Drawing People To Himself

[HopeBforJC]

Does God draw people to Him? Choose who He draws to Him? Thus, some people not being drawn to Him and therefor not being able to find Him on their own because God hadn't chose them? Does this happen?

Don't respond with simply yes or no...that's simply annoying

 

[Alphadux]

You're correct. This is the good old doctrine of grace. Paul speaks about God's election in Romans 9 and Ephesians 1. I know there's going to be disagreement on this, but there's my two cents.

 

[artjack]

well I suppose he is the ultimit artist, he could draw someone if he wished, he may enjoy just letting us figure out ourselves,kind of half drawen at a safe distance untill time almost runs out depending on the end plan

 

[Eila]

Does God draw people to Him? Choose who He draws to Him? Thus, some people not being drawn to Him and therefor not being able to find Him on their own because God hadn't chose them? Does this happen?

Don't respond with simply yes or no...that's simply annoying

Yes, God draws people to Himself. John 12:32 says "32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

He draws ALL people to Himself.

 

[Defcon]

You're correct. This is the good old doctrine of grace. Paul speaks about God's election in Romans 9 and Ephesians 1. I know there's going to be disagreement on this, but there's my two cents.

Count me in with Alphadux -
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." Note the conjunction 'and' - those who are drawn will be raised up on the last day - i.e. the will come to salvation.

And again,
John 6:65 "And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." The Father chooses who will come as no man has the ability to come on his own. Notice Jesus says this after many supposed disciples desert Him.

This goes right along with Romans 3:10 - 11"as it is written:
None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God." Left to our own ambition, no one would be saved.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Yes

 

[Defcon]

Yes, God draws people to Himself. John 12:32 says "32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

He draws ALL people to Himself.

Look at the John 6 (specifically the verses I noted in the above post). There are clearly some who are drawn and some who aren't - lest all are raised on the last day with Christ as all will come. The 'drawing' Jesus speaks of in Chapter 6 in supernatural and effectual. Not general and unspecific. "All" people in 12:32 is Christ's declaration that salvation will be to Jews AND Gentiles - not the Jews alone. No people would be excluded in salvation. This was absolute culture shock and absurd to Jews of the day. However, many people have overlooked this understanding in our day and reduced this verse to "Christ loves everyone the same and draws each and every person the same." When read and compared to other Scripture in historical context, we see this simply isn't the case.

 

[JimfromOhio]

From Salvation perspective, the Holy Spirit have been trying to draw people to God by convicting them to repent and put their faith in God. The Holy Spirit pricks and quickens us to be alive. The Holy Spirit is the only person that can quicken people to be saved. Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!” 1 Thessalonians 4:8 Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit. John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 1 Thessalonians 1:5 "because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake."

In relationship with our Savior perspective: A Christian will pursue the will of God actively and be enthusiastic and the attitude toward Christ, a Christian will manifest love and burning devotion from the heart. Its not about how you "practice" your devotion to draw near to God, but rather how your "heart" is when are drawing him near to YOU. 1 Corinthians 6:19, "Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?" MY body is "good" and wonderful gift from God. Paul said, "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection ..." (1Corinthians 9:27). The key word here is "discipline." Paul wrote, "For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come" (1Tim 4:8).

 

[artjack]

Yes, God draws people to Himself. John 12:32 says "32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

He draws ALL people to Himself.

you will need to know how everything works and their reason in order for that to be posible, so do you have any reasons at the minute for the use of dangers such as lightining in heaven as explained in revelations vision to john, it may not be as honky dory as most will expect once there, no one can give me a reason for it so far.

 

[Eila]

Look at the John 6 (specifically the verses I noted in the above post). There are clearly some who are drawn and some who aren't - lest all are raised on the last day with Christ as all will come. The 'drawing' Jesus speaks of in Chapter 6 in supernatural and effectual. Not general and unspecific.

I understand your perspective. However, I find that a viewpoint where one believes God chooses who is and who is not saved means that God's will is not done.

1 Timothy 2 "3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,"

John 3 "14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[b] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."

 

[Peaceful Dove]

Pure and simple.
God draws ALL people to himself.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Does God draw people to Him? Choose who He draws to Him? Thus, some people not being drawn to Him and therefor not being able to find Him on their own because God hadn't chose them? Does this happen?

Don't respond with simply yes or no...that's simply annoying

Jesus came to draw ALL unto Himself . . .not just some.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.​

.

 

[Oye11]

Count me in with Alphadux -
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." Note the conjunction 'and' - those who are drawn will be raised up on the last day - i.e. the will come to salvation.

And again,
John 6:65 "And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." The Father chooses who will come as no man has the ability to come on his own. Notice Jesus says this after many supposed disciples desert Him.

This goes right along with Romans 3:10 - 11"as it is written:
None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God." Left to our own ambition, no one would be saved.

For the bread of God is the One who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world. John 6-32

Chirst came for the world, not an undetermined number of abitrarily selected indivduals.

And they will all be taught by God. Everyone who has listened to and learned from the Father comes to Me John 6-45

So these are precisely those who the Father has given to Christ, those who listen to and learn from the Father.

And as is taught elsewhere by John, salvation is given to those that respond.

But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name, John 1-12 (see also John 3-1-18)

There is no such thing as irresistible grace or so called "effectual calling" as opposed to "general calling." Such are the extrabiblical philosophies of men...

 

[Defcon]

I understand your perspective. However, I find that a viewpoint where one believes God chooses who is and who is not saved means that God's will is not done.

1 Timothy 2 "3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,"

You'll notice that 1 Timothy 2 instructs believers to pray for all people (all men in NIV; all people in ESV) - those in high positions, etc. In other words, the salvation message is for all ranks of people - rich or poor.

Now, consider your interpretation. 'God desires all men (each and every one) to be saved.' Hmmm... so since many aren't saved - does that mean God can't work out His plan? He is unable to accomplishes His purposes?

Secondly, you say 'Christ gave Himself a ransom for all (each and every person)' So Christ paid for each and every person's sin? I assume your answer will be 'yes, but you must have faith for it to take effect'. So my question is "Is unbelief (the absence of faith) a sin?"

John 3 "14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[b] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."

We have no disagreement of this verse on the surface. Unfortunately, I gather that you are implying everyone is commanded to believe and has the ability to do so in their own power. That what God commands can be accomplished by our own power has been proven false every second of every day since the Fall.

Also, how do you understand the verses of John Chapter 6?

 

[Eila]

You'll notice that 1 Timothy 2 instructs believers to pray for all people (all men in NIV; all people in ESV) - those in high positions, etc. In other words, the salvation message is for all ranks of people - rich or poor.

Now, consider your interpretation. 'God desires all men (each and every one) to be saved.' Hmmm... so since many aren't saved - does that mean God can't work out His plan? He is unable to accomplishes His purposes?

Yes, I take "all men" to mean all people and not just certain groups of people. God did achieve His plan, he sent His Son and whosoever (anyone) who believes in Him will have everlasting life. He desires that none should perish and that all come to repentance. We find Jesus in Luke 13 lamenting "34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing! 35 See! Your house is left to you desolate; and assuredly,[f] I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!"

Here we see that God's will was not done concerning Jerusalem. Was He unable to do His will here or did they have free-will to chose their own way?

Secondly, you say 'Christ gave Himself a ransom for all (each and every person)' So Christ paid for each and every person's sin? I assume your answer will be 'yes, but you must have faith for it to take effect'. So my question is "Is unbelief (the absence of faith) a sin?"

I didn't say that Christ gave Himself a ransom for all. It says that in 2 Timothy. Yes, Christ paid for every person's sin. The Bible does say that those who do not believe in Jesus are already condemned.

We have no disagreement of this verse on the surface. Unfortunately, I gather that you are implying everyone is commanded to believe and has the ability to do so in their own power. That what God commands can be accomplished by our own power has been proven false every second of every day since the Fall.

Acts 17:30 " 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent," All men everywhere encompasses the entire world. Would God command you to do something that was impossible?

Also, how do you understand the verses of John Chapter 6?

Each person has a hunger for God inside. God has placed that hunger within every person and that longing is only fulfilled in Jesus. God draws every person, but not every person responds to His drawing. Our salvation is not of ourselves. We do not save ourselves. God saves us.

 

[BrotherDave]

God is not a respecter of persons so in that sense he does choose men from all groups. But he does not choose everyone from every group. He chose whom He planned to save before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4-13).

Everyone that God saves will have everlasting life and they believe in the Lord with all their heart (Jeremiah 29:13). God had to change the heart first though. This happens at the moment God saves someone. Remember the devils knew and believed (Mark 1:24, Luke 4:34) Christ was the Holy one of God but they were not saved.

You are correct that God does not want anyone to perish and all to repent. In fact he commands us all to repent but nobody, neither I nor anyone else, will unless God intervenes in our life. God intervenes in the life of only those whom He plans to save (Eph 1:4). The Bible says in Matthew Chapter 22, verse 14: “For many are called, but few are chosen”

Regarding Jerusalem, they all represented God and should have put their trust in Him. Much like the churches of the New Testament were supposed to represent Him. But they strayed from the truth and followed their own doctrine. They, like everyone will say “blessed is he who comes” on the last day when Christ returns on the clouds of glory to judge those who have not been saved. Of course then it will be too late.

Christ paid for the sins of everyone of God’s elect. Matthew 1:21 “And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.” His people are all those who were given to Christ by the Father (Ephesians 1:3-5). In John 17, Jesus is praying, and He says in verse 9: “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.” Jesus describes “them” in verse 2 of John 17: “As thou hast given him power over all flesh that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.” If he paid for the sins of everyone the no one would be sent to Hell. We know Hell will be heavily populated. (Matt 7:13)

No one has the power to resist God. So if He “draws every person” then every person would have to be saved – that’s not the case. You are correct saying “we do not save ourselves.” But when you say we must choose to respond to God’s drawing then you are saying that salvation is in your control because you have to choose – it is in effect up to you.

Sin is anarchy; sin is rebellion against God. We all deserve the hatred of God. The fact that He saved a vast company of believers from every nation and tribe and people demonstrates gracious and condescending love that no man will ever understand. We need not understand to know it is possible because God tells us in Isaiah 55:8: "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." God’s love is seen in the fact that He has provided for the salvation of those He chose to save from before the foundation of the earth. He saved Jacob but not Esau. This is God’s salvation plan.

The environment in which God saves is in the hearing of His word (Romans 10:17, I Thessalonians 2:13, Eph: 1:13) and only God knows who the elect are. So we all should be studying the Bible as often as possible and praying for forgiveness so that if we are one of His elect he can save us.

In Christ’s Service.
David

 

[Oye11]

Christ paid for the sins of everyone of God’s elect. Matthew 1:21 “And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Wow! I simply do not have time this afternoon for a full rebuttal of your post but cannot believe you use this verse from Matthew to try and prove your point. May cover the rest tonight. I heard James White do the same on his radio program and that confirms well his mail order doctorate.... Matthew is the Gospel most geared toward a Jewish audience. "His people" is talking about the Jews, not some arbitrary selection of individuals, eg. you over your mother, your next door neighbor over the guy on the corner... And Matt 1-21 in no way nullifies the universal atonement passages.

Christ died for the everyone, how many verses does one need? The sheer volume of scripture twisting to try and prove otherwise is astounding... Here are a couple of more.

He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world. 1 John 2-2

But we do see Jesus— made lower than the angels for a short time so that by God's grace He might taste death for everyone—crowned with glory and honor Hebrews 2-9

Some honest Calvinists go ahead and abandon the "L." Others I suppose since they are individually elect and eternally secure feel they have little to lose by lying ....

 

[Catherineanne]

Does God draw people to Him? Choose who He draws to Him?

When I am trying to understand something of God, I think of parents and their children. With the understanding that there is nothing that we can do as humans that outdoes God. Including love.

This question makes me think of a parent standing some distance from his toddler, and holding his arms wide and calling the child's name.

Some toddlers will run to be embraced. Some will run the other way, wanting to play tag.

Either way, the parent's love is the same. Sometimes God gives us an embrace, sometimes he plays tag. But he always loves us.

And a toddler cannot outrun his parent's love, no matter how hard he tries. So God draws all men to himself, whichever direction they run.

 

[Eila]

God is not a respecter of persons so in that sense he does choose men from all groups. But he does not choose everyone from every group. He chose whom He planned to save before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4-13).

Ephesians 1 "3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both[a] which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[b] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

Yes, we are all predestined to be saved. It is God's desire that none should perish. Notice verse 13 says "having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise".

Everyone that God saves will have everlasting life and they believe in the Lord with all their heart (Jeremiah 29:13). God had to change the heart first though. This happens at the moment God saves someone. Remember the devils knew and believed (Mark

1:24, Luke 4:34) Christ was the Holy one of God but they were not saved.

Where does the Bible say that Jesus came to die for the angels? People can know of God, yet not accept Him as their Substitute and make Him Lord of their life.

You are correct that God does not want anyone to perish and all to repent. In fact he commands us all to repent but nobody, neither I nor anyone else, will unless God intervenes in our life. God intervenes in the life of only those whom He plans to save (Eph 1:4). The Bible says in Matthew Chapter 22, verse 14: “For many are called, but few are chosen”

Matthew 22 "3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. " Here we find that those not chosen were the ones not willing to come. They were invited.

Christ paid for the sins of everyone of God’s elect. Matthew 1:21 “And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.” His people are all those who were given to Christ by the Father (Ephesians 1:3-5). In John 17, Jesus is praying, and He says in verse 9: “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.” Jesus describes “them” in verse 2 of John 17: “As thou hast given him power over all flesh that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.”

John 17 starts out with Jesus praying for His disciples. I agree, the disciples were given to Him. I do not see how this applys to people in general. In verse 20 and 21 we see that Jesus prays for those who would come after them. "
20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will[e] believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me." Again Jesus mentions the world in reference to those who will believe.

Matthew 1:21 His people - the book of Matthew was written to Jews. Jesus did come to save His people - the Jews. But the Bible tells us He not only came to save His people, but the world. 1 John 2 "2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."

No one has the power to resist God. So if He “draws every person” then every person would have to be saved – that’s not the case. You are correct saying “we do not save ourselves.” But when you say we must choose to respond to God’s drawing then you are saying that salvation is in your control because you have to choose – it is in effect up to you.

Yes, the word "repent" in the Greek means to change one's mind. It is a choice. However, that does not mean that we save ourselves.

Sin is anarchy; sin is rebellion against God. We all deserve the hatred of God. The fact that He saved a vast company of believers from every nation and tribe and people demonstrates gracious and condescending love that no man will ever understand. We need not understand to know it is possible because God tells us in Isaiah 55:8: "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." God’s love is seen in the fact that He has provided for the salvation of those He chose to save from before the foundation of the earth. He saved Jacob but not Esau. This is God’s salvation plan.

The environment in which God saves is in the hearing of His word (Romans 10:17, I Thessalonians 2:13, Eph: 1:13) and only God knows who the elect are. So we all should be studying the Bible as often as possible and praying for forgiveness so that if we are one of His elect he can save us.

Acts 16 "29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” "

Paul explains what we must do to be saved. Just believe. Faith is not works, in fact the Bible contrasts faith and works. We can have assurance of our salvation today. We can trust what the Bible says in Romans 10:
" 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”[f] 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

 

[HopeBforJC]

Count me in with Alphadux -
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." Note the conjunction 'and' - those who are drawn will be raised up on the last day - i.e. the will come to salvation.

And again,
John 6:65 "And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." The Father chooses who will come as no man has the ability to come on his own. Notice Jesus says this after many supposed disciples desert Him.

This goes right along with Romans 3:10 - 11"as it is written:
None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God." Left to our own ambition, no one would be saved.

I'm just quoting you because you used some scripture that kind of leads to my other question.

If God chooses who comes to Him, or who He draws to Himself...etc. etc. why would some non-Christians who truly seek(ed) God be left accountable for their sins?