Difference in belief

[The Brown Brink]

Hi Guys, I need some advice.

I am a Christian and I have seen some people differ in their belief as to exactly what Christians believe. My belief is that your salvation/ever lasting life is obtained through your faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross. That you are saved by faith and faith alone.

Now my problem is that I am in a relationship with a woman for a year and a half. She is Old Apostolic, the religion basically originated in South Africa.

They use the Bible, but they interpret it spiritually. They also go to church 6 days a week including twice on Sunday's. They are very faithful and their religion is held very high.

They also believe that you basically work through faith for your salvation and that is a fundamental difference. The other big difference is that they believe that Jesus was only an example that God sent us to show how to live, he had the gift of Christ in him and we must all strive to live like he did. When Jesus died he rose in the mind of people, so that Christ gift rose and not the physical body of Christ. So that being said they do not believe that Jesus will come again because he already came. They also believe that the Church is the body of Christ and thus when they refer to Jesus/the Son then they refer to the Church.

Before I met her I was single for a long time and asked Jesus to send me a faithful girl to spend my life with. I received exactly what i asked for, well exempt that her belief differs from mine.

I am not sure why it turned out like this and what to do. Why did God put me in this situation?

I have to basically change to their religion if i ever want to marry her btw.

Also they believe in Visions and Dreams and that is the way God speaks to us, the scary thing is that some of the dreams they spoke about actually happens exactly how it was seen. This is the only thing that makes me confused, because why will they get visions and dreams that is exactly to the point of how it was given. God warns them through visions and dreams, it actually makes one think.

I don't think you have a problem...
She believes in Jesus.
You believe in Jesus.

 

[Dan61861]

shinoobi,

I think you should reread some of the things you yourself wrote in this thread. Your answer is in your own words.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Hi Guys, I need some advice.

I am a Christian and I have seen some people differ in their belief as to exactly what Christians believe. My belief is that your salvation/ever lasting life is obtained through your faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross. That you are saved by faith and faith alone.

Now my problem is that I am in a relationship with a woman for a year and a half. She is Old Apostolic, the religion basically originated in South Africa.

They use the Bible, but they interpret it spiritually. They also go to church 6 days a week including twice on Sunday's. They are very faithful and their religion is held very high.

They also believe that you basically work through faith for your salvation and that is a fundamental difference. The other big difference is that they believe that Jesus was only an example that God sent us to show how to live, he had the gift of Christ in him and we must all strive to live like he did. When Jesus died he rose in the mind of people, so that Christ gift rose and not the physical body of Christ. So that being said they do not believe that Jesus will come again because he already came. They also believe that the Church is the body of Christ and thus when they refer to Jesus/the Son then they refer to the Church.

Before I met her I was single for a long time and asked Jesus to send me a faithful girl to spend my life with. I received exactly what i asked for, well exempt that her belief differs from mine.

I am not sure why it turned out like this and what to do. Why did God put me in this situation?

I have to basically change to their religion if i ever want to marry her btw.

Also they believe in Visions and Dreams and that is the way God speaks to us, the scary thing is that some of the dreams they spoke about actually happens exactly how it was seen. This is the only thing that makes me confused, because why will they get visions and dreams that is exactly to the point of how it was given. God warns them through visions and dreams, it actually makes one think.

When I was involved with the occult, I could say the same thing about visions and dreams coming true. That is not proof they are from God. If you look around online you will see that group is in fact a cult, Old Apostolic church cult - Norton Safe Search

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I don't think you have a problem...
She believes in Jesus.
You believe in Jesus.

Which Jesus?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Here is a good summary of that Cult's errors: What everyone should know about the Old Apostolic Church

 

[The Brown Brink]

Which Jesus?

There's only one.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

New Apostolic Church EXPOSED!

Old Apostolic Church, New Apostolic Church, and all their branches

 

[The Brown Brink]

There's only one Jesus.
And if you really believe in Jesus, you won't have much trouble getting along with someone else who really believes in Jesus.
That's the idea.

 

[com7fy8]

"When Jesus died he rose in the mind of people, so that Christ gift rose and not the physical body of Christ. So that being said they do not believe that Jesus will come again because he already came."
"I have to basically change to their religion if i ever want to marry her btw."

I believe you know that Jesus was resurrected in His body. So, there is no way you could change to their religion, because that would mean you have changed from believing what the Bible clearly says is true. Jesus showed Himself to His disciples and ate with them and let them feel His resurrected body.

So, you are not the one who needs to change.

There are people who can act culturally faithful and subservient and obedient, but it is not with the right beliefs, and so it can be in a wrong spirit; and so you need to not yoke yourself with ones who are very culturally religious and can seem to be so about family but are not obeying what God wants us to believe.

Beware of being charmed by people who show you the family life that you may be wishing for.

Their beliefs are a very clear contradiction to the Bible, not only a slight mix-up in ideas because of interpretations of words.

Also they believe in Visions and Dreams and that is the way God speaks to us, the scary thing is that some of the dreams they spoke about actually happens exactly how it was seen. This is the only thing that makes me confused, because why will they get visions and dreams that is exactly to the point of how it was given. God warns them through visions and dreams, it actually makes one think.

An interesting thing about something being told and then coming to pass is how it can mean that God has absolute control of everything.

But if false people are having dreams and they come to pass, this can mean their wrong spiritual kingdom has been allowed by God to do this. Also, humans can claim to have a dream, then cause it to happen, so it is all a human-level production.

But the Bible is clear, how our Heavenly Father pleases to personally guide us "continually" (Isaiah 58:11). And He has called us all "in one body" to be personally ruled by Him in His own peace in our "hearts" < this is very personal . . . in the heart of each child of His >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

So, our Heavenly Father does not have us only or mainly depending on visions and dreams and other people. But in every one of us He is personally ruling us . . . deeper than words . . . in His own peace . . . more and more as we grow and mature in this.

So, by the way, in case you spend time with these people, you can note if and how they react to things like death and troubles and conflicts > you might be able to see if they are emotionally sound in God's peace . . . or not exactly, because of some spirit other than God's Holy Spirit. And, also, with orthodox people make sure about if they really are depending on our Father to "continually" (Isaiah 58:11) guide us in His own peace, or are they, also, trying to take us over with their own ways of wanting to control and guide us?

There are orthodox ones who can charm us by saying what they know we want to hear. Make sure with God about whom you belong with Compare how people relate with how the scriptures say we need to relate in His love, including 1 Peter 5:3, Ephesians 5:21, Ephesians 4:31-5:2, and James 1:19-20. But ones can put on an act of this; so be prayerful with God, and submit to how He guides you

 

[Daniel Marsh]

There's only one.

2 Corinthians 11:4 [Full Chapter]
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Galatians 1:6-7
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

"
ROLE OF THE APOSTLE

1. The authority of the Bible is subordinate to the authority of the Apostle. The apostle's word carries more weight than the Bible. The Bible is regarded as a compilation of lifeless letters which lead to death. Only the apostle's word can give life. Often an apostle points to the Bible and exclaims, "This is not the Word of God! The Word of God is the Word that comes from the mouth of the apostle." The apostle speaks with divine authority. The Bible is simply a compilation of divine promises, commandments and deeds. It is considered a handy reference but the church does not believe that it can take the place of the apostle's words. Question 37 of the catechism asks, "Can we receive salvation and everlasting life through (Catechism Question 11b). Question 35 asks, "Who has been sent to preach the Gospel?" Answer: "The apostles, as clearly shown in 1 Thess 2:13..."

2. The apostle controls the entrance to heaven. The apostle has the power to seal souls for eternal salvation (in other words to regenerate), or to lock someone out of heaven. "This is a very authoritative act of which even the Pope of Rome may be envious," said Dr Jac Muller. The similarity between the Old Apostles and the Roman Catholic Church is obvious. Salvation is possible only through the apostle; for those who believe in Christ through the apostles (Catechism Question 36 & 49). To the apostles only has been given knowledge of the mysteries of the Kingdom of heaven (Catechism Question 5 & 50, e & f). People can only come to faith through the words spoken by an apostle: without the apostles no-one can become a believer. The church interprets Mt 10:40 to mean that no-one can see the Father or Christ if they do not accept the apostle, for, "Whoever welcomes you, welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me, welcomes the one who sent me." The apostles are the only people with whom God speaks directly (Catechism Question 25), who understand the Scriptures (Catechism Question 38), who know God (Catechism Question 24), who speak the wisdom of God (Catechism Question 50c), are able to forgive sins (Catechism Question 47), and who are going to judge the earth (Catechism Question 41).

3. The apostles are Christ's substitutes on earth. Just like the pope of the Roman Catholic Church, the apostles are "God's substitutes for Jesus Christ in the flesh on earth". They are the foundation on which Christ built his church, therefore all other churches are false churches. The position of the apostle in fact replaces the mediatorship of Jesus Christ. There can be no remission of sins through an invisible Christ. The church claims that when Jesus ascended to heaven, He actually ascended into the apostles in whom he is now visible. Thus it is claimed that no reconciliation with God is possible but by grace and through the position of the apostle. The apostles are charged with the following tasks: they seal believers with the Holy Spirit and incorporate them into the body of Christ. This sealing is on a par with rebirth, without which no-one will gain entry into heaven. They also forgive sins, baptise with water and Spirit, and select the office bearers. However, the church does not use the term "rebirth" at all, nor do the apostles preach about it: they refer to it.

4. The apostles are the only people who may curse. People who leave the Apostle Church are in danger of being cursed. There is proof that this often happens. There is the case of 'Betty' who resigned from the church. After being cursed by the apostle, she apparently went insane and consequently died. Some members claim that the fear of being cursed is the main reason why people seldom leave the church." What everyone should know about the Old Apostolic Church

"
Our Creed

Article 1: I believe in God, the Father, the Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth.

Article 2: I believe in Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried, entered the realm of the dead, rose again from the dead on the third day, and ascended into heaven. He is seated at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty, from where He will return.

Article 3: I believe in the Holy Spirit, the one, holy, universal, and apostolic church, the community of the saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the dead, and life everlasting.

Article 4: I believe that the Lord Jesus rules His Church and thereto sent His Apostles, and until His return, still sends them with the commission to teach, to forgive sins in His name and to baptize with water and Holy Spirit.

Article 5: I believe that those designated by God for a ministry are ordained only by Apostles, and that authority, blessing, and sanctification for their ministration come forth out of the Apostle ministry.

Article 6: I believe that the Holy Baptism with water is the first step to a renewal of a human being in the Holy Spirit, and that the person baptized is adopted into the fellowship of those who believe in Jesus Christ and profess Him as their Lord.

Article 7: I believe that Holy Communion was instituted by the Lord Himself in memory of the once brought, fully valid sacrifice, and bitter suffering and death of Christ. The worthy partaking of Holy Communion establishes our fellowship with Jesus Christ, our Lord. It is celebrated with unleavened bread and wine; both must be consecrated and dispensed by a minister authorized by an Apostle.

Article 8: I believe that those baptized with water must, through an Apostle, receive the gift of the Holy Spirit to attain the childhood in God and thereby the prerequisite for becoming a firstling.

Article 9: I believe that the Lord Jesus will return as surely as He ascended into heaven and that He will take to Himself the first fruits of the dead and living who have hoped for and were prepared for His coming; that after the marriage in heaven He will return to earth with them, to establish His kingdom of peace and that they will reign with Him as a royal priesthood. After the conclusion of the kingdom of peace, He will hold the Last Judgment. Then God will create a new heaven and a new earth and dwell with His people.

Article 10: I believe that I am obliged to obey the worldly authorities provided no godly laws are thereby transgressed.
" New Apostolic Church USA - What we believe

New Apostolic Church USA - Catechism

What everyone should know about the Old Apostolic Church

https://www.unbannedbiblepublications.com/index_files/Page37013.htm

 

[Daniel Marsh]

"and in the administering, through the living for the dead, of the three Holy Sacraments unto the souls in the realm of the dead." Old Apostolic Church of Africa - Home

"
NAC members hold to a bizarre and unscriptural doctrine called Service for the Departed...

The deceased must fulfil the same conditions as living members of the NAC. They also need to believe in the Apostles of the NAC and to receive baptism, holy sealing and communion. From time to time Chief Apostle unlocks the place of the dead ones. Deceased Apostles can only talk to the dead ones; 'saving' has to be done on earth by living Apostles.

SOURCE: Doctrine of the New Apostolic Church

Here are the same heresies taught on the NAC website...

Our celebration of Service for the Departed is in no way contradictory to Old Testament prohibitions against spiritualism and calling up the dead (See Deuteronomy 18:10,11). There is a tremendous difference between necromancy and ministering to souls in eternity. Jesus did not defy biblical prohibition when He went into eternity to minister to souls or when He called Lazarus out of the tomb. These were not acts of darkness or superstition but rather acts of love and compassion. It is love and compassion that motivates us in the Service for the Departed. Souls in eternity need to receive the treasures of Jesus Christ. Their condition is not hopeless. They are not beyond the loving reach of the Lord. He began this ministering in eternity. The Apostles of Christ and believing souls continue it.

Services for the Departed are held on the first Sunday of March, July and November.

"New Apostolic Church EXPOSED!

Old Apostolic church dead baptism - Norton Safe Search

 

[Daniel Marsh]

There's only one Jesus.
And if you really believe in Jesus, you won't have much trouble getting along with someone else who really believes in Jesus.
That's the idea.

I get along with many people regardless of who they believe Jesus is.

There are false Christs, false Prophets, false Apostles and false Gospels.

Fact is there is only one true Jesus and one true Gospel.

They have a false gospel where one must be baptized or sealed by their Apostle alone.

You can download their books online.

If you trace their history back, it goes to Edward Irving, who is a well known false prophet.

"
Irving was particularly interested in prophecy. He predicted there would be a widespread outpouring of the Holy Spirit and that the Jews would return to their own land. These have both happened in the first half of this century. Irving thought it would be much sooner. He believed the Millennium would commence in 1867.

Obviously, he had a devil, for the Holy Ghost does not give false prophecy.

" Edward Irving-- Founder of Pagan forms now seen in Brownsville

The making of the New Apostolic Church (3): God gives an Apostle: New Apostolic Church International (NAC)

Edward Irving false prophecy - Norton Safe Search

 

[Daniel Marsh]

"Edward Irving declared that there will be a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit and then Jesus would return. This is in stark contrast to what the OAC believe today.

Catechism of the Old Apostolic Church of Africa…Part 2; Question 27 (pages 62-63):
“Has Christ already come, or do we still expect him?” (Sic)
“Ans. (a) Because the world expects that Christ will come on a natural cloud, they still look forward to his coming. From Matt. 16 v. 28, it is however clear, that Christ must already have come…”
“Ans. (b) From 2 Tim. 4 v. 7-8 it is clear that Christ must already have come during Apostle Paul’s life on earth…”
“Ans. (c) For us Christ has come, and we see Him, because it is revealed to us through the Holy Spirit and is our life…”

Catechism of the Old Apostolic Church of Africa…Part 2; Question 31 (page 65):
“On which clouds will Christ appear?”
“Ans. We must not confuse these clouds with natural clouds... It is the cloud of witnesses… It is the same cloud under which the flock of God was led out of Egypt…”

Catechism of the Old Apostolic Church of Africa…Part 2; Question 40 (page 68):
“Can a church of God be established out of the scriptures?” (Sic)
“Ans. No: God Himself has ordained His church through Jesus of Nazareth and the scriptures testify of this church.”

From question 40 above it’s obvious that Edward Irving was wasting his time if the church of God had already been ordained."
Old Apostolic Church revealed: History - Edward Irving

 

[Daniel Marsh]

A collection of extracts from various periodicals, referring to Edward Irving

Start reading this above book around page 179 for excuses to his false prophecies

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Bump for those who want to see the documentation

 

[Blade]

shinoobi, truth is Christ.. that is.. Yeshua/Jesus came in the flesh was born of the virgin Mary. Died on the cross for the worlds sins. Was buried. Rose the 3rd day and is the only way to the Father.

Now.. that is salvation. One has to believe Jesus came died rose and is the only way to the Father. There is no other way in. HE IS REAL! I didnt make this up.. John 3:16-17 Rom 10:9-10. Now if your girl friend believes this..she as any other is saved. If they do not believe Jesus died rose is the only way to Heaven for He walked this earth 40 days after He rose. So to NOT believe He rose.. they are not saved. There is NO other way in.. no other person on this earth from Adam to the last person.. can get us in. It has to be through Jesus and Him alone.

Now "Why did God put me in this situation?" He didnt. If HE sent her.. she would have believed Jesus is lord and died and rose. He is not the author of confusion. Forgive me ..YOU alone have to make a choice... not talking marrying. You/we can marry anyone we want.

This is what He says.. what do YOU want? For HE will not make the choice for us. Are WE willing to give up EVERYTHING for Him? Where you are..HE did not put you there. YOU made the choice. You believed it was from Him. It was not....so.. what do you want?

 

[Aseyesee]

Hi Guys, I need some advice.

I am a Christian and I have seen some people differ in their belief as to exactly what Christians believe. My belief is that your salvation/ever lasting life is obtained through your faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross. That you are saved by faith and faith alone.

Now my problem is that I am in a relationship with a woman for a year and a half. She is Old Apostolic, the religion basically originated in South Africa.

They use the Bible, but they interpret it spiritually. They also go to church 6 days a week including twice on Sunday's. They are very faithful and their religion is held very high.

They also believe that you basically work through faith for your salvation and that is a fundamental difference. The other big difference is that they believe that Jesus was only an example that God sent us to show how to live, he had the gift of Christ in him and we must all strive to live like he did. When Jesus died he rose in the mind of people, so that Christ gift rose and not the physical body of Christ. So that being said they do not believe that Jesus will come again because he already came. They also believe that the Church is the body of Christ and thus when they refer to Jesus/the Son then they refer to the Church.

Before I met her I was single for a long time and asked Jesus to send me a faithful girl to spend my life with. I received exactly what i asked for, well exempt that her belief differs from mine.

I am not sure why it turned out like this and what to do. Why did God put me in this situation?

I have to basically change to their religion if i ever want to marry her btw.

Also they believe in Visions and Dreams and that is the way God speaks to us, the scary thing is that some of the dreams they spoke about actually happens exactly how it was seen. This is the only thing that makes me confused, because why will they get visions and dreams that is exactly to the point of how it was given. God warns them through visions and dreams, it actually makes one think.

Not all of their doctrine is erroneous, and they say their are over 34,000 Christian denominations, which I'm sure practically everyone of them would say they have the correct interpretation.

Do you personally believe your footsteps are ordered of the Lord?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Not all of their doctrine is erroneous, and they say their are over 34,000 Christian denominations, which I'm sure practically everyone of them would say they have the correct interpretation.

Do you personally believe your footsteps are ordered of the Lord?

The source for the high number of denominations is seriously flawed in its definition of denomination. In fact, it lists over 200 Catholic ones alone.

 

[Aseyesee]

The source for the high number of denominations is seriously flawed in its definition of denomination. In fact, it lists over 200 Catholic ones alone.

I've been alive long enough to see the process people go through to create division based on what they think they believe, and yet it's reciprocal, and common to man.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

World Christian Encyclopedia (Barrett, Kurian, and Johnson; Oxford University Press) is the source of the inflated numbers.

"
The WCE defines “denomination” thus:

an organized aggregate of worship centers or congregations of similar ecclesiastical tradition within a specific country … whose component congregations and members are called by the same denominational name in different areas, regarding themselves as one autonomous Christian church distinct from other denominations, churches, and traditions."

"
The WCE then goes on to break down “world Christianity” into the following broad categories:

• Independents: 22,000 denominations
• Protestants: 9000 denominations
• Marginals: 1600 denominations
• Orthodox: 781 denominations
• Catholics: 242 denominations
• Anglicans: 168 denominations

Thus the immediate problem is that the WCE only classifies 9000 denominations (27% of the whole) as Protestant. To get to 33,000, one must add in the Independents, Marginals, Anglicans, and 232 of the Orthodox.

Among the 23,600 “Independents” and “Marginals” (70% of the whole) are large numbers of groups one would have a hard time calling Protestant. They include Mormons (122 denominations), Jehovah’s Witnesses (229 denominations), Masons (28 denominations), Christadelphians (21 denominations) Unitarians (29 denominations), Christian Science (59 denominations), Theosophists (3 more denominations), British Israelites (8 denominations), Prosperity Gospel groups (27 denominations), Oneness Pentecostals (680 denominations), “Hidden Buddhist Believers in Christ” (9 denominations), wandering bishops (12 denominations), Independent Nestorians (5 denominations), occultists (3 denominations), spiritists (20 denominations), Zionists (159 denominations), even “Arab radio/TV network” (19 denominations), “gay/homosexual tradition” (2 denominations), and schismatic Catholics (435 denominations). It is a strange and eclectic list."
We Need to Stop Saying That There Are 33,000 Protestant Denominations
We Need to Stop Saying That There Are 33,000 Protestant Denominations


I have seen church splits myself. In my experience splits were based on personalities, not doctrine which was used as the excuse.