Different levels of torture in hell

[supportisrael35]

I like to debate atheists and one thing that got me thinking is it seems logical that people who scoff and consciously reject God would worse eternal torture than someone who God never gave a chance to be saved (like a muslim who never heard of christ)

What do you think? I know it is not in hte bible but it seems like logic

 

[TimRout]

Your position presupposes that God gives people a "chance" to believe. Since God saves perfectly and unconditionally all whom He calls unto repentance, the basis of your argument seems problematic.

 

[Faith.Man]

I like to debate atheists and one thing that got me thinking is it seems logical that people who scoff and consciously reject God would worse eternal torture than someone who God never gave a chance to be saved (like a muslim who never heard of christ)

What do you think? I know it is not in hte bible but it seems like logic

I do believe you are correct, that their are levels of punishment in Hell, just as their are levels of rewards in Heaven. I think there are scriptures to support this position, but I would take me awhile to find them. But just looking at this logically, it makes sense that to those that much is given, much is expected; with the converse also being true.

 

[Glorthac]

Luke 12:42-48:
And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom [his] lord shall make ruler over his household, to give [them their] portion of meat in due season?
Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

 

[Vince53]

While I was looking it up, my friend Glorthac posted it.

Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

 

[supportisrael35]

Good points about those verses. Never interpreted the parable that way before now

 

[Webers_Home]

.
RE: (like a muslim who never heard of christ)

I would have to say that a Muslim who never heard of Christ would be a very poorly-catechized Muslim since he's in the Koran.

To locate Jesus in an electronic Koran, use either Isa or Messiah for search words.

Islam's Jesus wasn't crucified.

The Women [4.157] . . And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

Though Islam's Jesus existed; he was an ordinary human being and nothing more.

The Family of Imran [3.59] . . Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.

The Dinner Table [5.75] . .The Messiah, son of Marium is but an apostle; apostles before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman; they both used to eat food. See how We make the communications clear to them, then behold, how they are turned away.

The Immunity [9.30] . . And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

RE: is it seems logical that people who scoff and consciously reject God would worse eternal torture than someone who God never gave a chance to be saved

Although the reservoir of liquefied flame depicted at Rev 19:20, 20:11-15, and 21:8 is very serious, I should think that what happens to people before they even set foot in the reservoir, is pretty frightening too because the justice of God is very thorough: eye for eye, tooth for tooth, stripe for stripe, burning for burning, etc. The scales of justice have to balance. Let me give you an idea of just how serious this really is.

Supposing the penalty for a lie is 5 lashes and the accused has 200 counts of lying against them. That means that each count will receive 5 lashes, adding up to 1,000 lashes for those 200 lies. But that's only the beginning.

Suppose the penalty for using God's name in profanity is 30 lashes, and that same offender's lifetime accumulation is 500 counts of blasphemy; which isn't an unreasonable number of counts for someone who lived to be sixty or seventy. They would be given 30 lashes for each of those 500 counts; adding up to 15,000 lashes on top of the 1,000 they already received for 200 lies.

According to the Bible's Christ, human beings have to answer for not only their serious words, but also for their careless words (Mtt 12:36). Supposing the penalty for defamation of character is 15 lashes and that same offender, over the years— via gossip, demeaning comments, arbitrary accusations, rumor mongering, kangaroo-court convictions, and thoughtless remarks —impugned innocent reputations a total of 85 times. They would receive 15 lashes for each count, adding up to a total of 1,275 lashes.

So then, for just those three crimes alone— lies, blasphemy, and idle words —that individual offender would be given a grand total of 17,275 lashes.

It gets worse. Offenders who knew at the time that what they were doing was wrong, will be punished much more severely than those who did so uninformed.

†. Luke 12:47-48 . . And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

In reality then, long life can be a curse rather than a blessing, and for some people, it would have been far better if they had died as a child than to face God as a senior citizen. By the time the damned are carried out of the courtroom of Rev 20:11-15 to be discarded still breathing into the reservoir of flaming liquid, they will look as though they were dragged through a field of concertina wire and then dropped into a cotton gin.

It's very likely then that many of the damned will not only have their flesh flayed open; but suffer a number of broken bones, paralysis, blindness, deafness, and loss of their capacity to speak intelligibly; because for some offenses, it takes way more than a whipping to set things right.

If it's any consolation, the Bible's God permits ignorance to be a mitigating circumstance (Num 15:27-31) however, the ignorant will still be judged, and the wages of their sins will be death. (Rom 6:23)

Since everyone's first death is due to Adam's sin (Rom 5:12, and 5:17) then the damned will have to die yet one more time to satisfy justice for their own sins. And since there is only one resurrection per person, nobody is coming back from the second death spoken of at Rev 2:11, 20:6, 20:14, and 21:8.

It's surprisingly easy to qualify for residence in the reservoir of liquefied flame. All one has to do is be guilty of at least one of the following sins listed in Rev 21:8, which are:

1) Dishonesty

2) Promiscuity

3) Alchemy (sorcery, voodoo, necromancy, witchcraft, potions, mind altering drugs)

4) Idolatry

5) Repulsive practices (e.g. homosexuality, lesbianism, pedophilia, bestiality, and incest)

6) Murder

Even if one's record were completely clean of sins #2, #3, #4, #5, and #6; they can still qualify for the reservoir via sin #1 by just simply saying something that isn't true. Piece of cake.

And not to forget that one's good never outweighs their bad because bad renders good inadmissible in one's defense.

†. Ezek 3:20 . . When a righteous man turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity . . he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered.

I once knew a man who lived a secular life of greed, selfishness, and debauchery. Towards the end of his life, he gave the poverty-stricken relatives of his third wife $400 to purchase some second hand lumber in order to build themselves a rudimentary home on the hillsides of Tijuana. He proudly boasted: "That's my good deed" Poor delusional soul. Little did he know that good deeds won't count in his favor whatsoever when he's hauled into court to answer to God for his bad deeds.

According to Rom 2:6-11 (besides Ezek 3:20) one's good has to be consistent in order to earn them eternal life. It only takes just one hiccup to break the chain and become inconsistent. In other words, it's futile to be good some of the time, nor even most of the time; no, in order to earn eternal life via one's deeds, they have to be good all the time.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[Lutherin]

Cool, this could be usefull.

Thanks.

 

[Faith.Man]

Most glorious Prince of the Heavenly Armies, Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in "our battle against principalities and powers, against the rulers of this world of darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places" (Eph., 6:12). Come to the assistance of men whom God has created to His likeness and whom He has redeemed at a great price from the tyranny of the devil. Holy Church venereates thee as her guardian and protector; to thee the Lord has entrusted the souls of the redeemed to be led into heaven. Pray therefore the God of Peace to crush Satan beneath our feet, that he may no longer retain men captive and do injury to the Church. Offer our prayers to the Most High, that without delay they may draw His mercy down upon us; take hold of "the dragon, the old serpent, which is the devil and Satan," bind him and cast him into the bottomless pit... "that he may no longer seduce the nations" (Apoc. 20, 2-2).

Pray to the Father, through His Son, our Redeemer Jesus Christ and not to angels. I believe angel worship is unscriptural.

Col 2:18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.

 

[SkyWriting]

I do believe you are correct, that their are levels of punishment in Hell, just as their are levels of rewards in Heaven. I think there are scriptures to support this position, but I would take me awhile to find them. But just looking at this logically, it makes sense that to those that much is given, much is expected; with the converse also being true.

And yet:
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

 

[Faith.Man]

And yet:
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

I agree completely. Romans 1:20 in context bears repeating.

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
Rom 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

 

[SkyWriting]

Ah.. but I wonder how children fare. Of course I trust that the unborn, and the newborn are all given a fair shake, but I sometimes wonder how the fair shake works. There seem to be an accountability for thinking adults and the rest don't get much written about them. Oh well.

 

[SolaVeritas]

Here's my theory, which may or may not be true. Since the Bible calls our God a consuming fire and likens his wrath to fire, I've always assumed that the fire of hell is indeed the wrath of God burning against that person. Unquenching because they have rejected God's provision, the sacrifice of His son. More sins = more wrath = more fire, hence different levels.

But then again.....

Did not Jesus carry the sin of all humanity, past present future? Yes? Can we say, Jesus paid for this man's sin, but if he does not believe, it will still be on his back? How if it is forgiven? Would this not be like saying what Jesus did was not all sufficient? And if I believe this, then there is only one conclusion: People go to hell for rejecting Jesus, which is like trampling Him underfoot. Could this be the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (since the Holy Spirit testifies for Jesus), the ONLY sin that can not be forgiven?
If this is the way it is, then those that go to hell, all go there for the same thing, (because Jesus paid for all their other sins), and then levels wouldn't really make any sense. Unless the torment of their memories makes a different to each.

 

[Why9999]

I like to debate atheists and one thing that got me thinking is it seems logical that people who scoff and consciously reject God would worse eternal torture than someone who God never gave a chance to be saved (like a muslim who never heard of christ)

What do you think? I know it is not in hte bible but it seems like logic

This is the kind of stuff that gives Christians a bad name. There is no torture in hell - God doesn't torture anyone. In fact, the SDA view of hell is just as likely true as yours.

Please, guys, let someone else interact with non-believers if you can't have more sensitivity than this.

 

[SkyWriting]

This is the kind of stuff that gives Christians a bad name. There is no torture in hell - God doesn't torture anyone.

You're correct. The word is "Torment". And I think the meaning is similar yet different. We all know "Torture" to be an outside force. But TORMENT comes from inside. So this does clear things a bit.

The innocent would not be tormented because they never rejected the holy spirit. I'm goin to GUESS that children, even though born in Sin, WILL except a holy spirit when they see one: ) So the innocent, who have not actively rejected the holy spirit, are likely to accept it and not be TORMENTED by their decision not to.

Unless the torment of their memories makes a different to each.

But for those who REJECT the holy spirit...they will indeed be tormented by their decision. And they will wish to drip some water on their tongue to quench the fire. I'm thinking, in the spiritual world, that what they think of as water, is baptism of the spirit. But it will not be available to them. Because of their choice to reject the spirit. A self imposed hell.

A tiny bit like on earth.

 

[Hentenza]

Torture= against one's will. That is not the ways of God.

Torment= self inflicted since rejecting Christ is their will.

I like the CS Lewis quote:

Some will tell God "thy will be done" while God will tell some "thy will be done".

 

[DeaconDean]

Torture= against one's will. That is not the ways of God.

Torment= self inflicted since rejecting Christ is their will.

I like the CS Lewis quote:

Some will tell God "thy will be done" while God will tell some "thy will be done".

I like what Jonathan Edwards said preaching on Rev. 6: 15-16 better:

“Wicked men will hereafter earnestly wish to be turned to nothing and forever cease to be that they may escape the wrath of God.”

Against annilationism, Jonathan Edwards, Heaven and Hell.

R.C. Sproul says:

Summary

1. The suffering of hell is beyond any experience of misery found in this world.
2. Hell is clearly included in the teaching of Jesus.
3. If the biblical descriptions of hell are symbols, then the reality will be worse than the symbols.
4. Hell is the presence of God in His wrath and judgment.
5. There is no cruelty in hell. Hell will be a place of perfect justice.
6. Hell is eternal. There is no escape through either repentance or annihilation.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[SkyWriting]

R.C. Sproul says:

On such an important subject all studies SHOULD include
reference back to the source material...
which is missing from this list of "facts"
and I feel invalidates it.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
RE: Did not Jesus carry the sin of all humanity, past present future?

Yes.

†. Isa 53:6 . . Yhvh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

†. John 3:16-17 . . God so cared for the world, that He donated His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be spared.

†. 1Tim 2:6 . .Who gave himself a ransom for all

†. 1Tim 4:10 . .We trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men

†. 1John 2:2 . . He himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

RE: Can we say, Jesus paid for this man's sin, but if he does not believe, it will still be on his back?

Yes, you can say that.

†. Mrk 16:15-16 . . And he said unto them: Go into all the world, and preach the gospel everywhere to everybody. He that believes and is baptized shall be spared; but he that disbelieves shall be damned.

†. John 3:18 . . Whoever believes on him is not condemned: but he that disbelieves is condemned already

†. John 3:36 . . Whoever believes on the Son has eternal life: but the individual that disbelieves the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.

†. John 8:24 . . If you disbelieve that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

RE: Would this not be like saying what Jesus did was not all sufficient?

He's all-sufficient for believers, while totally useless to disbelievers.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who heed my message, and trust in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from Death into Life.

†. Rev 21:8 . . Unbelievers shall have their part in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death.

RE: then there is only one conclusion: People go to hell for rejecting Jesus

It isn't necessary to reject Jesus in order to go to Hell; and that's because Hell isn't optional; no, Hell is the default.

There's an incident in Num 21:5-9 where Yhvh's people got to complaining about the quality of food that God was supplying for their daily needs. As retribution for their insolence and shameful ingratitude, the Lord sent a swarm of deadly poisonous reptiles into camp. Everyone bitten by them instantly became a dead-man-walking because the venom was 100% fatal, no exceptions. When the people realized their blunder, they begged Moses to intercede for them and the Lord instructed Moses to construct an effigy of the reptiles and hoist it up on a pole where everybody could see it. Those who looked at the effigy were cured; those who didn't of course died.

Jesus likened the necessity of his crucifixion to that very incident. In other words, had not Christ been crucified; absolutely nobody would go to heaven because everybody is, without exception, a dead man walking.

†. John 3:14-15 . . Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

†. Eph 2:1-5 . . As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, and were by nature, objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions

RE: Could this be the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (since the Holy Spirit testifies for Jesus), the ONLY sin that can not be forgiven?

The Greek word for blasphemy is blasphemia (blas-fay-me'-ah) which means: vilification; which Webster's defines as: a defamatory utterance: e.g. slander, unfounded allegations, and/or malicious gossip.

In context (Mtt 12:24-32) the blasphemy about which Jesus spoke is an accusation that Christ is a member of a satanic cult.

RE: trampling Him underfoot.

It isn't necessary to write Jesus off as a member of a satanic cult in order to qualify for the retribution described at Heb 10:26-31. It's only necessary that upon hearing of Jesus' crucifixion, one blow off his death as little more worthy of their attention than that of a common man.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[DeaconDean]

On such an important subject all studies SHOULD include
reference back to the source material...
which is missing from this list of "facts"
and I feel invalidates it.

Just FYI:

R.C. Sproul, Hell

God Bless

Till all are one.