Heaven Or Hell

[CoreyD]

When one makes an argument based upon a promise, that premise should be open for debate.

II am not seeing your point.
Perhaps you can help me.

Right now, the way I am seeing this, is like the following scenario.
A couple elders approach a brother, and admonishes him that his shirt is too tight.
The brother looks at the elders, and says, "It's not a shirt."
Okay..... after some words of acknowledgement, the elders kindly let the brother know, that is not the point, or the subject of their concern.
The brother says, 'but you need to address that, since you made a premise about a shirt'.

I don't know how you see that, but I see it as the brother ignoring the issue to detract to a non-issue, and probably waste the elders time.
How do you see it, and how is this different to persons focusing, on... not the subject, but a non-essential, that's not relevant to the subject.

No one is righteous until God declares them so. You say: As for me, I am trying my best not to practice sin, and I know that God considers me righteous, when I do so.

Okay.

This seems to infer that your righteousness is based on what you do and not on what God does. I do not practice sin because God grants me his righteousness.

Okay.

Now before you get on my case about derailing this thread, please consider that you made your original position in post 1 based on what you claim are “good” people and “bad” people. Is it not therefore apropos to examine what consists of a “ good person” and a “bad person.” Or are you expecting everyone to argue on the basis of your judgement and conclusions?

The OP does not make any claims about what are good people and bad people.
Can you please point out the exact words to such a claim?

Yes, I have. Have you considered the scriptures I quoted? How do you refute these? All truly good people will be saved and all truly bad people will be lost if we use God’s judgements as the standard.

I both acknowledged, and responded to the scriptures you quoted, but you have asked the same question twice, although I have said the same thing you asked.
However, they do not relate to the subject of the OP, nor the question you raised, which pertain to heavenly life, or otherwise.

The thread isn't about whether people will be saved or not. I did say that before.

 

[Mercy Shown]

II am not seeing your point.
Perhaps you can help me.

Right now, the way I am seeing this, is like the following scenario.
A couple elders approach a brother, and admonishes him that his shirt is too tight.
The brother looks at the elders, and says, "It's not a shirt."
Okay..... after some words of acknowledgement, the elders kindly let the brother know, that is not the point, or the subject of their concern.
The brother says, 'but you need to address that, since you made a premise about a shirt'.

I don't know how you see that, but I see it as the brother ignoring the issue to detract to a non-issue, and probably waste the elders time.
How do you see it, and how is this different to persons focusing, on... not the subject, but a non-essential, that's not relevant to the subject.

If the topic is about a shirt being too tight, then a shirt must necessarily be part of that conversation. Thus, if the topic is, are there good people in do all good people go to heaven, then goodness must be part of the conversation. For instance, if I think a person is good because they give money to the poor and they don’t cuss or swear, and they follow the rules of my church perhaps I’m missing the point of what being good is. Since Christ told us that only God is good in order for a person to be good then, they must have God’s goodness.

All good people will be saved and safe in Christ. Many people whom we judge as good but are not, so will not be saved and safe in Christ. The short answer to your question is yes, all good people will be saved and safe in Christ for eternity.

Okay.


Okay.


The OP does not make any claims about what are good people and bad people.
Can you please point out the exact words to such a claim?

It is inferred by suggesting that not all good people are saved or go to heaven. How can you make such a truth claim without defining what good is? You quoted a verse from the old covenant as your definition of good and yet Romans also has a definition of good, which is faith. Faith is what is counted for righteousness not works.

The works of righteousness are not righteousness itself. Works of righteousness come from a righteous heart and a righteous heart as a gift of God to us by faith.

Therefore, we are saved by grace and not of works less any should boast. So all good people will be those who are saved by grace and they will be with God forever.

I both acknowledged, and responded to the scriptures you quoted, but you have asked the same question twice, although I have said the same thing you asked.
However, they do not relate to the subject of the OP, nor the question you raised, which pertain to heavenly life, or otherwise.

The thread isn't about whether people will be saved or not. I did say that before.

I think you’re trying to make a distinction without a difference. Under what possible scenario will a good person not be in heaven?

 

[CoreyD]

If the topic is about a shirt being too tight, then a shirt must necessarily be part of that conversation.

The tightness of the shirt, or whether or not it's a shirt?

Thus, if the topic is, are there good people in do all good people go to heaven, then goodness must be part of the conversation.

The topic is not "are there good people in do all good people go to heaven".

For instance, if I think a person is good because they give money to the poor and they don’t cuss or swear, and they follow the rules of my church perhaps I’m missing the point of what being good is. Since Christ told us that only God is good in order for a person to be good then, they must have God’s goodness.

That is not relevant to whether or not it is true that all good people go to heaven.

All good people will be saved and safe in Christ. Many people whom we judge as good but are not, so will not be saved and safe in Christ. The short answer to your question is yes, all good people will be saved and safe in Christ for eternity.

The subject is not about whether good people or righteous people will be saved or not.

It is inferred by suggesting that not all good people are saved or go to heaven.

Saved is not the same thing as go to heaven.

How can you make such a truth claim without defining what good is?

I did not make any such claim.
The OP seems not to be clear to you.

You quoted a verse from the old covenant as your definition of good and yet Romans also has a definition of good, which is faith. Faith is what is counted for righteousness not works.

The works of righteousness are not righteousness itself. Works of righteousness come from a righteous heart and a righteous heart as a gift of God to us by faith.

Therefore, we are saved by grace and not of works less any should boast. So all good people will be those who are saved by grace and they will be with God forever.

I think you’re trying to make a distinction without a difference. Under what possible scenario will a good person not be in heaven?

I think you changed the subject all together.
It might help if you read the OP again, and respond to it.

Suppose we all agree on what makes a person good or righteous. The OP is saying that heaven is not the destination of all the good, or righteous, or saved.
I have provided you the links that address your question.

 

[Mercy Shown]

Saved is not the same thing as go to heaven.

Are you suggesting that some saved people will not go to heaven?

 

[Mercy Shown]

The tightness of the shirt, or whether or not it's a shirt?


The topic is not "are there good people in do all good people go to heaven".


That is not relevant to whether or not it is true that all good people go to heaven.


The subject is not about whether good people or righteous people will be saved or not.


Saved is not the same thing as go to heaven.


I did not make any such claim.
The OP seems not to be clear to you.


I think you changed the subject all together.
It might help if you read the OP again, and respond to it.

Suppose we all agree on what makes a person good or righteous. The OP is saying that heaven is not the destination of all the good, or righteous, or saved.
I have provided you the links that address your question.

Your premise “All good people do not go to heaven, and both bad and good people go to hell” is faulty unless you use a different definition of “good” than Christ used.

My point is that it is God who declares people good or bad.and it is He who brings all the good into his kingdom.

 

[CoreyD]

Are you suggesting that some saved people will not go to heaven?

You didn't read the posts carefully then. Would you like to take a look at it again.
I asked another poster to tell me what they got from it, but they never responded.
Perhaps you can give a brief summary of what you find there. Here is the link again.

Your premise “All good people do not go to heaven, and both bad and good people go to hell” is faulty unless you use a different definition of “good” than Christ used.

Thank you.
I am looking for someone to point out the fault... using the scriptures.
The thread offers an open discussion on the subject.
Please show me the fault.

My point is that it is God who declares people good or bad.and it is He who brings all the good into his kingdom.

Can you show me in the Bible, please, where Christ "brings all the good into his kingdom"?

 

[Mercy Shown]

Can you show me in the Bible, please, where Christ "brings all the good into his kingdom"?

For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. ~
Romans 14:17 This establishes that the kingdom of God will be made up of righteousness, and all who are there will be righteous. Who will be left out? Let's see what the bible says? “How blessed are those who wash their robes! The Tree of Life is theirs for good, and they’ll walk through the gates to the City. But outside for good are the filthy curs: sorcerers, fornicators, murderers, idolaters—all who love and live lies." Rev 14-15 Now we see a picture emerging of those who have been washed clean and by Christ's blood vs. those who have not and one cannot honestly say that any of those who are without are good.

The basis for the verdict of God's judgement is found in John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. There is no room for good people to be left out of the kingdom. And there is no room for bad people in the kingdom. So unless you have a different definition of good and bad then the bible is pretty clear on the matter.

God said that the soul that sins shall die. He never says that the soul of a good man will die. All who wash their robes in the blood of the lamb are made perfect forever. (Heb 14:10) If God says you are perfect forever, who can call you a bad person?

 

[CoreyD]

Thank you for the scriptures.

For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. ~
Romans 14:17 This establishes that the kingdom of God will be made up of righteousness, and all who are there will be righteous.

Of course.

Who will be left out? Let's see what the bible says? “How blessed are those who wash their robes! The Tree of Life is theirs for good, and they’ll walk through the gates to the City. But outside for good are the filthy curs: sorcerers, fornicators, murderers, idolaters—all who love and live lies." Rev 14-15 Now we see a picture emerging of those who have been washed clean and by Christ's blood vs. those who have not and one cannot honestly say that any of those who are without are good.

This is a very good scripture, you chose to support your statement. Beautiful.
However, the perspective one has does affect how that verse is understood in relation to the statement made.

For example , at Revelation 21:1-5, it does show that people are "outside the city", which is New Jerusalem - Revelation 3:12... and these are righteous people, according to Revelation 21:3, 4.
Also, please see Revelation 21:22-27

So, it's a matter of how one is using, the phrase "in the kingdom".
There are those, "in the kingdom", in that they are actual citizens of the kingdom (Philippians 3:20) since they are ruling in it from the heavens, and there are those, who are the subjects of the kingdom - that is, they submit to the kingdom's rule... For one, angels, who aren't ruling in the kingdom, and people on earth, who aren't in the kingdom, as rulers, but can be "in the kingdom", as subjects of the kingdom.
Please see Daniel 7:13, 14, 27

Hence, to be in harmony with the scriptures, we must recognize the entirety of the kingdom - that is, the ruling part, and the domain - what's being ruled over - Revelation 5:9, 10; Revelation 14:1-4.

I actually am working on a... I guess you can call it illustration of the Bible's message.
It demonstrates the entirety of the kingdom... to a degree, since it's not finished.
You can take a look at it, and I would be interested in anything you find wrong with it.
Revealing Secrets.

The basis for the verdict of God's judgement is found in John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. There is no room for good people to be left out of the kingdom. And there is no room for bad people in the kingdom. So unless you have a different definition of good and bad then the bible is pretty clear on the matter.

The problem is more with the phrase "in the kingdom", and what that means to a person.
Once we get agreement on that, we should be good.

God said that the soul that sins shall die.

Beautiful.
Wholeheartedly agree.

He never says that the soul of a good man will die.

What do you say to these scriptures?

He poured out His soul unto death - Isaiah 53:12​

​

Acts 2:24-27​

24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:​

‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.​

26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.​

27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.​

All who wash their robes in the blood of the lamb are made perfect forever. (Heb 14:10) If God says you are perfect forever, who can call you a bad person?

Does Hebrews have 14 Chapters?
From which store did you purchase your Bible? I just want to know so I can warn people not to go there.

 

[Mercy Shown]

For example , at Revelation 21:1-5, it does show that people are "outside the city", which is New Jerusalem - Revelation 3:12... and these are righteous people, according to Revelation 21:3, 4.
Also, please see Revelation 21:22-27

This does not show righteous people outside the city. But be that as it may you may need to consider the Bible’s use of metaphors.

 

[CoreyD]

This does not show righteous people outside the city. But be that as it may you may need to consider the Bible’s use of metaphors.

You do not consider these righteous?
Revelation 7:15-17; Revelation 21:3, 4
Well Jesus does, so you should agree with Jesus, shouldn't you?

What are you saying about metaphors here?

 

[Mercy Shown]

You do not consider these righteous?
Revelation 7:15-17; Revelation 21:3, 4
Well Jesus does, so you should agree with Jesus, shouldn't you?

What are you saying about metaphors here?

They are righteous and they are in the New Jerusalem. Where does it indicate that they are not.

 

[CoreyD]

They are righteous and they are in the New Jerusalem. Where does it indicate that they are not.

I showed you where a moment ago. You are reading my posts, aren't you?
I noticed you have not address that point, nor the questions I asked.
Isn't it supposed to be a discussion?

 

[Mercy Shown]

I showed you where a moment ago. You are reading my posts, aren't you?
I noticed you have not address that point, nor the questions I asked.
Isn't it supposed to be a discussion?

I can’t address an unproven assertion. There is nothing in the quoted scripture you provided the indicates that they are outside the city.

 

[CoreyD]

I can’t address an unproven assertion. There is nothing in the quoted scripture you provided the indicates that they are outside the city.

You consider a body of facts that someone provides, and comments on, to be an assertion?

That's not what an assertion is.
An assertion is
Something declared or stated positively, often with no support or attempt at proof.

For example, exactly like this...
He never says that the soul of a good man will die.
That's an assertion. Where no evidence is provided, or no attempt is made at supporting the statement.
Just a bold blanket statement.

Also, when answering to, or addressing what one thinks is an assertion, making an assertion, does not address the "assertion". It's simply a wave of the hand... like this...

For example...
This does not show righteous people outside the city. But...
They are righteous and they are in the New Jerusalem.
No evidence, nor any attempt at supporting the assertions.

To address assertions, one must provide some evidence against them.
For example...

What do you say to these scriptures?​

He poured out His soul unto death - Isaiah 53:12​

Acts 2:24-27​

24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:​

‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.​

26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.​

27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.​

When the person becomes silent - has no response, or runs away, the assertion has been thoroughly addressed, and debunked, and the person, is either too ashamed to admit it, or not honest and humble enough to do so.

For example, when Jesus put a scriptural question to the Pharisees, and they knew the answer, but refused to give an answer. Matthew 22:41-46
By using evidence against their many claims, Jesus exposed their dishonesty by using the scriptures - facts.

I hope that helps you put an assertion in proper perspective.

With that said though, I can provide more facts.
What and where is the city?
The answer from the Bible is...

The city is New Jerusalem. Revelation 3:12
New Jerusalem isn't an actual literal city. It is the Bride of Christ - given as wife in marriage. Revelation 21:9-14 ...Which takes place, as John sees...
The city - New Jerusalem "coming down out of heaven from God, beautifully dressed as a bride for her husband. Revelation 21:2
New Jerusalem is not said to be on earth, as many assert, but is a "tent" or "tabernacle" over mankind on earth Revelation 21:3, as Jesus Christ - high priest, king and judge, serves with his "wife" - the New Jerusalem, which is made up of 144,000 kings, judges and priests. Revelation 14:1; Revelation 5:9, 10; Revelation 20:4, 6

Where are those, whom God is with, and whom are led to waters of life, and their tears are wiped from their face?
Revelation 21:1-4
The earth made new.

Thus, these ones are not in the New Jerusalem, nor make it up, since it's not a literal place, but the bride of Christ, which is the holy ones.
The people on earth are not the bride, which is on heavenly Mount Zion. Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 14:1
Please state what you disagree with, and any scripture that says otherwise.