... the same book persons claim teaches the opposite.
What should you believe - (A) All good people go do heaven, and all bad people go to hell. Or (B) All good people do not go to heaven, and both bad and good people go to "hell"?

What the Bible says, is that B is correct, and A is not true.
This is very important to know, because it opens the door for us to know the truth, as taught in the Bible, and reveals the truth about our loved ones that have died, and their future, and ours.

Let's look at it together.
Let's start by asking three questions ...

1. Was King David a good man?
2. When King David died, did he go to heaven?
3. Where is King David now?

 

[Dan Perez]

Let's apply Jesus' words to the above.

Only those who believed in the promise (Ge 15:5, seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16) went to heaven, those who did not, or do not are condemned already (Jn 3:18)

Read what Luke 16:22 - 31 '

# 1 Lazarus is taken to ABRAHAM 's BOSOM

# 2 Notice that the rich man is in HELL

#3 His body is in a GRAVE

# 4 His spirit goes back to Christ that gave it to him , ECC 12:7 and this what happened to those under the Law of Moses .

# 5 His soul is in PARADISE


But we are NOT under the Law of MOSES or UNDER ATONEMENT


# 1 WE are the BODY OF CHRIST >

# 2 And are Body goes to a GRAVE

# 3 And the spirit and soul go to PARADISE as was Paul in 2 Cor 12:1-5

dan p

 

[Mercy Shown]

Thank you, but you did go off course from what I said.
You started talking about saved ones, and Christ existing as the rock mass in the past.

Yes, this is a counterexample to the idea that Christ did not have a church until after His death, but had one from the foundation of the earth.

For one thing, we aren't talking about saved or not saved, and that was made clear... or so I thought.
Second, saying that Jesus existed in the past, does not address when he set up and established the Church.

The point I was making is that all saved are righteous and will be with God. All lost will be unrighteous. (Rev 22:11)

It's like someone talking to you about Christ's sacrifice, and you say, "Well the sacrificial lamb did lead the Israelites through the wilderness".
Okay, but does that tell us, when the sacrificial lamb was sacrificed? No. It does not.

I assumed you were familiar with the Bible’s teaching that He was slain from the foundation of the world.

I referred to the establishing of the Church.
So, let's discuss that.

We can even add some details.

• Christ was the first spirit anointed son of God. Matthew 3:15-17; John 1:30-34

This was mentioned way before Matthew or John.

• Followed by his first footstep followers - the apostles - who were anointed on the day of Pentecost 33 C.E. Acts 1:4, 5; Acts 2:1-4
• Christ is first in everything. Colossians 1:17-20; 1 Corinthians 15:20-23
• His apostles are first relative to him. Romans 8:23; Ephesians 1:8-14; James 1:18; Luke 22:28-30

The body of Christ, therefore, isn't anyone who proved righteous to God.
Rather, it is those selected to be spirit sons of God, in the heavens. Did you know these are Jesus' brothers?

All believers who through faith have accepted God’s reconciliation, our brothers to Jesus. All of them will be in the city with God.

Roman’s 8:15 and Is 51:11

So, here is another question for you.
At Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus said that the sheep - the righteous - are considered such, based on what they do for his brothers.

Why do you assume that? Perhaps it is the other way around they ministered to Jesus by ministering to others BECAUSE they were saved by Grace and renewed by the spirit. There is no “because” in the text.

This model is redemption —> repentance —> restoration.

Do you dispute the distinction made between Christ's brothers and the righteous sheep?

Yes. Isaiah said, we like sheep have gone astray…but He laid the iniquity of us all on him (Christ).

 

[CoreyD]

Yes, this is a counterexample to the idea that Christ did not have a church until after His death, but had one from the foundation of the earth.

Not one scripture in the Bible says Christ had a church from the "foundation of the earth".

The point I was making is that all saved are righteous and will be with God.

All the saved are righteous, and I believe that was said about a dozen times in this thread.
Why do you repeat it?

All lost will be unrighteous. (Rev 22:11)

So, did Paul lie? Acts 24:15

I assumed you were familiar with the Bible’s teaching that He was slain from the foundation of the world.

I am familiar with what the Bible teaches about the founding of the world.
I'm also familiar with the misconception, regarding the use of that expression.

This was mentioned way before Matthew or John.

All believers who through faith have accepted God’s reconciliation, our brothers to Jesus. All of them will be in the city with God.

Roman’s 8:15 and Is 51:11

I understand you believe the sons of God are everyone believing through faith.
However, that's not what the scriptures say.

Why do you assume that? Perhaps it is the other way around they ministered to Jesus by ministering to others BECAUSE they were saved by Grace and renewed by the spirit. There is no “because” in the text.

Yes there is.

Matthew 25:39, 40
39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

whatever
ἐφ’ (eph’)
Preposition
Strong's 1909: On, to, against, on the basis of, at.

This model is redemption —> repentance —> restoration.

Yes. Isaiah said, we like sheep have gone astray…but He laid the iniquity of us all on him (Christ).

They are sheep, only because of what they do for Christ's brothers. Matthew 25:40
The goats are such because of what they did not do for Christ's brothers. Matthew 25:45

This is what the scriptures say regarding how the sheep and goats are identified.

 

[Mercy Shown]

Not one scripture in the Bible says Christ had a church from the "foundation of the earth".

The church of Christ includes both the children of Israel from the Old Testament and believers from the post-Pentecost era because Scripture presents God's people as one unified body across time. Paul teaches in Romans 11 that Gentile believers are grafted into the same "olive tree" as Israel, not a separate tree. Hebrews 11 affirms that Old Testament saints lived by faith in the promises of God, just as Christians do. Ephesians 2 further states that Christ broke down the dividing wall, making one new humanity from Jews and Gentiles. Thus, the church transcends time and ethnicity, encompassing all who belong to God through faith—from Abraham to the present.