Did God forget Luke 14:28-32?

[BelieveItOarKnot]

If God can’t logically be extracted from anything that transpires from his creation. Then why does scripture say that men are without excuse because through creation points to Him.

God Himself bound everyone to disobedience no matter how ignorant we are of it or how much we like about it, hide it or deny the fact of it

No amount of freewill made any person sinless

 

[Der Alte]

You really need to look in the mirror and read that to yourself. We all have error in our beliefs I do and so do you, our only “job” is to try to understand the infinite concepts in scripture and get as close to what God is calling us to as we can. If scripture was as clear as you think it is there would be very little disagreement but I have been in Christian Ministry for over 50 years and have seen a lot I have had the privilege of serving in other cultures and believe me there are many views of what God wants and no one has it down 100% . The road I am on now is the best way to explain the whole of scripture and what God has done is doing and will do that I have ever seen. Do I understand everything no but I now have a lot less questions now that I don’t understand.

A person who tells another "You really need to look in the mirror and read that to yourself" in all likelihood needs to apply that to themselves. I too have been involved in Christian ministry for more than 50 years and in other cultures. Once a week I attend a service where I read the benediction in both English and Korean.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

God Himself bound everyone to disobedience no matter how ignorant we are of it or how much we like about it, hide it or deny the fact of it

No amount of freewill made any person sinless

You forgot the rest of the verse Rom 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on ALL . And who said that free will makes people sinless? That’s just plain false.

 

[Der Alte]

We've discussed this at length. Your positional view of people is lacking, therefore your positional sights are skewered and off kilter

Meaningless generalities. Not nobody, not no how has clearly shown me that I misinterpret any of the scriptures I have posted in support of my position that God will not save every person who ever lived. Maybe you can be the first.
Jeremiah 13:11-14, Matthew 7:21-23, Romans 1:24, Romans 1:26, Romans 1:28, Revelation 22:11, Revelation 22:15

 

[Der Alte]

You forgot the rest of the verse Rom 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on ALL . And who said that free will makes people sinless? That’s just plain false.

"That "He might" NOT will, "have mercy on all" see e.g. Jeremiah 13:14.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

"That "He might" NOT will, "have mercy on all" see e.g. Jeremiah 13:14.

Stings Lexicon number 1653 elee’o definition To have mercy, To show compassion, to be merciful. It doesn’t say anything about might , it seems that the Greek word itself means what the definition is it’s just what he does.

 

[johansen]

Interesting that isn’t it? You confess you were in fellowship with a man who was so apostate and deluded that he cursed God and then killed himself and yet you are wise enough to decide that the word is wrong because Isaiah 45.7 is actually pretty clear even to babes.

You really dont know the whole story and seem bent on accusing me of things you dont know about.

As for isaiah 45, you cant have it both ways. And if as one person here says free will is deception, then he didnt kill himself lol.

I hadn't spoken to him from 2018 till 2020 when i get a phone call from him telling me a lot of the information i mentioned. I think we spoke briefly in 2021, his health had been declining.

 

[johansen]

You forgot the rest of the verse Rom 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on ALL . And who said that free will makes people sinless? That’s just plain false.

All who will receive it. If not, they, if they did once abide on the vine, will be broken off, and gathered up to be burned.

 

[Der Alte]

Stings Lexicon number 1653 elee’o definition To have mercy, To show compassion, to be merciful. It doesn’t say anything about might , it seems that the Greek word itself means what the definition is it’s just what he does.

Read this website Strong's Concordance A good tool gone bad.

Strong’s Concordance – a Good Tool Gone Bad

To download the entire article, click here Shogren_Strongs Concordance For Bible students who don’t use Hebrew and Greek, the Strong Concordance is a popular tool, available online. [1] But it has …

openoureyeslord.com

According to the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible
Rom 11:32 Indeed, God has bound all human beings to disobedience, so that he might have mercy on all.
Greek has been the language of the Greek orthodox since the church was created.

Orthodox New Testament : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Eastern / Orthodox Bible: New TestamentBased on the Septuagint and the Patriarchal Text

archive.org

 

[Jeff Saunders]

All who will receive it. If not, they, if they did once abide on the vine, will be broken off, and gathered up to be burned.

Where does it say all that receive it ? That is a declaration no different than in John when he says “ Jesus is the Christ the savior of the world “ that is a declaration not a possible savior if you do your part.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Read this website Strong's Concordance A good tool gone bad.

Strong’s Concordance – a Good Tool Gone Bad

To download the entire article, click here Shogren_Strongs Concordance For Bible students who don’t use Hebrew and Greek, the Strong Concordance is a popular tool, available online. [1] But it has …

openoureyeslord.com

According to the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible
Rom 11:32 Indeed, God has bound all human beings to disobedience, so that he might have mercy on all.
Greek has been the language of the Greek orthodox since the church was created.

Orthodox New Testament : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Eastern / Orthodox Bible: New TestamentBased on the Septuagint and the Patriarchal Text

archive.org

So you’re saying that the strongs is wrong?

 

[Der Alte]

Where does it say all that receive it ? That is a declaration no different than in John when he says “ Jesus is the Christ the savior of the world “ that is a declaration not a possible savior if you do your part.

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many will say to me in that day,[judgement day] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

When Jesus says "never" He does not mean some day by and by.

 

[Der Alte]

So you’re saying that the strongs is wrong?

The Eastern Greek Orthodox New Testament does.

 

[johansen]

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Meaningless generalities

You've already admitted you can't get the connection that devils occupy mankind in the form of temptations, deceptions, spiritual blindness, lawless thoughts, evil thoughts, lies, fears, obfuscations, theft, destruction and eventually even death.

I'd suggest perhaps your positions are void of a very large element of scriptures, the devil and his messengers and your focus is only on condemning the captives of the devils rather than looking at their and all of our situation here on earth

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Has God bound you to disobedience?

I'll raise my hand on that one, knowing well enough the workings of our mutual adversary

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

You forgot the rest of the verse Rom 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on ALL . And who said that free will makes people sinless? That’s just plain false.

And there are specific scriptures that apply to the devil and his messengers that exempt them from the all. That's where your position fails to account

 

[Johan2222]

You really dont know the whole story and seem bent on accusing me of things you dont know about.

As for isaiah 45, you cant have it both ways. And if as one person here says free will is deception, then he didnt kill himself lol.

I am not quoting the whole story. I only quoted the parts you told me about and applied the reasoning of scripture to your specific claims and that’s what offends you.

Were you lying about what you said?

Does God creating light mean a man does not have free will to walk in darkness?

Does God creating evil mean a man does not have free will to walk in righteousness?

What utterly ridiculous reasoning.

Just because some double minded on this forum have come up with this folly and just because you find it worthy of referring to does not mean that such foolishness applies to me my friend.

Hardly surprising you get yourself so tied up in nots believing such ridiculous theories are even worthy of mention.

Have you ignored James 3.1 and Hebrews 12.8 to your peril?

A man cannot get there before he gets up from his comfortable chair in his nice house with all his trimmings and ornaments and escapes the double mindedness by applying Hebrews 5.8 to his life friend.

Luke 14.33 is not a lie you know and nor is Isaiah 45.7 as you claim.

 

[HIM]

"That "He might" NOT will, "have mercy on all" see e.g. Jeremiah 13:14.

Amen

Read this website Strong's Concordance A good tool gone bad.

Strong’s Concordance – a Good Tool Gone Bad

To download the entire article, click here Shogren_Strongs Concordance For Bible students who don’t use Hebrew and Greek, the Strong Concordance is a popular tool, available online. [1] But it has …

openoureyeslord.com

According to the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible
Rom 11:32 Indeed, God has bound all human beings to disobedience, so that he might have mercy on all.
Greek has been the language of the Greek orthodox since the church was created.

Orthodox New Testament : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Eastern / Orthodox Bible: New TestamentBased on the Septuagint and the Patriarchal Text

archive.org

Human beings is not in the Greek. see below

So you’re saying that the strongs is wrong?

Strongs does not get into the grammar and syntax. It is a simple Lexicon and concordance. There is nothing wrong with it. But it can be confusing because it as most don't share on the grammar, so you don't get the full picture.

God Himself bound everyone to disobedience no matter how ignorant we are of it or how much we like about it, hide it or deny the fact of it

See below

No amount of freewill made any person sinless

Christ through the Holy Spirit has

Stings Lexicon number 1653 elee’o definition To have mercy, To show compassion, to be merciful. It doesn’t say anything about might , it seems that the Greek word itself means what the definition is it’s just what he does.

The Greek word is in the subjunctive mood. We took the time to share on this a day or so ago. But it seems you missed or ignored it. Here is that part of the post again.

Romans is a big letter. This verse you isolated from the rest of the chapter and letter does not address the passages shared to you or the context to which they are found. And it is being stated in the subjunctive mood. It’s that not-quite-concrete wording one would use when they're discussing things they want to happen, hope will happen or anticipate will happen. NOT THAT IT WILL HAPPEN. Hence the word might in the translation you used.

In regard to that translation. They missed the mark a bit. But most translations do. The issue is there is a Them also in the clause, "He might have mercy on THEM all." So to be correct the verse needs to be translated as Anderson's translation, The Bible in Basic English by Cambridge Press, Lexham English Bible did, posted here respectively.

Rom 11:32 For God has delivered them all over to unbelief, that he may have mercy on them all.

Rom 11:32 For God has let them all go against his orders, so that he might have mercy on them all.

Rom 11:32 For God confined them all in disobedience, in order that he could have mercy on them all.

Here is the Greek.

Rom 11:32 συνέκλεισεν Shut Up Together γὰρ For ὁ θεὸς God τοὺς them πάντας All εἰς In ἀπείθειαν Disobedience, ἵνα That τοὺς those (them) πάντας All ἐλεήσῃ He Might Show Mercy To.

τοὺς is the plural form of τοῦ. Here is the definition by Strong.

G5120 τοῦ tou (tou') n.
of this person.
[(properly) the genitive case of G3588, sometimes used for G5127]
KJV: his
Root(s): G3588, G5127
[?]

It being in the plural form is why the translation you used, and a lot of other translations translate it as them in the first clause, "For God has committed them all to disobedience".

So the question arises who is the "them' in the first clause of Romans 11:32?

This is revealed in the previous verses. The them are those of Israel who are mentioned in verse 31 as now not believing. That being so, then the "them" in the second clause, "that he might have mercy on them all" is also Israel according to the context, grammar and syntax. Since mercy has already been bestowed upon us, the Gentiles due to their unbelief as stated in verse 30.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy on them all.


And all this is being stated with what had already been established in the Letter. In particular this verse,
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

And this one.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 

[Johan2222]

As for isaiah 45, you cant have it both ways. And if as one person here says free will is deception, then he didnt kill himself lol.

As for isaiah 45, you cant have it both ways. And if as one person here says free will is deception, then he didnt kill himself lol.

The fact that you can assume that God creating evil negates our free will to walk in righteousness is only a measure of your inability to comprehend what even children understand.

God created light, but we don’t all walk in the light do we?

Assuming that God creating evil is a negation of our free will to abstain from evil is perhaps one of the most ridiculous notions I have ever heard.

God created pigs blood, but are you obliged to drink it?

If you wish to reason in the scriptures, please at least try to do so in a measure of soundness befitting someone who understands elementary logic.

James 3.1 is definitely a verse I would recommend you read and try to understand if you can.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many will say to me in that day,[judgement day] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

When Jesus says "never" He does not mean some day by and by.

When Jesus said ALL he did not mean some.