For those that believe healing is in the atonement

[mwallie]

I find healing to be for today in scripture. I have heard arguments against it but none of them have convinced me. I still see healing in the atonement.

With that said, I do still struggle greatly with the fact that most people do not experience healing. I myself haven't. For myself I can say it's a lack of faith. Having never experienced any kind of healing for myself or anyone in my family, it causes me to doubt.

I do have issues with everyone else. Sure we can assume that so many don't get healed due to a lack of faith. There are plenty of scriptures to back this up. However, I don't think we can use that excuse for all of them.

For those that do believe in healing for today, how to you make sense of the immense lack of healing within the church, especially from believers that do believe God wants us well? If it's not always do to a lack of faith, what else could it be? Sin? Disobedience? Do you believe that teachers that teach healing are doing the church a disservice by not going into reasons why prayers are unanswered? It's all "God wants you well" and "believe and receive". The sad part is that most of their congregation still doesn't experience healing.

I really need help with this. It's causing a great deal of doubt for me. Not doubt that scriptures teach healing because imo they do. I would have to reinterpret scriptures according to what I see and base it off of experiences in order to say that scriptures doesn't teach it. I refuse to do that. Doubt more in the sense that the Bible is true is what I struggle with now.

Hope this makes sense. I just read yet another story of a lady this evening that believes in healing. She did everything right and was diagnosed twice with cancer. Very frustrating which is why I came here for some wisdom.

I'm asking for responses from those that do believe in healing in the atonement please.

 

[Always in His Presence]

There is not one instance where someone came to Jesus, asked to be healed and was told no, or wait, or it is not God’s will.

Jesus is the same today.

We can start there

 

[mwallie]

There is not one instance where someone came to Jesus, asked to be healed and was told no, or wait, or it is not God’s will.

Jesus is the same today.

We can start there

Yes, I agree 100%. We're just not seeing it in most cases. I'm not seeing it in my life and sadly most believers don't either. I often assumed it was due to lack of faith but wondering if it's more than that.

 

[jiminpa]

I think that the thread of doubt runs deeper than our trust in God's word, and I say that of myself too. Those who are have been viewed as church teachers nearly from the beginning have been teaching, "did God really say?," and it has worked in like yeast, just as Jesus said. In the life of Jesus we see that He could do little in the presence of the intense disbelief of His home town. Such disbelief has become an emblem of courage in the church. The Bible is clear where there is no real belief, God is hindered. That is the state of contemporary Christianity, me included.

 

[Guojing]

Yes, I agree 100%. We're just not seeing it in most cases. I'm not seeing it in my life and sadly most believers don't either. I often assumed it was due to lack of faith but wondering if it's more than that.

Ever thought of considering what your apostle Paul spoke to you in 2 Corinthians 4:16-18?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I find healing to be for today in scripture. I have heard arguments against it but none of them have convinced me. I still see healing in the atonement.

With that said, I do still struggle greatly with the fact that most people do not experience healing. I myself haven't. For myself I can say it's a lack of faith. Having never experienced any kind of healing for myself or anyone in my family, it causes me to doubt.

I do have issues with everyone else. Sure we can assume that so many don't get healed due to a lack of faith. There are plenty of scriptures to back this up. However, I don't think we can use that excuse for all of them.

For those that do believe in healing for today, how to you make sense of the immense lack of healing within the church, especially from believers that do believe God wants us well? If it's not always do to a lack of faith, what else could it be? Sin? Disobedience? Do you believe that teachers that teach healing are doing the church a disservice by not going into reasons why prayers are unanswered? It's all "God wants you well" and "believe and receive". The sad part is that most of their congregation still doesn't experience healing.

I really need help with this. It's causing a great deal of doubt for me. Not doubt that scriptures teach healing because imo they do. I would have to reinterpret scriptures according to what I see and base it off of experiences in order to say that scriptures doesn't teach it. I refuse to do that. Doubt more in the sense that the Bible is true is what I struggle with now.

Hope this makes sense. I just read yet another story of a lady this evening that believes in healing. She did everything right and was diagnosed twice with cancer. Very frustrating which is why I came here for some wisdom.

I'm asking for responses from those that do believe in healing in the atonement please.

It is easy to blame sick people for not getting themselves healed. But is it their fault? If a person is steadfast in his belief that God is his healer, and that there is no sin in his life, and is still not healed, then the problem must be elsewhere. We must then look at the references to divine healing and ask the following questions:
1. Who was it originally written to, and how did the readers understand it?
2. The people who travelled through the wilderness in the Exodus never got sick because God promised that they wouldn't. Is the promise, "I am the Lord who heals you" to them relevant to us today?
3. If divine healing was guaranteed for First Century believers, how come Paul didn't heal members of his own ministry team?
4. If Jesus' healing ministry was for the lost sheep of Israel and limited to His ministry in Israel, can we use it as an example for modern healing ministry?
5. Did Peter and John heal every sick person around the temple, or just that one lame man? And, did Peter's shadow actually healed people, or did people hope that if his shadow fell on them they might be healed. Read that reference carefully.
6. Is the main purpose and ministry for the empowerment of believers by the Holy Spirit for a healing ministry or to get lost sinners saved?
7. Is a person healed when the symptoms of the sickness disappear and an Xray shows a cancer or heart condition no longer there when it was in a previous Xray, or when a healing evangelist declares that the person is healed in spite of the symptoms still being present?
8. If the New Testament guarantees instant healing, and there are references that say that for sure (we must carefully search the New Testament to make sure that there are definite and hard and fast promises), then why is the norm that people are not healed instantly through prayer and the laying on of hands?
9. In connection with that, although there are promises of healing in the Old Testament, are there any definite promises of guaranteed healing through prayer and the laying on of hands for Christian believers? We know that Mark 16 mentions healing as a sign connected with the great commission, because that is the context of that passage. The passage seems to hint that those who believe can lay hands on sick people and see them healed. It doesn't say that they receive healing for themselves.
10. James mentions that the church elders have a ministry for sick people. Does that mean that every time a sick person calls upon the elders for prayer, they will be instantly healed on the spot? Does that what "the Lord will raise him up" means? If that is so, why doesn't it happen except in very rare cases?
11. If there is enough power to cause a person to be "slain in the Spirit", then why is there insufficient power to heal him if he has a medical condition?

These are questions that we must ask if we are to accurately divide the word of truth.

If a so-called healing ministry is not working and no one is getting healed, then to continue flogging the dead horse in the hope that something might start to happen if we persevere long enough, is like playing the pokies in the hope that we might get a jackpot at some stage. If the car won't start in the morning, do we keep trying to start it until the battery runs down, or do we find out what the problem is and find out how to fix it?

The prosperity, guaranteed healing preachers who declare healing "in faith", are like the person whose car won't start, saying, "The car has started by faith, and when I get in and put it into gear and put my foot on the accelerator, it will go." If that is as ridiculous as it sounds, then consider those who are adamant that God guarantees healing when no one actually gets healed.

 

[jiminpa]

It is easy to blame sick people for not getting themselves healed. But is it their fault? If a person is steadfast in his belief that God is his healer, and that there is no sin in his life, and is still not healed, then the problem must be elsewhere. We must then look at the references to divine healing and ask the following questions:
1. Who was it originally written to, and how did the readers understand it?
2. The people who travelled through the wilderness in the Exodus never got sick because God promised that they wouldn't. Is the promise, "I am the Lord who heals you" to them relevant to us today?
3. If divine healing was guaranteed for First Century believers, how come Paul didn't heal members of his own ministry team?
4. If Jesus' healing ministry was for the lost sheep of Israel and limited to His ministry in Israel, can we use it as an example for modern healing ministry?
5. Did Peter and John heal every sick person around the temple, or just that one lame man? And, did Peter's shadow actually healed people, or did people hope that if his shadow fell on them they might be healed. Read that reference carefully.
6. Is the main purpose and ministry for the empowerment of believers by the Holy Spirit for a healing ministry or to get lost sinners saved?
7. Is a person healed when the symptoms of the sickness disappear and an Xray shows a cancer or heart condition no longer there when it was in a previous Xray, or when a healing evangelist declares that the person is healed in spite of the symptoms still being present?
8. If the New Testament guarantees instant healing, and there are references that say that for sure (we must carefully search the New Testament to make sure that there are definite and hard and fast promises), then why is the norm that people are not healed instantly through prayer and the laying on of hands?
9. In connection with that, although there are promises of healing in the Old Testament, are there any definite promises of guaranteed healing through prayer and the laying on of hands for Christian believers? We know that Mark 16 mentions healing as a sign connected with the great commission, because that is the context of that passage. The passage seems to hint that those who believe can lay hands on sick people and see them healed. It doesn't say that they receive healing for themselves.
10. James mentions that the church elders have a ministry for sick people. Does that mean that every time a sick person calls upon the elders for prayer, they will be instantly healed on the spot? Does that what "the Lord will raise him up" means? If that is so, why doesn't it happen except in very rare cases?
11. If there is enough power to cause a person to be "slain in the Spirit", then why is there insufficient power to heal him if he has a medical condition?

These are questions that we must ask if we are to accurately divide the word of truth.

If a so-called healing ministry is not working and no one is getting healed, then to continue flogging the dead horse in the hope that something might start to happen if we persevere long enough, is like playing the pokies in the hope that we might get a jackpot at some stage. If the car won't start in the morning, do we keep trying to start it until the battery runs down, or do we find out what the problem is and find out how to fix it?

The prosperity, guaranteed healing preachers who declare healing "in faith", are like the person whose car won't start, saying, "The car has started by faith, and when I get in and put it into gear and put my foot on the accelerator, it will go." If that is as ridiculous as it sounds, then consider those who are adamant that God guarantees healing when no one actually gets healed.

In the end the argument comes down to is God's word true or not? That's it. Is the healing that is promised in multiple places in the scripture available to those who believe or is God a liar? Those are the choices.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

In the end the argument comes down to is God's word true or not? That's it. Is the healing that is promised in multiple places in the scripture available to those who believe or is God a liar? Those are the choices.

If a particular interpretation of a Scripture involving healing is true, then people will get healed on a routine basis. If people are not healed on the routine basis as the result of applying that interpretation of Scripture, then one must carefully do an exegesis of that Scripture to determine whether one can apply it to provide guaranteed routine instant healing. God does not lie, but interpretations can be inaccurate.

 

[jiminpa]

If a particular interpretation of a Scripture involving healing is true, then people will get healed on a routine basis. If people are not healed on the routine basis as the result of applying that interpretation of Scripture, then one must carefully do an exegesis of that Scripture to determine whether one can apply it to provide guaranteed routine instant healing. God does not lie, but interpretations can be inaccurate.

You keep making the argument that experience is the measure of scripture. Um, no!

 

[jiminpa]

God makes promises. Most of them require trusting faith to obtain. My lack of faith does not negate the validity of the promises. Yes, in His mercy He sometimes grants those promises apart from that trust. You can't cite the result of our faithlessness as proof that scripture is lacking.

To put it in very carnal terms if A+B=C, you can't remove B and claim that the lack of C proves the non-existence of A.

 

[trophy33]

There is not one instance where someone came to Jesus, asked to be healed and was told no, or wait, or it is not God’s will.

Jesus is the same today.

We can start there

If its the same today, why does it not work in the same way? Instead, people in "healing denominations" are taught positive proclamations, (auto)suggestions, visualizations, praying in tongues, singing and other ways of (they say) spiritual warfare and they are doing it for months, even years. And most of them fail. In mega churches, instead of instant healing, they just fall on the ground in a hypnotic shock.

So, obviously, its different now.

 

[Guojing]

If its the same today, why does it not work in the same way? Instead, people in "healing denominations" are taught positive proclamations, (auto)suggestions, visualizations, praying in tongues, singing and other ways of (they say) spiritual warfare and they are doing it for months, even years. And most of them fail. In mega churches, instead of instant healing, they just fall on the ground in a hypnotic shock.

So, obviously, its different now.

That frequently misapplied verse is about the characteristics of Jesus, not his actions.

Otherwise he will still be at the cross yesterday today a forever

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You keep making the argument that experience is the measure of scripture. Um, no!

The fact that no one is getting healed of serious medical conditions shows that there is something very wrong with people's interpretation of Scripture.

 

[jiminpa]

The fact that no one is getting healed of serious medical conditions shows that there is something very wrong with people's interpretation of Scripture.

2 problems. 1. No one you know of is getting healed of serious medical conditions. 2. If it is the case, it shows that there is something very wrong with the health of the body.

Why is it that in places that haven't heard, "well God just doesn't do that anymore," more than they've heard the Gospel, miracles, including spectacular healings, are like child's play when people hear the word?

 

[mwallie]

Ever thought of considering what your apostle Paul spoke to you in 2 Corinthians 4:16-18?

Currently, I see that as speaking of persecution.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

2 problems. 1. No one you know of is getting healed of serious medical conditions. 2. If it is the case, it shows that there is something very wrong with the health of the body.

Why is it that in places that haven't heard, "well God just doesn't do that anymore," more than they've heard the Gospel, miracles, including spectacular healings, are like child's play when people hear the word?

It can't be child's play when healing is preached and nothing happens. The present state of the healing ministry is just talk and very little more. Even in the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry, which is touted as one of the foremost Charismatic educational faculties concerning the supernatural healing ministry, when Covid hit, most of the students got sick and they had to close the school. So it seems they had the theory all sewn up, but when it was put to the test with the onset of Covid, the theory ended up as nothing more than talk.

I'm not doubting the sincerity of those who are running that school. Out of everyone involved in the healing ministry, they are doing the best they can to strengthen their students' belief and faith in God's willingness and ability to bestow supernatural healing. The problem is not in them. One could say that the problem is in the light bulb, and instead of kicking each other, we need to find out what the problem is and how it can be solved.

 

[Guojing]

Currently, I see that as speaking of persecution.

Yes, many WOF preachers I have interacted with, Barry Bennett being one of them, teaches this.

I am curious though, is there anything in Paul's writing that allows one to exclude physical illnesses from this "outward man perishing"?

How do you come to this conclusion?

 

[mwallie]

Yes, many WOF preachers I have interacted with, Barry Bennett being one of them, teaches this.

I am curious though, is there anything in Paul's writing that allows one to exclude physical illnesses from this "outward man perishing"?

How do you come to this conclusion?

Paul’s teachings speak highly of persecution. Even his thorn in the flesh had to do with persecution. I know that you don't see the things that Jesus said as for us, but Jesus never spoke of illness in a positive light nor that it is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory. He associated it with bondage. Also, if we look to the OT, it was always punishment due to disobedience, unbelief etc. This current belief that the church has that sickness is somehow good for us goes against the overall message of scripture. Sorry I'm running errands so can't get into a much more in depth response.

I'm not here to discuss if healing is for today though. I have heard the arguments against it many times and yet I still see it in scripture. In this thread, I'm more interested in views from those that agree it is for today in hopes of digging deeper as to why we don't see it as much.

 

[Guojing]

Paul’s teachings speak highly of persecution. Even his thorn in the flesh had to do with persecution. I know that you don't see the things that Jesus said as for us, but Jesus never spoke of illness in a positive light nor that it is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory. He associated it with bondage. Also, if we look to the OT, it was always punishment due to disobedience, unbelief etc. This current belief that the church has that sickness is somehow good for us goes against the overall message of scripture. Sorry I'm running errands so can't get into a much more in depth response.

I agree that in the OT, it was always punishment due to disobedience and unbelief but that was under the Law

Under the Law, God literally promised Israel that if they obey him, they will never fall sick (Deuteronomy 7:15, Exodus 15:26)

Under the promised kingdom of heaven on Earth, no one in Israel will be maim or sick too (Isaiah 33:24, Psalms 103:1-5.

Israel broke their covenant of Law that was given at Mount Sinai. They killed or ignored all the prophets that God repeatedly sent to them when they were separated into 2 kingdoms and went into captivity under Babylon, and then under Persia. (Matthew 21:33-46; Mark 12:1-12; Luke 20:9-19).

Thus, at the time of Jesus's first coming to Israel, many people in Israel are sick, demon possessed, precisely because they have forsaken that Law covenant. (Luke 13:11, Acts 3:2)

Jesus thus healed all of them to give them a taste of what life in that kingdom would be. Acts 10:38 is an especially beautiful summary by Peter to show that

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

But now, God no longer relates to us under the Law (Romans 6:14, 1 Timothy 1:9).

So when we believers are sick nowadays, we can be rest assured that it is not because we have disobeyed God in anyway.

Conversely, if we find ourselves getting better, it is NOT because we are currently doing something that pleases God.

That is what I believe Paul is teaching us now when he shared with us Romans 8:18-25 and 2 Corinthians 4:16-18, and when he gave Timothy common sense advice regarding his frequent stomach aliments.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

It is easy to blame sick people for not getting themselves healed. But is it their fault? If a person is steadfast in his belief that God is his healer, and that there is no sin in his life, and is still not healed, then the problem must be elsewhere. We must then look at the references to divine healing and ask the following questions....

The thing is, I know of no teachers of healing in the atonement that do or say this.
Nobody is trying to lay blame as if it is someone's fault. That is an invention, or distraction, by the opponents. In debate forums, we call this "pinching the baby." You pinch the baby ("They are saying you do not have faith, and it is all your fault!") and then point the finger at those who believe that healing is included in the atonement. I, for one, am simply saying that if someone insists on laying blame, we can discount God immediately. If there has to be blame (which there is not), then it is certainly not God! He is not to blame for anything. So why bring up the accusations of blame at all? We are not talking about blame, nor are we accusing anyone. That is just a tricky distraction. In today's culture, we call it "triggering" someone. There are reasons why people are not walking in health. Paul listed several. One was not discerning the Lord's body. Another was the devil. Another was simply a lack of knowledge about what Christ has done for us in the atonement... which, in the end, is the most basic and fundamental reason. If there is a fault, I will lay it at the feet of people who seek to dissuade believers from this truth. When we suggest God does not want to heal us, then that is an insurmountable doubt in the hearts and minds of the sick ones. They just give up because what is the point of trying to get healed if God wants us sick? It only takes one doubt to subvert faith for healing.
The answer is to find the reason why healing does not come and attack that. If it is not God's "fault" (and it is not), then what is it?
I have found in my own life it may require some confession and humbling. And that is scriptural. Before I begin to blame God, I will humble myself and believe His word. I must humble myself under the mighty hand of God. Cast your cares on Him; He cares for you.

1 Peter 5:5-7 KJV
5. Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
6. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
7. Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.