• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • Christian Forums is looking to bring on new moderators to the CF Staff Team! If you have been an active member of CF for at least three months with 200 posts during that time, you're eligible to apply! This is a great way to give back to CF and keep the forums running smoothly! If you're interested, you can submit your application here!

Did God forget Luke 14:28-32?

Status
Not open for further replies.

johansen

Well-Known Member
Sep 13, 2023
432
108
36
silverdale
✟41,720.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
When you lean unto your own understanding the light in you is darkness.

Isaiah 45:7 KJV
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Former friend of mine loved that verse.

One day he complained and got angry at God, yelled at him for a good bit blaming God for orchestrated the evil in his ex wife that successfully alienated his daughter from him, and turned her into a pagan, etc, etc.

He ended up confessing that my perspective was correct, and God treated him very harshly for several years as a result. About a year later he killed himself.


God had nothing to do with it.
 
Upvote 0

Jeff Saunders

Well-Known Member
May 1, 2022
1,035
312
64
Tennessee
✟50,583.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
God gave us eyes, ears and minds and nowhere do I see God telling me "Close your eyes, ears and mind and trust anything some anonymous person tells you online." The usual out-of-context proof text.
Heb_11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.​
This vs. does NOT say "place our trust in what is not seen!

Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything by quoting selective scripture out-of-context. The word is "perish" not "Parish" and I'm supposed to close my mind and eyes believe anything you say?
2 Peter 2:4-5​
(4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
(5) And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; [where is the scripture where they are saved?]​
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: [NOT salvation]


I gave you the example from the Old Testament you ignored it. Where is the scripture where those footstools are saved? I have addressed the vss. you posted now you address mine.
Jeremiah 13:10​
(10) This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.​
Jeremiah 13:13-14​
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.​
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Matthew 7:21-23​
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​
When Jesus says never He does not mean some day by an by.
EOB Matthew 25:45-46​
(45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.​
(46) And these [ones the left] shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​
The EOB is the Eastern Greek Orthodox NT. Their language has been Greek since Jesus established the church.
With your presumptions no matter what I say you won’t even consider so we will have to agree to disagree.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
29,077
6,123
EST
✟1,105,178.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
With your presumptions no matter what I say you won’t even consider so we will have to agree to disagree.
There is NOT one single presumption in my previous post nor any other. I do recall quoting quite a few scripture which OBTW you have not addressed. The one vs. you alluded to was out of context. Just sayin'. Link to my previous post if you care to address the several vss. of scripture I quoted. Did God forget Luke 14:28-32?
I do not want to post them again and perhaps run afoul of forum rules.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

Aaron112

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2022
5,329
1,347
TULSA
✟101,518.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
In Relationship
There is NOT one single presumption in my previous post nor any other. I do recall quoting quite a few scripture which OBTW you have not addressed.
The victims of false gospels are unable to comprehend light, truth, jesus, or to make sense of reality. The veil can only be removed from the mind by God / Jesus, not by us or any amount of truth in posts, in Scripture, and so on. Oh, truth COULD set them free from condemnation but ONLY(it seems) if they seek the truth and keep seeking it).

As long as someone carries with them a false gospel everywhere, we are actually told not to eat with them, not to welcome them, and not to carry on a conversation (like ongoing threads) with them LEST we (wittingly or unwittingly) take part in the same final judgment from God they get nailed with.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Der Alte
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
29,077
6,123
EST
✟1,105,178.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The victims of false gospels are unable to comprehend light, truth, jesus, or to make sense of reality. The veil can only be removed from the mind by God / Jesus, not by us or any amount of truth in posts, in Scripture, and so on. Oh, truth COULD set them free from condemnation but ONLY(it seems) if they seek the truth and keep seeking it).
As long as someone carries with them a false gospel everywhere, we are actually told not to eat with them, not to welcome them, and not to carry on a conversation (like ongoing threads) with them LEST we (wittingly or unwittingly) take part in the same final judgment from God they get nailed with.
I have been active at this forum for at least 23 years but I think a few more, memory isn't as sharp as it once was. Several years ago I was a moderator and one night, for me I was in Korea, a few people from a large unscriptural denomination, which began in the U.S., invaded the forum posting all sorts of material strictly prohibited at CF. I and another mod spent several hours trying to clean up the forum. As soon as we would ban one, they would reregister with a different name. Finally, they gave up, only one decided to stay and comply with the rules. That person became a Christian, rejected their former denomination and was a mod for some years. That person contacted me and told me that they had saved every post I made because I backed up everything, I said with scripture. That is what I strive to do. In this thread one of my opposers posted something from a self-taught amateur trying to rebut one of my posts.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aaron112
Upvote 0

Jeff Saunders

Well-Known Member
May 1, 2022
1,035
312
64
Tennessee
✟50,583.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The victims of false gospels are unable to comprehend light, truth, jesus, or to make sense of reality. The veil can only be removed from the mind by God / Jesus, not by us or any amount of truth in posts, in Scripture, and so on. Oh, truth COULD set them free from condemnation but ONLY(it seems) if they seek the truth and keep seeking it).

As long as someone carries with them a false gospel everywhere, we are actually told not to eat with them, not to welcome them, and not to carry on a conversation (like ongoing threads) with them LEST we (wittingly or unwittingly) take part in the same final judgment from God they get nailed with.
You really need to look in the mirror and read that to yourself. We all have error in our beliefs I do and so do you, our only “job” is to try to understand the infinite concepts in scripture and get as close to what God is calling us to as we can. If scripture was as clear as you think it is there would be very little disagreement but I have been in Christian Ministry for over 50 years and have seen a lot I have had the privilege of serving in other cultures and believe me there are many views of what God wants and no one has it down 100% . The road I am on now is the best way to explain the whole of scripture and what God has done is doing and will do that I have ever seen. Do I understand everything no but I now have a lot less questions now that I don’t understand.
 
Upvote 0

Aaron112

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2022
5,329
1,347
TULSA
✟101,518.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
In Relationship
As soon as we would ban one, they would reregister with a different name.
On practically all the forums available to read, this and much worse happens ongoing, daily.
The unfaithful outnumber the faithful way more than anyone imagines, and they have 'gangs' / clubs, or whatever on purpose to continually descend on a forum (or come up out of a cave somewhere to a forum), to distract, kill, steal and destroy daily. They even plan at night, and weeks ahead of time, to do woe, to do damage, to obliterate a persons chance at seeing the truth , when they can; and they are defended/protected by practices and habits and actions of the ones directing the forums. Like , what was it ? hydra, cut one head off, and 3 come in it's place? Only the wrong doers have hundreds if not thousands ready to come in as they are all encouraged to, patting themselves on the back and being encouraged by their false teachers/ leaders/ who enjoy disrupting any possible source of truth. Thus newcomers often are befuddled if not directly led astray.... and those who know enough don't even bother to stick around....
 
Upvote 0

HIM

Friend
Site Supporter
Mar 9, 2018
4,851
2,015
59
Alabama
Visit site
✟519,576.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Indeed you are wrong … I thought the same thing “what’s your point?” My instinct tells me the intent was to inform Jeff he is wrong, has no place questioning God, lacks wisdom and is spiritually blind. If my instinct is right, to me, it comes across a bit condescending. So does your “Why don’t you? comment …
It is a rebuke. The verses are clear.
“In my opinion“ you made a rather arrogant comment when you humbly thought you were speaking on behalf of the community. You know, the “I may be wrong“ but I don’t think so comment?
The post said some, not the entire community.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Johan2222

Active Member
Jan 25, 2025
223
62
66
Taunton
✟6,659.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Former friend of mine loved that verse.

One day he complained and got angry at God, yelled at him for a good bit blaming God for orchestrated the evil in his ex wife that successfully alienated his daughter from him, and turned her into a pagan, etc, etc.

He ended up confessing that my perspective was correct, and God treated him very harshly for several years as a result. About a year later he killed himself.


God had nothing to do with it.
Sounds like a very miserable accusatory ungrateful judgmental wretch to be able to judge God for the evil in his own life.

What a truly unstable soul he must have been.

Perhaps he should have looked in the mirror rather than judging his wife and blaspheming God.

Clearly, he didn’t know the meaning of forgiveness or peace that passes understanding but that is hardly surprising considering his utter lack of discernment. I can’t say I am surprised that he ended up confessing your perspective was right, seeing a leopard does not change its spots and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

There are many heretics out there that do not abide in the word or believe that it is the truth and what a shame he was one of them.

He was a friend of yours you say?

2 Corinthians 6:14 KJV
. . . for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Can’t say that comes as a great surprise to me.
 
Upvote 0

HIM

Friend
Site Supporter
Mar 9, 2018
4,851
2,015
59
Alabama
Visit site
✟519,576.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
When you say that not all are saved you are looking as the world sees things and not as God sees.
When you answered the post to which this response is too, did you answer as the world would answer or did you answer it within the context of the passages shared addressing the points within the passages?

God sees the whole picture from beginning to end as one, we see only there now not the end. All are not saved in this age but this is not the only age there are other ages to come , most will come to Jesus in a later age few find life now most are still in death. We need to see things from Gods perspective not man’s.

Those are Your words, which do not address the post you responded too.
Rom 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on ALL.
Romans is a big letter. This verse you isolated from the rest of the chapter and letter does not address the passages shared to you or the context to which they are found. And it is being stated in the subjunctive mood. It’s that not-quite-concrete wording one would use when they're discussing things they want to happen, hope will happen or anticipate will happen. NOT THAT IT WILL HAPPEN. Hence the word might in the translation you used.

In regard to that translation. They missed the mark a bit. But most translations do. The issue is there is a Them also in the clause, "He might have mercy on THEM all." So to be correct the verse needs to be translated as Anderson's translation, The Bible in Basic English by Cambridge Press, Lexham English Bible did, posted here respectively.

Rom 11:32 For God has delivered them all over to unbelief, that he may have mercy on them all.

Rom 11:32 For God has let them all go against his orders, so that he might have mercy on them all.

Rom 11:32 For God confined them all in disobedience, in order that he could have mercy on them all.

Here is the Greek.

Rom 11:32 συνέκλεισεν Shut Up Together γὰρ For ὁ θεὸς God τοὺς them πάντας All εἰς In ἀπείθειαν Disobedience, ἵνα That τοὺς those (them) πάντας All ἐλεήσῃ He Might Show Mercy To.

τοὺς is the plural form of τοῦ. Here is the definition by Strong.

G5120 τοῦ tou (tou') n.
of this person.
[(properly) the genitive case of G3588, sometimes used for G5127]
KJV: his
Root(s): G3588, G5127
[?]

It being in the plural form is why the translation you used, and a lot of other translations translate it as them in the first clause, "For God has committed them all to disobedience".

So the question arises who is the "them' in the first clause of Romans 11:32?

This is revealed in the previous verses. The them are those of Israel who are mentioned in verse 31 as now not believing. That being so, then the "them" in the second clause, "that he might have mercy on them all" is also Israel according to the context, grammar and syntax. Since mercy has already been bestowed upon us, the Gentiles due to their unbelief as stated in verse 30.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy on them all.


And all this is being stated with what had already been established in the Letter. In particular this verse,
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

And this one.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


God has all the time he needs to find his lost sheep and he won’t stop until every last one is found.
We have one shot my friend, and it is in this life we are now living.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

1Tim 5:24 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.
1Tim 5:25 Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

2Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1Pet 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

2Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Pet 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pet 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;


Heb 10:26 For if we are sinning wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Johan2222
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,844
1,793
✟208,509.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I have seen people on YouTube talk about how they reject a god who will ask his people to love their enemies and he he torches his forever , and they can’t live a god who would do that.
Here is an understanding of the reality we see, consider...

"Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled, 34 And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see. 35 Jesus wept. 36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him! 37 And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died? 38Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it." (John 11:32-38)

"This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope. 22 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. 23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness." ( Lamentations 3:21-23)


If God was not a merciful, loving God we all would be destroyed long ago. It is only Gods mercy to keep us alive and give all opportunity to believe. Yes, all, the true Light lighteth every man that cometh into the world John 1:9, and this is given only because of Gods mercy and love. None deserve anything but judgement. The fact that God shows mercy should cause all to wonder and tremble. All should have been torched long ago, but God is merciful and love and yet holy love. God cannot embrace evil.

Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?” (Habakkak 1:13)

"But I say unto you,
Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matthew 5:45, 46)


Notice that our enemies are still our enemies. But the love shown is towards them with the hope of them repenting and believing. God is like this. His love is towards men but not in or upon all until they are saved.
 
Upvote 0

Johan2222

Active Member
Jan 25, 2025
223
62
66
Taunton
✟6,659.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
When you answered the post to which this response is too, did you answer as the world would answer or did you answer it within the context of the passages shared addressing the points within the passages?



Those are Your words, which do not address the post you responded too.

Romans is a big letter. This verse you isolated from the rest of the chapter and letter does not address the passages shared to you or the context to which they are found. And it is being stated in the subjunctive mood. It’s that not-quite-concrete wording one would use when they're discussing things they want to happen, hope will happen or anticipate will happen. NOT THAT IT WILL HAPPEN. Hence the word might in the translation you used.

In regard to that translation. They missed the mark a bit. But most translations do. The issue is there is a Them also in the clause, "He might have mercy on THEM all." So to be correct the verse needs to be translated as Anderson's translation, The Bible in Basic English by Cambridge Press, Lexham English Bible did, posted here respectively.

Rom 11:32 For God has delivered them all over to unbelief, that he may have mercy on them all.

Rom 11:32 For God has let them all go against his orders, so that he might have mercy on them all.

Rom 11:32 For God confined them all in disobedience, in order that he could have mercy on them all.

Here is the Greek.

Rom 11:32 συνέκλεισεν Shut Up Together γὰρ For ὁ θεὸς God τοὺς them πάντας All εἰς In ἀπείθειαν Disobedience, ἵνα That τοὺς those (them) πάντας All ἐλεήσῃ He Might Show Mercy To.

τοὺς is the plural form of τοῦ. Here is the definition by Strong.

G5120 τοῦ tou (tou') n.
of this person.
[(properly) the genitive case of G3588, sometimes used for G5127]
KJV: his
Root(s): G3588, G5127
[?]

It being in the plural form is why the translation you used, and a lot of other translations translate it as them in the first clause, "For God has committed them all to disobedience".

So the question arises who is the "them' in the first clause of Romans 11:32?

This is revealed in the previous verses. The them are those of Israel who are mentioned in verse 31 as now not believing. That being so, then the "them" in the second clause, "that he might have mercy on them all" is also Israel according to the context, grammar and syntax. Since mercy has already been bestowed upon us, the Gentiles due to their unbelief as stated in verse 30.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy on them all.


And all this is being stated with what had already been established in the Letter. In particular this verse,
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

And this one.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.



We have one shot my friend, and it is in this life we are now living.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

1Tim 5:24 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.
1Tim 5:25 Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

2Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1Pet 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

2Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Pet 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pet 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;


Heb 10:26 For if we are sinning wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
I commend you for your perseverance and dedication in trying to open eyes that appear so intent on remaining closed and I have to confess, having seen the avoidance and misquoting of scripture, I resorted rather quickly to Titus 3.10, Rev. 22.11 and Proverbs 26.4,5, among others to direct my response so thanks for your patience and for bringing light to others who may be following the thread and who may be more willing to open their eyes.
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: HIM
Upvote 0

BelieveItOarKnot

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...
Jun 2, 2024
923
98
70
Florida
✟37,846.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
How do you define free will?

A fairy tale and false doctrine that can only be supported by shoving out God's Will working in the person AND shoving out the demonic evil will that also operates in all of us.

In short, freewill is a Godless lie
I reject the Calvinist view that God causes everything and man is a merely a puppet.
God can not be logically extracted from anything that transpires in His creation
If we have no free will then why does God ask us to choose him?
He elects, He draws, it is the Holy Spirit that confesses belief in Jesus and likewise speaks truthfully

And conversely the same people can also be deceived by devils and speak lies

We therefore measure by scripture to assess ourselves, and other voices, of which there are many, few truthful
What did Jesus mean by deny yourself and pick up your cross and follow him , if we have no free will to deny ourselves?

Who said we wrestle against ourselves? We DO all do battle internally with our adversary. Anyone free who thinks it's just themselves they are denying hasn't even entered the battlefield
Our free will is all over scripture

uh no it isn't

What is presented is 3 wills, God, man and devils. None of which can be taken out of the picture
we are not robots.
The devil and his messengers ARE robots who automatically resist God every time, without fail. And this happens in mankind universally with one sole exception, Jesus
But I believe that God is greater than our free will,
Then you have positioned our supposed freewill as less free and over rideable by God, which will is then free but not as free

Not as free freewill isn't freewill
 
Upvote 0

Jeff Saunders

Well-Known Member
May 1, 2022
1,035
312
64
Tennessee
✟50,583.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Here is an understanding of the reality we see, consider...

"Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled, 34 And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see. 35 Jesus wept. 36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him! 37 And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died? 38Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it." (John 11:32-38)

"This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope. 22 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. 23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness." ( Lamentations 3:21-23)


If God was not a merciful, loving God we all would be destroyed long ago. It is only Gods mercy to keep us alive and give all opportunity to believe. Yes, all, the true Light lighteth every man that cometh into the world John 1:9, and this is given only because of Gods mercy and love. None deserve anything but judgement. The fact that God shows mercy should cause all to wonder and tremble. All should have been torched long ago, but God is merciful and love and yet holy love. God cannot embrace evil.

Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?” (Habakkak 1:13)

"But I say unto you,
Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matthew 5:45, 46)


Notice that our enemies are still our enemies. But the love shown is towards them with the hope of them repenting and believing. God is like this. His love is towards men but not in or upon all until they are saved.
Thank you for your response, I grew up in the Augustine model of religion myself for some 50 years and I understand why you believe what you believe. I started to read what the early church fathers wrote who were the disciples of the original disciples or a few generations past and many of them taught what they learned directly from the apostles and their teachings. They see God as a loving Father just as Jesus taught us . They taught that God loves his creation and doesn’t hate anyone it’s sin he hates not his creation. Why would a God who knows the beginning from the end create a creation that he hates and has to torture for all eternity? He would not. He hates sin not sinners. So the idea that we all deserve to die because we offended God is wrong thinking. For God lived the world so much he would become sin and die and rise again conquering sin and death. When scripture says John 4:42 “ Jesus is the Christ, the savior of the world “ that was a declaration of who Jesus was and what he would do . Not just a possibility that would save a few. This is what God and Jesus did 2Cor 5:19 “ in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting people’s trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation “ this is the ABBA FATHER that the Jews missed and who Jesus was showing us . He said he was the exact representation of God. And what did he show us live ,mercy, compassion , even the very people who were nailing him to the cross, what did he say ? Father burn them forever for they know what they are doing? No he cried Father forgive them for they now not what they do. That is the Father’s heart and this is the Father who I follow the Father who will do whatever it takes even dying, or how modern people might say “I will take a bullet for my kids”, to save his creation.This is the God that I serve , a loving Father who would do anything to save his creation and who can oppose God.
 
Upvote 0

Jeff Saunders

Well-Known Member
May 1, 2022
1,035
312
64
Tennessee
✟50,583.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
A fairy tale and false doctrine that can only be supported by shoving out God's Will working in the person AND shoving out the demonic evil will that also operates in all of us.

In short, freewill is a Godless lie

God can not be logically extracted from anything that transpires in His creation

He elects, He draws, it is the Holy Spirit that confesses belief in Jesus and likewise speaks truthfully

And conversely the same people can also be deceived by devils and speak lies

We therefore measure by scripture to assess ourselves, and other voices, of which there are many, few truthful


Who said we wrestle against ourselves? We DO all do battle internally with our adversary. Anyone free who thinks it's just themselves they are denying hasn't even entered the battlefield


uh no it isn't

What is presented is 3 wills, God, man and devils. None of which can be taken out of the picture

The devil and his messengers ARE robots who automatically resist God every time, without fail. And this happens in mankind universally with one sole exception, Jesus

Then you have positioned our supposed freewill as less free and over rideable by God, which will is then free but not as free

Not as free freewill isn't freewill
God is not like man he doesn’t do things or ask us to do things that are deceptive. Scripture clearly says choose you this day ,if man has no free will how can he choose or is God a tease? Jesus looking over Jerusalem says I would like to gather you like a bird gathering her chicks but you would not come. If no free will that makes Jesus deceptive, why would he say they rejected him if they could not reject him? I like word pictures and this is a good one to show you what I believe is true; if you or I were to play chess against the grand master chess champion we would not win one game. We can move any piece at any time we would have free will over every move we make but the chess master would win every time. Did he take away our free will to win ? No but he knows the game so well that he can make you do things so that he will win every time. God is similar in that he made everything and we were created to worship him and he will get all he wants and every person will as scripture says bend the knee and confess that Jesus is Lord, he doesn’t need to violate our free will but he uses it to get what he wants. Because he told us what he wants. It’s God will none should parish. Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for God will not be robbed.
 
Upvote 0

Jeff Saunders

Well-Known Member
May 1, 2022
1,035
312
64
Tennessee
✟50,583.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
A fairy tale and false doctrine that can only be supported by shoving out God's Will working in the person AND shoving out the demonic evil will that also operates in all of us.

In short, freewill is a Godless lie

God can not be logically extracted from anything that transpires in His creation

He elects, He draws, it is the Holy Spirit that confesses belief in Jesus and likewise speaks truthfully

And conversely the same people can also be deceived by devils and speak lies

We therefore measure by scripture to assess ourselves, and other voices, of which there are many, few truthful


Who said we wrestle against ourselves? We DO all do battle internally with our adversary. Anyone free who thinks it's just themselves they are denying hasn't even entered the battlefield


uh no it isn't

What is presented is 3 wills, God, man and devils. None of which can be taken out of the picture

The devil and his messengers ARE robots who automatically resist God every time, without fail. And this happens in mankind universally with one sole exception, Jesus

Then you have positioned our supposed freewill as less free and over rideable by God, which will is then free but not as free

Not as free freewill isn't freewill
If God can’t logically be extracted from anything that transpires from his creation. Then why does scripture say that men are without excuse because through creation points to Him.
 
Upvote 0

johansen

Well-Known Member
Sep 13, 2023
432
108
36
silverdale
✟41,720.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Sounds like a very miserable accusatory ungrateful judgmental wretch to be able to judge God for the evil in his own life.
When you serve a God that creates evil... Its natural to end up in that state.

I dont judge him for his interpretation of isaiah 45 7 but he took it too far, just as several on this forum do.

God can take credit for allowing evil to run its course but as God says elsewhere in several places "it did not enter my imagination"

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
29,077
6,123
EST
✟1,105,178.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
A fairy tale and false doctrine that can only be supported by shoving out God's Will working in the person AND shoving out the demonic evil will that also operates in all of us.
In short, freewill is a Godless lie
God can not be logically extracted from anything that transpires in His creation
He elects, He draws, it is the Holy Spirit that confesses belief in Jesus and likewise speaks truthfully
And conversely the same people can also be deceived by devils and speak lies
We therefore measure by scripture to assess ourselves, and other voices, of which there are many, few truthful

Who said we wrestle against ourselves? We DO all do battle internally with our adversary. Anyone free who thinks it's just themselves they are denying hasn't even entered the battlefield

uh no it isn't

What is presented is 3 wills, God, man and devils. None of which can be taken out of the picture

The devil and his messengers ARE robots who automatically resist God every time, without fail. And this happens in mankind universally with one sole exception, Jesus

Then you have positioned our supposed freewill as less free and over rideable by God, which will is then free but not as free

Not as free freewill isn't freewill
Jeremiah 13:10-14​
(10) This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, [their wills] which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them,[their wills] shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.​
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah,[God's will] saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.[their wills]
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.​
(14) And "I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them."[God's will.]
God does not say He will save everyone no matter what.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Johan2222

Active Member
Jan 25, 2025
223
62
66
Taunton
✟6,659.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I dont judge him for his interpretation of isaiah 45 7 but he took it too far, just as several on this forum do.
Sure you don’t judge that blasphemous God cursing friend of yours who killed himself for his interpretation of Isaiah 45.7 you judge him as having taken it too far and according to you oh judge, so do many on this forum.

Interesting that isn’t it? You confess you were in fellowship with a man who was so apostate and deluded that he cursed God and then killed himself and yet you are wise enough to decide that the word is wrong because Isaiah 45.7 is actually pretty clear even to babes.

Isaiah 45:7 KJV
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

But according to you, God never created evil.

If you accuse God of being a liar, I am not surprised that you have friends who blaspheme God and curse him before killing themselves.
 
Upvote 0

BelieveItOarKnot

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...
Jun 2, 2024
923
98
70
Florida
✟37,846.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
God does not say He will save everyone no matter what.
We've discussed this at length. Your positional view of people is lacking, therefore your positional sights are skewered and off kilter
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.