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Eschatology: The "Left Behind" narrative is unbiblical

The Old Maid

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Thank you for your reply. The article below (1.5 pages long) will shed light on "the last trump" (1 Cor 15:52 KJV). It will prove that "the last trump" has no relation to the seven trumpet judgments. The "last trump" is the trumpet sound in 1 Th 4:16.

Thank you for the article!
 
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NeoWatchman

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Do you worry about the people who are pre trib being deceived when it begins?

I actually worry about that. How is an incorrect eschatology going to effect everyone?

I wonder... And I worry.
I worry about that as well.

Pre-Tribbers: Well the pre-trib rapture hasn't happened yet so therefore this can't be the mark of The Beast, so it's ok if I accept it.
 
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Hazelelponi

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I worry about that as well.

Pre-Tribbers: Well the pre-trib rapture hasn't happened yet so therefore this can't be the mark of The Beast, so it's ok if I accept it.

Yep. This!

At least I'm not alone in concern.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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All of it - Left Behind is a multimedia franchise of apocalyptic fiction written by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins, released by Tyndale House Publishers from 1995 to 2007.
What did Jesus mean in Rev 3:10 when He said, "I will keep you from the hour of trial?" Do you recognize He was talking about the Trib? Do you also recognize there are two groups referred to in that verse? The "you" are believers. When He said "those," He was referring only to unbelievers. The complete reference He made was, "those who dwell on the earth." If you check what that phrase means, in the context of the Trib, you will find it only means "unbelievers." One of the earliest examples in the Trib is Rev 6:10, that proves those who dwell on the earth are vicious murderers. Now, does that sound like believers? How about Rev 11:10? Are those who dwell on the earth, believers? Let's go to Rev 6:4. Folks on the earth will be made to kill each other. Is that anything God would subject us to? We aren't there in Rev 6:4, because Jesus promised to keep us from the hour of trial.

If you doubt the pre-Trib rapture, please read Rev 4:1. Let's also see that apostle John never left the island of Patmos during the whole time he received his vision on Revelation. All that John heard and saw in his vision was shown to him by one angel. That is what John says, in his own words, in Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

Therefore, Rev 4:1 is a future event, the pre-Trib rapture of the Church. Unbelievers are left behind, and only they enter the Trib.
 
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NeoWatchman

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What did Jesus mean in Rev 3:10 when He said, "I will keep you from the hour of trial?" Do you recognize He was talking about the Trib? Do you also recognize there are two groups referred to in that verse? The "you" are believers. When He said "those," He was referring only to unbelievers. The complete reference He made was, "those who dwell on the earth." If you check what that phrase means, in the context of the Trib, you will find it only means "unbelievers." One of the earliest examples in the Trib is Rev 6:10, that proves those who dwell on the earth are vicious murderers. Now, does that sound like believers? How about Rev 11:10? Are those who dwell on the earth, believers? Let's go to Rev 6:4. Folks on the earth will be made to kill each other. Is that anything God would subject us to? We aren't there in Rev 6:4, because Jesus promised to keep us from the hour of trial.

If you doubt the pre-Trib rapture, please read Rev 4:1. Let's also see that apostle John never left the island of Patmos during the whole time he received his vision on Revelation. All that John heard and saw in his vision was shown to him by one angel. That is what John says, in his own words, in Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

Therefore, Rev 4:1 is a future event, the pre-Trib rapture of the Church. Unbelievers are left behind, and only they enter the Trib.
There's great debate about who the 7 churches are symbolically today since the original 7 churches written to were located in Turkey and no longer exist today.

-7 different types of Christians
-7 different types of churches all throughout the world
-7 continents (each continent has its own type of church)

And Revelation 3:10 is part of a letter written to 1 of the 7 churches. It's not talking about ALL Christians seeing as there are those who are murdered during the Tribulation:

Revelation 20:4 (ESV)
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and THOSE WHO HAD NOT WORSHIPED THE BEAST OR ITS IMAGE AND HAD NOT RECEIVED its MARK ON THEIR FOREHEADS OR THEIR HANDS. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


Revelation 4:1 was talking about John and John alone. There's no reason to think it's a double meaning. Yes, John was in prison but he was having a vision. In a vision you can go anywhere/be shown any place that God wants you to see. "JOHN, ascend into heaven to see this." Is what's being said.


The two witnesses dwell on earth at the time. They're not murderers. They're killed by The Beast. And there are other believers who dwell on earth still:
-the martyrs crying out to God/martyrdom in general is the 5th seal. And God tells them to wait because more Christians still have to be killed:
Rev 6:11 (ESV) Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
-Other believers dwelling on earth during the trib (AT CHRIST'S RETURN):
1 Thes 4:15-17
15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who ARE LEFT UNTIL THE COMING OF THE LORD, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 THEN WE WHO ARE ALIVE, WHO ARE LEFT, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
-Other Christians are dwelling on earth that have the seal of God in their foreheads (as God tells the flying scorpion things to only hurt those who DON'T have the seal of God. He wouldn't have to say that if everyone who has the seal of God is in heaven (the 5th TRUMPET, far into the Trib):
Revelation 9:1, 4
1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
-How is Satan/The Serpent/Dragon able to go after Christians during the Trib (while a group of Jews are hidden away in a wilderness) if there aren't any Christians dwelling on earth?:
Revelation 12:6, 13-17a (ESV)
6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 DAYS.
13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for A TIME, AND TIMES, AND HALF A TIME. 15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman AND WENT OFF TO MAKE WAR ON THE REST OF HER OFFSPRING, ON THOSE WHO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD AND HOLD TO THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS.
 
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Always in His Presence

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What did Jesus mean in Rev 3:10 when He said, "I will keep you from the hour of trial?" Do you recognize He was talking about the Trib? Do you also recognize there are two groups referred to in that verse? The "you" are believers. When He said "those," He was referring only to unbelievers. The complete reference He made was, "those who dwell on the earth." If you check what that phrase means, in the context of the Trib, you will find it only means "unbelievers." One of the earliest examples in the Trib is Rev 6:10, that proves those who dwell on the earth are vicious murderers. Now, does that sound like believers? How about Rev 11:10? Are those who dwell on the earth, believers? Let's go to Rev 6:4. Folks on the earth will be made to kill each other. Is that anything God would subject us to? We aren't there in Rev 6:4, because Jesus promised to keep us from the hour of trial.

If you doubt the pre-Trib rapture, please read Rev 4:1. Let's also see that apostle John never left the island of Patmos during the whole time he received his vision on Revelation. All that John heard and saw in his vision was shown to him by one angel. That is what John says, in his own words, in Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

Therefore, Rev 4:1 is a future event, the pre-Trib rapture of the Church. Unbelievers are left behind, and only they enter the Trib.
I didn’t say anything about the tribulation.

I was addressing a series of books that are complete fiction.

I think it is irresponsible and dangerous to try to bolster our theological stance on anything based off a fictional novel
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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There's great debate about who the 7 churches are symbolically today since the original 7 churches written to were located in Turkey and no longer exist today.

-7 different types of Christians
-7 different types of churches all throughout the world
-7 continents (each continent has its own type of church)

And Revelation 3:10 is part of a letter written to 1 of the 7 churches. It's not talking about ALL Christians seeing as there are those who are murdered during the Tribulation:

Revelation 20:4 (ESV)
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and THOSE WHO HAD NOT WORSHIPED THE BEAST OR ITS IMAGE AND HAD NOT RECEIVED its MARK ON THEIR FOREHEADS OR THEIR HANDS. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


Revelation 4:1 was talking about John and John alone. There's no reason to think it's a double meaning. Yes, John was in prison but he was having a vision. In a vision you can go anywhere/be shown any place that God wants you to see. "JOHN, ascend into heaven to see this." Is what's being said.


The two witnesses dwell on earth at the time. They're not murderers. They're killed by The Beast. And there are other believers who dwell on earth still:
-the martyrs crying out to God/martyrdom in general is the 5th seal. And God tells them to wait because more Christians still have to be killed:
Rev 6:11 (ESV) Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
-Other believers dwelling on earth during the trib (AT CHRIST'S RETURN):
1 Thes 4:15-17
15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who ARE LEFT UNTIL THE COMING OF THE LORD, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 THEN WE WHO ARE ALIVE, WHO ARE LEFT, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
-Other Christians are dwelling on earth that have the seal of God in their foreheads (as God tells the flying scorpion things to only hurt those who DON'T have the seal of God. He wouldn't have to say that if everyone who has the seal of God is in heaven (the 5th TRUMPET, far into the Trib):
Revelation 9:1, 4
1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
-How is Satan/The Serpent/Dragon able to go after Christians during the Trib (while a group of Jews are hidden away in a wilderness) if there aren't any Christians dwelling on earth?:
Revelation 12:6, 13-17a (ESV)
6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 DAYS.
13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for A TIME, AND TIMES, AND HALF A TIME. 15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman AND WENT OFF TO MAKE WAR ON THE REST OF HER OFFSPRING, ON THOSE WHO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD AND HOLD TO THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS.
Your claims are misguided.

Rev 3:10 is about the future. The "hour of trial" is a reference to the future 7-year Trib. Jesus cited two different groups: "you" as believers and "those" as unbelievers. He closes out that verse confirming only unbelievers will enter the Trib ("those who dwell on the earth"). In the context of the Trib, there is no complimentary verse about "those who dwell on the earth." Rev 11:10 is a prime example. Those are hardcore unbelievers. The unbelievers who survive the Trib are harshly judged in Matt 25:41-46.

Rev 4:1 was not fulfilled by apostle John. He simply wrote about it. He provably never left Patmos during the entire time he heard and saw his vision of Revelation. He was shown his entire vision by one angel. The proof of that is John's own words in Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

Rev 4:1 is therefore a future event, the pre-Trib rapture of the Church. That verse fulfills 1 Th 4:16-17 and John 14:3.

You are misunderstanding a major piece of Rev. The GM ("great multitude") is indirectly first discussed in Rev 6:11 as "fellow servants." The GM is composed of two very large groups of martyrs. Martyrs in the Trib are unbelievers who are converted, and who are killed for their testimony of Jesus (Rev 6:11). The martyrs in the 5th seal come from the worldwide slaughter in the 2nd and 4th seals, which will kill billions of unbelievers. Those two seals will also account for millions of new converts.

The second group of the GM will be found in Rev 20:4. Those are martyrs from Rev 12 and 13. They are all martyred for their testimony of Jesus. They all end up in Rev 20:4. The first martyrs (Rev 6:11) are resurrected together with the second group of martyrs (Rev 12 & 13) in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They are next seen in Heaven, in Rev 7:9-17. It is therefore true that all alleged Christians and "saints" in the Trib are only new converts who become the martyrs in Rev 6:11 and Rev12-13. Please look closely in Rev 12:17. Those are new converts who are martyred for their testimony of Jesus. They end up in Rev 20:4.

The folks behind the big revival in the Trib are the "144k" (Rev 7:1-8) and the 2W (Two Witnesses) who are appointed in Rev 11:3. Regarding the 2W, no one knows for sure where they come from. They are implied to emanate from Heaven due to the very heavenly wording in Rev 11:4.

God bless!
 
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NeoWatchman

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He quoted my post in his reply.
Ah, I see what happened. He copied and pasted the same reply to me as well, hence the confusion.

This post corrects a lot of ideas from the Left Behind series:
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Ah, I see what happened. He copied and pasted the same reply to me as well, hence the confusion.

This post corrects a lot of ideas from the Left Behind series:

Ah, I see what happened. He copied and pasted the same reply to me as well, hence the confusion.

This post corrects a lot of ideas from the Left Behind series:
If you don't accept the truth in my reply, then please point out where I am wrong. The author of that article misses many truths that invalidate that article. Rev 3:10 is about the pre-Trib rapture. It clearly states "you" (believers) will be kept from the "hour of trial" (Trib), and that "those" (unbelievers) will be tried by the 21 judgements of God's wrath in the Trib. All references in the Trib to "those who dwell on the earth" are referring to unbelievers.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Your claims are misguided.

Rev 3:10 is about the future.

The Christians living in Philadelphia when St. John wrote the Apocalypse, to whom this is being said, are no longer around. How can you simply ignore the context and declare this "is about the future" when it is clearly written to people two thousand years ago and is being said to them explicitly?

There is no exegesis being done to make this claim. It requires making things up that are not in Bible at all.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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If you don't accept the truth in my reply, then please point out where I am wrong. The author of that article misses many truths that invalidate that article. Rev 3:10 is about the pre-Trib rapture. It clearly states "you" (believers) will be kept from the "hour of trial" (Trib), and that "those" (unbelievers) will be tried by the 21 judgements of God's wrath in the Trib. All references in the Trib to "those who dwell on the earth" are referring to unbelievers.

You are making that up. That isn't in the text.

St. John's Revelation deserves to be treated better than this. We don't just throw out all basic exegetical and heremeneutical principles and then declare as true whatever random thought happens to show up in our imagination. Proper exegesis still applies, even when it is a difficult text like the Apocalypse.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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The Christians living in Philadelphia when St. John wrote the Apocalypse, to whom this is being said, are no longer around. How can you simply ignore the context and declare this "is about the future" when it is clearly written to people two thousand years ago and is being said to them explicitly?

There is no exegesis being done to make this claim. It requires making things up that are not in Bible at all.

-CryptoLutheran
The Christians living in Philadelphia when St. John wrote the Apocalypse, to whom this is being said, are no longer around. How can you simply ignore the context and declare this "is about the future" when it is clearly written to people two thousand years ago and is being said to them explicitly?

There is no exegesis being done to make this claim. It requires making things up that are not in Bible at all.

-CryptoLutheran
Rev 3:10 is about the future 7-year Trib. Rev 4:1 is wholly in the future. Rev 22:8 proves John never left the island of Patmos because one angel showed John everything he heard and saw in his entire vision of Revelation. Please read Rev 22:8.

Therefore, John merely wrote about Rev 4:1 and heard and saw everything about it in his vision.

1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come

The Trib is a future event which starts with Rev 6:1-2. The wrath of God, in the Trib, begins no later than Rev 6:4 regarding “wars” that will suddenly break out all over the world.

God’s wrath is well-defined in Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

Here’s Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

Rev 6:4 is about the 2nd seal. It will feature one of the four most dreadful forms of God’s wrath: wars. Wars in the 2nd seal will occur all over the world simultaneously. It’s truly Hell on Earth. Many inhabitants of Earth will be killed.

So, we know that God’s wrath will come in the 2nd seal. That satisfies the requirement for God’s wrath at the beginning of the Trib, for the purposes of 1 Th 1:10.

“Delivers us” in 1 Th 1:10 relates to the second usage of “deliverance,” in the Bible. That second usage translates to “snatch away.” Therefore, that verse is about our being “snatched away" just before God’s wrath comes in the Trib. We know from Rev 6:4 that God’s wrath will come in the 2nd seal.

1 Th 1:10 is the first verse Apostle Paul wrote about the pre-Trib rapture. We will be raptured (snatched away) from Earth immediately prior to the Trib due to God’s wrath about to come in the 2nd seal.

That is what Jesus means in Rev 3:10. He will keep us from “the hour of trial.” We believers will not enter the 7-year Trib.
 
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