God does not select people for damnation

[FutureAndAHope]

God's nature is such that He desires all people to come to Him (although not all respond). He does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'​

This is backed up by scriptures that say God desires salvation for "all", yet not all will receive it.

1Ti 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,​

The doctrine that all are presented with salvation was also taught by the Early Church Fathers.

“ I do not mean to say that there are two different human natures” and “ he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice”. - ( Ignatius 30AD-107AD)​

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they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made (Justin Martyr 110AD-165AD , First Apology - Ch 43)​

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... Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be... (Justin Martyr 110AD-165AD, Dialoque with Trypho, Ch 140)​

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I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’... (Justin Martyr 110AD-165AD, Dialoque with Trypho, Ch 141)​

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. (Irenaeus 120AD-202AD, Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 37)​

 

[MaxPower]

Brother Robert Pate put this list together to try to help deceived Calvinists out of their confusion. So credit to Robert Pate and I hope his efforts can continue to help others.

Calvinism is a false demonic doctrine that believes God predestinates people to hell before they are born, making God an unmerciful, unrighteous tyrant.


Luke 18:17, "WHOSOEVER shall not receive the Kingdom of God as a little Child shall in no wise enter in."

John 3:15, "WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish".

John 4:14, "WHOSOEVER drinks of this water that I shall give him shall never perish".

JOHN 11:26, "WHOSOEVER lives and believes in me shall never die, do you believe this?"

John 12:46, "I am become a light into the world, that WHOSOEVER believes in me should not abide in darkness"

Acts 2:21, "And it shall come to pass that WHOSOEVER shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved".

Acts 10:43, "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name WHOSOEVER believes in him shall receive remission of sins".

Romans 9:33, "As it is written, behold I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and a rock of offense: and WHOSOEVER believes in him shall not be ashamed.".

Romans 10:11, "For the scripture says WHOSOEVER believes in him shall not be ashamed".

Romans 10:13, "For WHOSOEVER shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved".

1 John 4:15, "WHOSOEVER shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dells in him, and he of God".

John 5:1, WHOSOEVER believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God".

Matthew 11:28, Come unto me ALL OF YOU that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest".

Matthew 10:32, WHOSOEVER shall confess me before men, him will I confess before my Father in heaven".

Matthew 16:32, "For WHOSOEVER will save his life shall lose it; and WHOSOEVER will lose his life for my sake shall find it".

Matthew 18:4, WHOSOEVER shall receive a little child in my name receives me".

Matthew 24:14, "And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all of the WORLD

Mark 1:37, And when they had found hm, they said unto him ALL MEN are seeking you".

Mark 3:35, And WHOSOEVER shall do the will of God (believe on Jesus) the same is my brother, and my sister, and my mother".

Luke 2:31, Which you have prepared before the face of ALL PEOPLE".

Luke 6:47, WHOSOEVER will come after me, and hears my saying, and does them, I will show you whom he is like".

John 1:7, "The same came for a witness of the light, that ALL MEN through him might believe".

Luke 9:26, "WHOSOEVER shall be ashamed of me, and my words, of him shall the Son man be ashamed".

Luke 12:8, "WHOSOEVER shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man confess before the angels in heaven".

John 1:7, "The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the light that ALL MEN through him might believe".

John 4:14, "But WHOSOEVER drinks of this water that I shall give him shall never thirst".

Mark 8:34, WHOSOEVER shall come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross and follow me".

John 3:16, For God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life".

John 3:26, "To whom you bared witness, behold the same was baptizing and ALL MEN came to him".

John 12:32, "And if I be lifted up I will draw ALL MEN unto myself".

Acts 17:30, "And the times of this ignorance God winked at: but now commands ALL MEN every where to repent".

Acts 3:39, "And the promise is unto you and to your children and to ALL that are afar off, even as MANY as the Lord shall call."

Acts 22:15, "For you shall be witnesses unto ALL MEN of what you have seen and heard".

Acts 17:31, "Wherefore he has given assurance unto ALL MEN in that he has raised Jesus from the dead."

Acts 22:15, "For you shall be his witness unto ALL MEN of what you have seen and heard".

Romans 5:18, "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon ALL MEN to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life".

Romans 8:32, "He that spared not his own son, but delivered him up for US ALL how shall he not give us all things".

Romans 11:32, For God has declared them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy UPON ALL".

1 Corinthians 9:22, "I am made all things to ALL MEN that I might win some".

1 Corinthians 15:22, "For as in Adam ALL DIE so in Christ shall ALL be made alive".

2 Corinthians 4:14-15, "For the love of Christ constrains us; because we thus judge; that if one died FOR ALL, then we are ALL DEAD"

2 Corinthians 5:19, "God was in Christ, reconciling the WORLD unto himself".

2 Corinthians 9:13, "While by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection into to the Gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto to them, and unto ALL MEN".

Galatians 3:28, "For you are ALL ONE in Jesus Christ".

Ephesians 3:9, "And to make ALL MEN see what is the fellowship of the mystery, from which from the beginning of the WORLD was hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ".

Galatians 3:28, "For you are ALL ONE in Jesus Christ".

1 Timothy 2:4, "Who will have ALL MEN to be saved and to come into the knowledge of the truth".

1 Timothy 2:5-6, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ who gave himself a ransom FOR ALL".

1 Timothy 4:10, "For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the SAVIOR OF ALL MEN, especially of those who believe".

Hebrews 9:10, "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN".

Hebrews 10:10, "For that we will have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus once FOR ALL".

James 1:5, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that gives to ALL MEN liberally".

1 John 2:2, "And he is a propitiation for sins: and not ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".

1 John 4:14, "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the savior of the WHOLE WORLD".

1 John 5:4, "For WHATSOEVER (WHOSOEVER) is born of God overcomes the WORLD : and this is the victory that over comes the world OUR FAITH",

2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise as some men count slackness: but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that ANYONE should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance".

 

[Eddie Ramos]

God's nature is such that He desires all people to come to Him (although not all respond). He does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'​

This is backed up by scriptures that say God desires salvation for "all", yet not all will receive it.

1Ti 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,​

Hello, I came across this post and would like to respond to your title as well as your post. While it is true that God does not select people for damnation, it's also true that that's NOT what Calvinism teaches. That may be your preception of what Calvinism teaches. And since Calvin and his teachings are not any type of bibical authority (because I don't follow Calvin), from now on I'll address what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that all of mankind (every last one) has sinned in the eyes of God and is therefore guilty of sin.

Romans 3:23 (KJV 1900)
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 5:12 (KJV 1900)
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

And as such, all of mankind stands guilty before God, the Judge of all the earth. And the only payment God has decreed for sin is death.

Romans 6:23 (KJV 1900)
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So, we can see that God has not selected people for damnation at all. All of mankind has sinned because they have inherited the sin nature of Adam and therefore are conceived in sin and are guilty from conception.

Psalm 58:3 (KJV 1900)
The wicked are estranged from the womb:
They go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Psalm 51:5 (KJV 1900)
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity;
And in sin did my mother conceive me.

So, the scripture is rather clear that mankind was hopelessly lost in his sin without any way to avoid the penalty of death that they rightfully desserved before the righteous judge. Everyone stood guilty before God and deserving of death. God did not choose this for anyone. God gave mankind a commandment that would allow him to continue to live in perfect harmony with God and free from condemnation, but mankind failed the test.

Romans 7:10 (KJV 1900)
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Now that the scriptures have cleared up that misunderstanding, the doctrine of election teaches thatrather than God rightfully and justly allowing all of mankind to perish for their own sins by their own death, that God would be merciful and save SOME from the penalty of death. The rest of mankind was still rightfully guilty before God all on their own.

Matthew 1:21 (KJV 1900)
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

And all throughout the Bible, God has illustrated this election of a people for himself from among all the people's of the world by first doing it with the nation of Israel.

Isaiah 45:4 (KJV 1900)
For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect,
I have even called thee by thy name:
I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isaiah 44:1 (KJV 1900)
Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant;
And Israel, whom I have chosen:

And in the New Testament, we learn that the physical nation of Israel only represented the true people of God, the true elect, the true chosen people of God, but the principle was the same. God had chosen a people for himself from among all the people's of the world, but God's true chosen people were actually always people from all over the world. These are the true Jews and the true Israel of God.

Galatians 6:15–16 (KJV 1900)
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Romans 2:28–29 (KJV 1900)
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

So, the fact that God identifies his true people as Israel and as Jews, allows us to go back and see how they were chosen to be a people of God before they even knew who God was. The bottom line is that any doctrine we hold to be true must find agreement within the Bible as a whole. And the doctrine of election unto salvation is the only one that does. I hope you find this helpful.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

So, the fact that God identifies his true people as Israel and as Jews, allows us to go back and see how they were chosen to be a people of God before they even knew who God was. The bottom line is that any doctrine we hold to be true must find agreement within the Bible as a whole. And the doctrine of election unto salvation is the only one that does. I hope you find this helpful.

The Jews were "chosen" to be the vessel through which salvation would come (via Christ). They were not chosen for "individual salvation". Even Paul made that fact clear:

Rom 9:27-29 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED. FOR HE WILL FINISH THE WORK AND CUT IT SHORT IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, BECAUSE THE LORD WILL MAKE A SHORT WORK UPON THE EARTH." And as Isaiah said before: "UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT US A SEED, WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WE WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE LIKE GOMORRAH."

Will reply in more detail later, have work now.

 

[Eddie Ramos]

God's nature is such that He desires all people to come to Him (although not all respond). He does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'​

This is backed up by scriptures that say God desires salvation for "all", yet not all will receive it.

1Ti 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,​

Now, whenever we read a passage in the Bible, we must be careful not to come to a conclusion until we have examined and have found harmony (agreement) with everything the Bible has to say on the matter. It is certainly true that God has no pleaure in the death of the wicked, but that doesn't mean that God has obligated himself to save all. God commanded perfect obedience from mankind in the garden of Eden, but mankind sinned. Therefore, God, as the just judge, could not go against his own law and give them a second chance to get it right. God gave the law and the cosequence for breaking that law which was death. And when they disoneyed, God was obligated to carry out his sentence.

Genesis 2:17 (KJV 1900)
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Mankind died the very day the sinned, just as God had said.

Now, regarding 1 Tim 2:3-6, you also have to be careful when you read the word "all" and don't jump to the conclusion that all means every single human being. In the Bible, God often uses words that seem to say one thing but mean another. He does this so that we will fill in the blanks as we compare scripture with scripture. For example:

1 Corinthians 15:22 (KJV 1900)
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

As we compare scripture with scripture, we learn that every single human being which came from Adam indeed dies. BUt we also learn that there are many people who have died unsaved. So, the second use of the word "all", in reference to who will be made alive, cannot possibly be referring to every single human being, but to some. And if we continue reading, we learn that even though all (every single human being) die, this whole verse is actually focusing only on the children of God.

1 Corinthians 15:23 (KJV 1900)
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

Even the phrase, "every man" is not referring to all of mankind but only to the elect of God, those who have become truly saved. So, when God says that he desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, we have to understand that God is the one who first and foremost granted the acknowledgement of truth.

2 Timothy 2:25 (KJV 1900)
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure (MAYBE) will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

So, this places salvation where it always was, in the hands of God and not man.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Now, whenever we read a passage in the Bible, we must be careful not to come to a conclusion until we have examined and have found harmony (agreement) with everything the Bible has to say on the matter. It is certainly true that God has no pleaure in the death of the wicked, but that doesn't mean that God has obligated himself to save all. God commanded perfect obedience from mankind in the garden of Eden, but mankind sinned. Therefore, God, as the just judge, could not go against his own law and give them a second chance to get it right. God gave the law and the cosequence for breaking that law which was death. And when they disoneyed, God was obligated to carry out his sentence.

Genesis 2:17 (KJV 1900)
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Mankind died the very day the sinned, just as God had said.

Now, regarding 1 Tim 2:3-6, you also have to be careful when you read the word "all" and don't jump to the conclusion that all means every single human being. In the Bible, God often uses words that seem to say one thing but mean another. He does this so that we will fill in the blanks as we compare scripture with scripture. For example:

1 Corinthians 15:22 (KJV 1900)
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

As we compare scripture with scripture, we learn that every single human being which came from Adam indeed dies. BUt we also learn that there are many people who have died unsaved. So, the second use of the word "all", in reference to who will be made alive, cannot possibly be referring to every single human being, but to some. And if we continue reading, we learn that even though all (every single human being) die, this whole verse is actually focusing only on the children of God.

1 Corinthians 15:23 (KJV 1900)
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

Even the phrase, "every man" is not referring to all of mankind but only to the elect of God, those who have become truly saved. So, when God says that he desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, we have to understand that God is the one who first and foremost granted the acknowledgement of truth.

2 Timothy 2:25 (KJV 1900)
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure (MAYBE) will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

So, this places salvation where it always was, in the hands of God and not man.

You have to be careful not to follow a doctrine that draws people away from the genuine saving grace of the LORD, by making God the author or cause of people's damnation. Rather than a genuine free will rebellion by man. I know of people who have wept in grief over the doctrine of Calvinism.

Now you say that you believe the "full word of God", or the "whole scriptures", it is easy enough to say that, but Calvinism does not adhere to the whole word; like any theory, it picks and chooses what to believe. As an example, Calvinism states that people enlightened or receiving the Holy Spirit can never be lost, but Hebrews 6, verses in Revelation, and other passages show clearly that they can fall away.

As for God desire to save "all men", it is clear in scripture that it refers to everyone, both believers and unbelievers:

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (NKJV, 1 Timothy 4:10)​

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (NKJV, 1John 2:2)​

 

[Eddie Ramos]

You have to be careful not to follow a doctrine that draws people away from the genuine saving grace of the LORD, by making God the author or cause of people's damnation. Rather than a genuine free will rebellion by man. I know of people who have wept in grief over the doctrine of Calvinism.

Now you say that you believe the "full word of God", or the "whole scriptures", it is easy enough to say that, but Calvinism does not adhere to the whole word; like any theory, it picks and chooses what to believe. As an example, Calvinism states that people enlightened or receiving the Holy Spirit can never be lost, but Hebrews 6, verses in Revelation, and other passages show clearly that they can fall away.

As for God desire to save "all men", it is clear in scripture that it refers to everyone, both believers and unbelievers:

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (NKJV, 1 Timothy 4:10)​

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (NKJV, 1John 2:2)​

I can't speak for Calvin or for Calvinism, so I won't try and defend whatever it is they believe. But anyone who adheres to those who put forth true teachings which find agreement in the whole of the scriptures should not be considered followers of that individual. For exmaple, the first church, outside of the scriptures, to delcare the trinity was the Catholic church. Does that mean that anyone who agrees and declares the same thing is a Catholic or a follower of catholisism? Not at all.

And I believe I already explained that Calvinism does not make God the author or cause of people's damnation, but your preception of what Calvinism teached still does. That's why I took the time to lay it out from the scriptures. And as far as losing salvation, that is not possible if one has become truly saved because salvation was never dependant on the will of man but on the will of God. For example, here's a passage that seems to suggest that salvation was for anyone who made the decision to receive Christ.

John 1:12 (KJV 1900)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

At first glance, and if we stop here, it certainly seems to suggest that it's up to man. But the context of this passage as well as the context of the scriptures as a whole, will not allow that conclusion.

John 1:13 (KJV 1900)
Which were born (meaning, born again), not of blood (salvation is not of bloodline), nor of the will of the flesh (nor of one's desire), nor of the will of man (becoming born again was NOT by the will of man), but of God (becoming born again was by God's own will).

James 1:18 (KJV 1900)
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

And I already explained that the word "all" doesn't always mean every human being. I even gave you an example to show this. This means that since the word "all" can refer to more than 1 thing, that we have to let the Bible, as a whole, determine how we understand each use of the word "all". The same is true of the phrase "the whole world". One cannot simply assume what he reads is clear when it agrees with one's position. The Bible as a whole has to determine what is clear and what needs to be understood differently that what it seems to say.

Revelation 12:9 (KJV 1900)
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Is this saying that the dragon is decieving every single human being? No, that's not possible because God's sheep (his elect) hear his voice and they flee from the voice of a stranger (from deception). There are more examples I could give regarding this phrase, but one is enough to show that one canot simply decide what to take at face value and what not to.

Lastly, the fact that people weep over the doctrine of election means that they don't like what they are hearing. This is characteristic of the truth. But a true believer's job is not to try and not offend others, it's always to proclaim the truth no matter who gets offended. And the truth is that any action anyone ever took to become saved (like believe, repent, confess, baptize, etc) is a work which could never have saved anyone.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

And as far as losing salvation, that is not possible if one has become truly saved because salvation was never dependant on the will of man but on the will of God.

That, again, is your opinion, not the Word of God. You do not follow the whole of the Word, just a subset.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. (NKJV, Hebrews 6:4-6)​

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A DOG RETURNS TO HIS OWN VOMIT,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” (NKJV, 2 Peter 2:20-22)​

Rev 3:16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.​

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.​

In the above scripture, the Lampstand refers to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is depicted in scripture as seven lamps.

For example, here's a passage that seems to suggest that salvation was for anyone who made the decision to receive Christ.

John 1:12 (KJV 1900)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

At first glance, and if we stop here, it certainly seems to suggest that it's up to man. But the context of this passage as well as the context of the scriptures as a whole, will not allow that conclusion.

John 1:13 (KJV 1900)
Which were born (meaning, born again), not of blood (salvation is not of bloodline), nor of the will of the flesh (nor of one's desire), nor of the will of man (becoming born again was NOT by the will of man), but of God (becoming born again was by God's own will).

James 1:18 (KJV 1900)
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Vesres, which you quote about "not by the will of man", does not mean that man's will plays no part as we see here:

Joh 14:15-16 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— ... Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.​

Note the order of receiving the Spirit, we receive the word, we obey the word, the Father (because of this fact) loves us, and then comes and makes a home with us.

Your order is that the Father loves us, makes a home with us, and then we obey the word. But that is not the order Jesus taught. Neither was it taught in the Old Testament.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.​

There is a two way Choice not based upon "God's will", but man's. As I stated, all the Early Church Fathers also attested.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. (Irenaeus , Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 37)​

The verse you quote from John about God's will, I believe is referring to the fact that salvation comes in the way God ordains, not the way man wants it. An idolater makes their own God. A Jew rests on the Law, but salvation comes through Christ, "His way".

And I already explained that the word "all" doesn't always mean every human being. I even gave you an example to show this. This means that since the word "all" can refer to more than 1 thing, that we have to let the Bible, as a whole, determine how we understand each use of the word "all". The same is true of the phrase "the whole world". One cannot simply assume what he reads is clear when it agrees with one's position. The Bible as a whole has to determine what is clear and what needs to be understood differently that what it seems to say.

Revelation 12:9 (KJV 1900)
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Is this saying that the dragon is decieving every single human being? No, that's not possible because God's sheep (his elect) hear his voice and they flee from the voice of a stranger (from deception). There are more examples I could give regarding this phrase, but one is enough to show that one canot simply decide what to take at face value and what not to.

You are twisting the plain, and obvious meaning of the scripture. Again, I will quote the plain scripture.

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (NKJV, 1 Timothy 4:10)​

​

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (NKJV, 1John 2:2)​

Lastly, the fact that people weep over the doctrine of election means that they don't like what they are hearing. This is characteristic of the truth. But a true believer's job is not to try and not offend others, it's always to proclaim the truth no matter who gets offended. And the truth is that any action anyone ever took to become saved (like believe, repent, confess, baptize, etc) is a work which could never have saved anyone.

Your doctrine is not supported by the "whole of scripture", nor by the Earliest Church Fathers. If it is causing people to walk away from God, you need to be serious and sober about what you teach.

 

[armchairscholar]

God's nature is such that He desires all people to come to Him (although not all respond). He does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'​

This is backed up by scriptures that say God desires salvation for "all", yet not all will receive it.

1Ti 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,​

The doctrine that all are presented with salvation was also taught by the Early Church Fathers.

" I do not mean to say that there are two different human natures" and " he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice". - ( Ignatius 30AD-107AD)​

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they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made (Justin Martyr 110AD-165AD , First Apology - Ch 43)​

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... Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God's fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be... (Justin Martyr 110AD-165AD, Dialoque with Trypho, Ch 140)​

​

I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, 'Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;'... (Justin Martyr 110AD-165AD, Dialoque with Trypho, Ch 141)​

1. This expression [of our Lord], "How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not," (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. (Irenaeus 120AD-202AD, Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 37)​

This is an excellent post about God's desire for all to be saved and the importance of human free will in the Early Church Fathers' understanding. The quotes from Ignatius, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus show remarkable consistency about God's nature and human choice.

What strikes me most is how these early Christian thinkers balanced God's sovereignty with human responsibility. They understood that without genuine freedom to choose, concepts like sin, repentance, and salvation lose their meaning. This thread between human choice and divine mercy runs through all of Christian history.

The passage from Ezekiel 33:11 beautifully captures God's heart - He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked but desires that everyone would turn and live. This reflects God's fundamental character as loving and merciful, not vindictive or arbitrary.

I find it particularly interesting that the Early Church Fathers were so clear on this point. Many modern theological debates might be resolved by returning to these foundational understandings from Christianity's earliest thinkers.

 

[Eddie Ramos]

That, again, is your opinion, not the Word of God. You do not follow the whole of the Word, just a subset.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. (NKJV, Hebrews 6:4-6)​

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A DOG RETURNS TO HIS OWN VOMIT,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” (NKJV, 2 Peter 2:20-22)​

Rev 3:16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.​

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.​

In the above scripture, the Lampstand refers to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is depicted in scripture as seven lamps.

You are making the mistake of lookling at passages independently of the scriptures as a whole. All the passages you quoted are referring to those who think they have become saved by some action they took of their own will. This was very common in the churches of the world. It was the New Testament churches who are being described in Hebrews 6. Partaking of the Holy Spirit does not mean they became saved but that they partook of the Word of God because that's where the Word of God was preached. And they partook of the Holy Spirit in the sense that the Holy Spirit was present in the churches. These same people are described by Christ in the parable of the sower and the seed.

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900)
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

This was the problem in the churches of the world. That there were many who thought they were saved, but never were. That's why we read of such warnings in Revelation as you listed.

Vesres, which you quote about "not by the will of man", does not mean that man's will plays no part as we see here:

Joh 14:15-16 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— ... Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.​

Note the order of receiving the Spirit, we receive the word, we obey the word, the Father (because of this fact) loves us, and then comes and makes a home with us.

Your order is that the Father loves us, makes a home with us, and then we obey the word. But that is not the order Jesus taught. Neither was it taught in the Old Testament.

It's not my order but God's.

1 John 4:19 (KJV 1900)
We love him, because he first loved us.

When you quote the scriptures, you seem to neglect a very important truth, that Jesus (The Word of God) did not speak clearly but in parables. This means that we have to be very careful when we quote a scripture just because it seems to make rational sense to us and just go with what it says rather than trying to understand what it means in light of the rest of the Bible.

Matthew 13:34 (KJV 1900)
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

The very doctrine of the Word of God is a doctrine of parables, not clear and consice language.

Mark 4:2–3 (KJV 1900)
And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine, 3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:

So, no one verse is clear as it's written until it finds harmony within the whole word of God. That's how God established truth to be understoof in His word. Therefore, what you did with the passage I cited for you in John 1 was essentially dismiss it by citing a passage you preferred better. Rather than show how such passage harmonizes with what you believe to be true. A contradiction is God's way of letting us know that we are incorrect in our understanding.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.​

This is not referring to salvation but to earthly blessings for obedience to his Word. This is exactly what the Nation of Israel was under, a works based blessing, but obedience to any part of the Word of God never resulted in salvation, because that would be a work of righteousness which could never save.

Titus 3:5 (KJV 1900)
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

And the Bible tells us that God has mercy on those whom he will have mercy, and the others, he leaves them to their own sin.

Romans 9:18 (KJV 1900)
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

There is a two way Choice not based upon "God's will", but man's. As I stated, all the Early Church Fathers also attested.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. (Irenaeus , Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 37)​

The verse you quote from John about God's will, I believe is referring to the fact that salvation comes in the way God ordains, not the way man wants it. An idolater makes their own God. A Jew rests on the Law, but salvation comes through Christ, "His way".





You are twisting the plain, and obvious meaning of the scripture. Again, I will quote the plain scripture.

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (NKJV, 1 Timothy 4:10)​

​

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (NKJV, 1John 2:2)​

Your doctrine is not supported by the "whole of scripture", nor by the Earliest Church Fathers. If it is causing people to walk away from God, you need to be serious and sober about what you teach.

No offence, but the "church fathers" have no biblical authority, and while every early church father may have had some things correct, it doesn't mean that it was all correct. That's why the only reliable source to quote from is the Bible, not early church fathers.

Jeremiah 17:5 (KJV 1900)
Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

1 Corinthians 2:13 (KJV 1900)
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

It was the New Testament churches who are being described in Hebrews 6. Partaking of the Holy Spirit does not mean they became saved but that they partook of the Word of God because that's where the Word of God was preached. And they partook of the Holy Spirit in the sense that the Holy Spirit was present in the churches. These same people are described by Christ in the parable of the sower and the seed.

Let's look more carefully at the scripture.

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A DOG RETURNS TO HIS OWN VOMIT,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” (NKJV, 2 Peter 2:20-22)​

These people "had escaped sin" ... that only happens when you are Born Again.

Now let's look at the following, in context:

Rev 3:16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.​

The following come after it:

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.​

God said He loved the people whom He warned He would vomit out. God only loves the righteous according to your doctrine or Calvinism.

Again, see the context of the following, they seem like real believers to me:

Rev 2:2-4 "I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name's sake and have not become weary. Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love.​

​

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.​

And like I said, the Lampstand in Revelation, and the whole bible, refers to the Holy Spirit. GOd said He would remove the spirit from them unless they repented.

It's not my order but God's.

You'd better read John 14 again, to see God's order. It was God who gave His word, we obey, God loves us because we obey His word, and He comes and makes a home with us. This does not deny the verses you gave, as follows. God's first step of revealing the word involves "Him first loving us". But we have to respond.

1 John 4:19 (KJV 1900)
We love him, because he first loved us.

As for this comment:

This is not referring to salvation but to earthly blessings for obedience to his Word. This is exactly what the Nation of Israel was under, a works based blessing, but obedience to any part of the Word of God never resulted in salvation, because that would be a work of righteousness which could never save.

The verse is not speaking only of this life, it says, "If they do not obey, they will die without knowledge."

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.​

No offence, but the "church fathers" have no biblical authority, and while every early church father may have had some things correct, it doesn't mean that it was all correct. That's why the only reliable source to quote from is the Bible, not early church fathers.

This is not a wise comment. The Earliest Church Fathers were one generation separate from the apostles, some lived at the same time. They all believed "every person has a chance of salvation", that "man has genuine free will regarding it".

You follow a doctrine, penned by Calvin, thousands of years separate from the Early Church. Get some wisdom.

The Way and Free Will

An online book on Free Will Salvation in man. A counterargument to Predestination.

www.everybodymattersministry.com

 

[Eddie Ramos]

Let's look more carefully at the scripture.

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A DOG RETURNS TO HIS OWN VOMIT,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” (NKJV, 2 Peter 2:20-22)​

These people "had escaped sin" ... that only happens when you are Born Again.

Hello. What you are doing is inferring how you understand what you are reading without supporting it from the scriptures. This makes you the authority of what you read and that's a bad position to place yourself in as a student of the Bible. Let's re-examine the passage in question. The context takes us back and forth from the Old Testament to the New.

2 Peter 1:21–2:1 (KJV 1900)
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Now, God is going to use Old Testament language to describe these people:

2 Peter 2:13–22 (KJV 1900)
And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; (Here is where God makes a distinction between those who outwardly appear to be children of God and those who actually are. Feasting with you is OT language of partaking with likeminded people, as the nation of Israel did with one another. The NT equivalent was fellowshipping (breaking bread) with each other in the churches. BUt just like everyone in Israel was not truly saved, even though outwardly they portrayed themselves to be the people of God, the same was true of those in the churches). 14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices (God is describing what we cannot see because he's describing what he sees when he looks at their heart. They outwardly identify as children of God, yet God calls them cursed children); cursed children: 15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray (this doesn't mean that they were truly saved to begin with, but that they were given the Word of God (the right way) and followed it for a time and then forsook it, just like the nation of Israel did multiple times), following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17 These (types of people) are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty (salvation), they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage (This is describing blind people who are led by blind people like the Pharisees did with many in Israel. But also describing what took place in the churches of the world as the blind were being led by the false gospels of the blind, yet both identified as children of God. And this is where your passage comes in.). 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. (Keeping the context in mind, this passage is describing those who wanted to identify as children of God, and during the church age, this was done by going to church in order to escape being defiled with the things of the world. That is how the Bible defines the word "pollution" (Strong's G3393 & 3392) as "defiled". The Jews that wanted to kill Christ did not enter into the judgment hall of Pilate in order that they would not be defiled "polluted" (Jn 18:28), but this didn't mean that they were saved, it has to do with giving the appearance of being defiled. And in the context of 2 Peter 13:20, it's the escaping of the pollutions of this world, in other words, it's the escaping of being defiled with this world, and that was done by identifying as a Jew who followed the law as well as by a Christian in a church. But because they were never truly saved, because they were not chosen for salvation, then their sinful tendency eventually took over and they returned back to their sinful ways after being under the hearing of the word of God (the way of righteousness) for a time) 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them (God has 2 levels of judgment, a more severe one for those who knew his master's will (were under the hearing of His Word) and yet disobeyed (like the nation of Israel and the churches), and a less severe one for those who did not know anything about the Bible. But both are unsaved and both are judged regardless). 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow (swine) that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.(Both the dog and the swine were unclean animals, and unless God saved them, they remianed unclean and revert back to their old nature. This is also explained in the parable of the sower and the seed as someone who believes for a wile and then falls away. Beliving doesn't mean they were truly saved, and their turning back is evidence that they never were.).

So, escaping the pollutions of the world does not mean escaping sin and thus being saved. You have not provided scriptural evidence for that. But you're more than welcome to do so.

Now let's look at the following, in context:

Rev 3:16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.​

The following come after it:

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.​

God said He loved the people whom He warned He would vomit out. God only loves the righteous according to your doctrine or Calvinism.

Again, see the context of the following, they seem like real believers to me:

Rev 2:2-4 "I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name's sake and have not become weary. Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love.​

​

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.​

And like I said, the Lampstand in Revelation, and the whole bible, refers to the Holy Spirit. GOd said He would remove the spirit from them unless they repented.

So, Revelation 2 & 3 is God's warning unto the churches of the world, typified by the number 7. And we know (as I already mentioned) that within the churches (and very early on since it's establishment) that there were wheat among the tares. That is, there were true believers among those who outwardly thought they were true believers, but were not. The Bible refers to them as wolves in sheep's clothing, also as ministers of satan portraying themselves to be ministers of righteousness. And very early on, the establishment of the earthly churches became corrupted by Satan. Nevertheless, God established that the earthly churches would be stewards of the gospel for a time, just like the nation of Israel was, even though they were also very unfaithful from very early on.

So, keeping this in mind, when we read God's warning in the book of Revelation unto the churches, we understand that the commendations he makes are because of the true believers (the wheat) within the churches. And the warnings to repent were against the unsaved (who thought they were saved) within the churches (Rev 2:2-4). Let's also take a look at the next chapter:

Revelation 3:14–17 (KJV 1900)
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15 I know thy works, that thou (as a church) art neither cold nor hot: I would thou (as a church) wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou (as a church) art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee (as a church) out of my mouth. 17 Because thou (as a church) sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou (as a church) art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Revelation 2 & 3 are God's judgment especifically on the churches of the world which were established to be faithful, but were not. And the churches never repented.

And the lampstand is indeed the Holy Spirit, the light of the gospel and power of salvation. But where is the lampstand removed from? Individual people, or the churches?

Revelation 2:1–7 (KJV 1900)
Unto the angel of the church (historically, this is a warning unto a church, but actually, it's a warning unto the churches. See vs 7) of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks (these are the 7 churches, or all the churches (Rev 1:20). Notice that the churches are identified with the candlestick, that is, they are identified with the Holy Spirit because that's where the Holy Spirit was present to save. Just like the holy of Holies was where God was said to be dewlling for a time. This is important to keep in mind because the removal of the candlesticks from among the churches was indeed the removal of the Holy Spirit from the midst, but this meant that the power of slavation had departed from among them. So this means that within the churches, salvation would cease and not that salvation was lost for those who had it. Now comes the commendation of the wheat within the churches); 2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name’s sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. (Now comes the rebuke of those who thorught they were saved and yet weren't) 4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. (And then God goes back to commend the true belilevers within the churches) 6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

The Bible informs us of a very important principle regarding what took place in the churches.

1 Corinthians 5:6 (KJV 1900)
Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

This is how God viewed the churches when he gave them warning in the book of Revelation. While some of those in the churches were indeed faithful, the churches as a whole were corrupted. In other words, a little leaven, leavened the whole lump.

If you're interested, I think it would be mor epertinent to discuss from the scriptures how salvation took place to begin with before trying to prove that it can be lost. My hope is that once it's laid out from the scriptures what the correct way of salvation was, that the doctrine of the loss of salvation will correct itself. So, let me begin with a question, did obedience to any commandment of the Bible ever result in salvation?

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

That, again, is your opinion, not the Word of God. You do not follow the whole of the Word, just a subset.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. (NKJV, Hebrews 6:4-6)​

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A DOG RETURNS TO HIS OWN VOMIT,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” (NKJV, 2 Peter 2:20-22)​

Rev 3:16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.​

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.​

In the above scripture, the Lampstand refers to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is depicted in scripture as seven lamps.



Vesres, which you quote about "not by the will of man", does not mean that man's will plays no part as we see here:

Joh 14:15-16 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— ... Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.​

Note the order of receiving the Spirit, we receive the word, we obey the word, the Father (because of this fact) loves us, and then comes and makes a home with us.

Your order is that the Father loves us, makes a home with us, and then we obey the word. But that is not the order Jesus taught. Neither was it taught in the Old Testament.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.​

There is a two way Choice not based upon "God's will", but man's. As I stated, all the Early Church Fathers also attested.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. (Irenaeus , Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 37)​

The verse you quote from John about God's will, I believe is referring to the fact that salvation comes in the way God ordains, not the way man wants it. An idolater makes their own God. A Jew rests on the Law, but salvation comes through Christ, "His way".





You are twisting the plain, and obvious meaning of the scripture. Again, I will quote the plain scripture.

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (NKJV, 1 Timothy 4:10)​

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And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (NKJV, 1John 2:2)​

Your doctrine is not supported by the "whole of scripture", nor by the Earliest Church Fathers. If it is causing people to walk away from God, you need to be serious and sober about what you teach.

I am rarely impressed but you speak the truth here, so I will follow you as your comments follow what it actually written in the bible!

Blessings and ill catch you later.