Did Abraham observe the Sabbath day?

[HIM]

Ask the Lord when you'll be allowed you to answer the question - On what grounds is the 4th law exempted from the God inspired
scripture that says -

For if a law had been given which was able to give life, righteousness would have indeed been of law. (Gal. 3:21b)

Ask the Lord to allow you to explain why the above doesn't apply to the 4th law.

So we have established that there is no real argument other than opinion the Sabbath should be considered in relation to the days mentioned in Romans 14. With that fact being understood we can move on to Galatians.

No one said any one was righteous by doing the law.

What is in our hearts according to Hebrews 8:10?

And how does that relate to Gal. 2:16-20?

And How do those verses relate to Romans 10:6-8?

 

[oikonomia]

Romans 14 is the topic for you and I presently. Stay focused, You have yet to show
That THE SABBATH IS MENTIONED. Remember We are not to add what is not said.

Now, I read this comment as an evasive move not to deal with a critical point about any of the laws.

My case for the Sabbath being included in Paul's admonition - "One judges one day above another; another judges every day alike. Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind."(Rom.14:5) is rested.

My birthday is not mentioned specifically, nor a (supposed) birthday of Jesus, or particular day of the week or month the Torah may
mention like the ordained Sabbath on the 7th weekday, or even "the Lord's day" which I believe to be the day Christ resurrected. Or any other specfied sacred or non-sacred day is mentioned.

My case on the Sabbath being included has been made.
Readers of our discussion may all make up their own minds.

And you have not addressed The fact the context is in respect to arguing over opinions not God's word.

You may know the saying "Evidence is not persuasion."
I do not promise I can persuade you. I offer you reasonable evidence.

And you are trying to make the points on which you stubbornly don't agree, "the topic" upon which I must "stay focused."
This case is rested also.

Aside from basic tenets of "gospel of God" (Rom. 1:1) which the apostle teaches in chapters preceding his call
to oneness in chapter 14, any cultural, religious, non-essential, secular or sacred practices are the matters he means.
In spite of them the practical churching believers should receive one another as Christ has received them.

Paul has laid out the critical truths of "the gospel of God" (Rom. 1:1) which is also "the gospel of His Son" (v.9).

The divine and human nature of Jesus Christ including His resurrection - 1:3.4
Condemnation - 1:18 - 3:20
Justification - 3:21-5:11
Sanctification - 5:12-8:13
Glorification - 8:18 - 39
Selection - 9:1 - 11:36
Transformation - 12:1 - 15:3

Most these major themes have subsections.
I would say in the 14th chapter as a subset of his teaching on transformation for the corporate Body life in the church
Receiving is related. In the subsection on Receiving 14:1 - 15:13 he gives attention to the problem of non-essential
practices (Torah related or otherwise) and opinions (Torah related or otherwise) not damaging the unity of the practical church life.

 

[oikonomia]

Opinions, thoughts and imaginations are not the same as what God has stated as His will.

You made the point before. Opinions, thoughts and imaginations CAN also be related and involve the background in
their previous piety, religious concepts, devotional practices. etc.

Early Christians then as well as now have "opinions, thoughts, and imaginations" quite based on the text of Scripture.
Look no further than this Christian Forum. There are plenty of "opinions, thoughts and imaginations" which people feel
are biblical matters.

They had only the Old Testament as written Scripture then.
We today have both the Old and the New Testaments to furnish various "opinions, thoughts and imaginations."

You can continue the charge - "All you have done is write your opinion . . .".
Actually I have written about the Apostle Paul's thoughts on the generality and tolerance of
accomodating believers who have come together with usually unavoidable differing personal practices.

You hate that the 7th day Sabbath could be one of those potentially divisive practices.
So you marshall up all your own "opinions, thoughts and imaginations" to argue that the 7th day Sabbath could have nothing
to do with his exhortation.

One judges one day above another; another judges every day alike. Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind.

He who regards that day, regards it to the Lord; and he who eats, eats to the Lord,
for he gives thanks to God; and he who does not eat,
does not eat to the Lord, and he gives thanks to God.
For none of us lives to himself, and none dies to himself; (14:5-7)

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT


This thread had a small clean up. Keep it chill, folks. Don't flame each other. ​

 

[Yekcidmij]

The case can be made that he did. The sabbath was given to Israel at Sinai as a SIGN. The sabbath was not invented at Sinai. Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws” (Genesis 26:5). Yoma 28b: the Gemara cites that Rav said: Abraham our Patriarch fulfilled the entire Torah before it was given, as it is stated: “Because Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My mitzvot, My statutes and My Torahs” (Genesis 26:5). Rav Shimi bar Ḥiyya said to Rav: And say that the verse means that he fulfilled only the seven Noahide mitzvot and not the entire Torah. The Gemara asks: But isn’t there also circumcision that Abraham clearly observed, which is not one of the Noahide laws? Apparently, Abraham fulfilled more than just those seven. The Gemara asks: And say that he fulfilled only the seven mitzvot and circumcision. Rav said to him: If so, why do I need the continuation of the verse, that Abraham kept: My mitzvot and my Torah? That is a clear indication that he fulfilled mitzvot beyond the seven Noahide mitzvot, and apparently fulfilled the entire Torah.

It's also worth noting that the Talmud also says Abraham obeyed both written and oral Torah, and they got this from Gen 26:5 (m. Qidd. 4:14, Gen. Rab. 49:2, 64:4, and 95, Lev. Rab. 2:10), presumably because of the presence of the plural "torahs" rather than singular "torah" and/or maybe because of the repetition of "mitzvot" and "torot." b. Yoma 28b, quoted above, seems to also suggest that both oral and written Torah are in view. So, if one is quoting the Talmud as a source for demonstrating that Abraham observed Torah, it must include what the Talmud is actually saying - Abraham observed the written AND oral Torah. This isn't usually what Christians have in mind if they quote the Talmud to show that Abraham observed the Torah.

A different understanding of Gen 26:5 could be that Abraham just followed God's instructions, which the text clearly shows in Genesis, and is not referring to a specific body of codified law that would become Genesis through Deuteronomy.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

A different understanding of Gen 26:5 could be that Abraham just followed God's instructions, which the text clearly shows in Genesis, and is not referring to a specific body of codified law that would become Genesis through Deuteronomy.

That is still "Torah" (Abraham just followed God's instructions) But yes, I agree with the rest...

 

[Sheila Davis]

The Law was understood by all because humanity was made in God's image and likeness. They did not have to be commanded they understood because it was part of them being made in His image and likeness.

Then nobody should have sinned and disobeyed God at any point - yet they did.

In references to the Sabbath as being set aside for a day of worship was not mentioned until Exodus chapter 16.
In Genesis 2:2-3 it said God bless the seventh day. In between then and Exodus 16 there is no mention of the 7th Day or the keeping of it.

But as with many things in Scripture, where there is no definite analysis men assume.

God gave Moses the law, because it wasn't understood by all humanity and still isn't.

Bible Gateway passage: John 1:17-19 - Good News Translation

God gave the Law through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is the same as God and is at the Father's side, he has made him known. John the Baptist's Message - The Jewish authorities in Jerusalem sent some priests and Levites to John...

www.biblegateway.com

When God put the law in the heart of man would be much later
Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 31:33 - King James Version

Thank you for sharing your belief!

 

[HIM]

Then nobody should have sinned and disobeyed God at any point - yet they did.

In references to the Sabbath as being set aside for a day of worship was not mentioned until Exodus chapter 16.
In Genesis 2:2-3 it said God bless the seventh day. In between then and Exodus 16 there is no mention of the 7th Day or the keeping of it.

But as with many things in Scripture, where there is no definite analysis men assume.

The Law was understood by all because humanity was made in God's image and likeness. They did not have to be commanded they understood because it was part of them being made in His image and likeness. No assumption, that is what scripture says. The Written Law did not come until Moses. But the things of God, righteous living and holiness was and is part of who we are, being made in His image likeness to walk.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

When God put the law in the heart of man would be much later
Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 31:33 - King James Version

The following is in the present tense. And there is a good reason why it was paraphrased again in Romans 10:6-8

Deut 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Thank you for sharing your belief!

If we avoid condescending remarks our conversation will go much better. Thank you.

 

[HIM]

It's also worth noting that the Talmud also says Abraham obeyed both written and oral Torah, and they got this from Gen 26:5 (m. Qidd. 4:14, Gen. Rab. 49:2, 64:4, and 95, Lev. Rab. 2:10), presumably because of the presence of the plural "torahs" rather than singular "torah" and/or maybe because of the repetition of "mitzvot" and "torot." b. Yoma 28b, quoted above, seems to also suggest that both oral and written Torah are in view. So, if one is quoting the Talmud as a source for demonstrating that Abraham observed Torah, it must include what the Talmud is actually saying - Abraham observed the written AND oral Torah. This isn't usually what Christians have in mind if they quote the Talmud to show that Abraham observed the Torah.

A different understanding of Gen 26:5 could be that Abraham just followed God's instructions, which the text clearly shows in Genesis, and is not referring to a specific body of codified law that would become Genesis through Deuteronomy.

Then it seems to me that the Talmud is nothing more than a commentary.

 

[HIM]

You made the point before. Opinions, thoughts and imaginations CAN also be related and involve the background in
their previous piety, religious concepts, devotional practices. etc.

Early Christians then as well as now have "opinions, thoughts, and imaginations" quite based on the text of Scripture.
Look no further than this Christian Forum. There are plenty of "opinions, thoughts and imaginations" which people feel
are biblical matters.

They had only the Old Testament as written Scripture then.
We today have both the Old and the New Testaments to furnish various "opinions, thoughts and imaginations."

You can continue the charge - "All you have done is write your opinion . . .".
Actually I have written about the Apostle Paul's thoughts on the generality and tolerance of
accomodating believers who have come together with usually unavoidable differing personal practices.

You hate that the 7th day Sabbath could be one of those potentially divisive practices.
So you marshall up all your own "opinions, thoughts and imaginations" to argue that the 7th day Sabbath could have nothing
to do with his exhortation.

One judges one day above another; another judges every day alike. Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind.

He who regards that day, regards it to the Lord; and he who eats, eats to the Lord,
for he gives thanks to God; and he who does not eat,
does not eat to the Lord, and he gives thanks to God.
For none of us lives to himself, and none dies to himself; (14:5-7)

Nothing substantial in your posts that shows what was shown to you was error.
THE SABBATH IS NOT MENTIONED IN ROMANS 14. We are not to add what is not said.

The context is in respect to arguing over opinions not God's word. Opinions, thoughts and imaginations are not the same as what God has stated as His will. You posted nothing but your opinion and as of yet have not proven anything. Nothing objective dealing with the passage in question. Our opinion is not God's Word and what He has established.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Then it seems to me that the Talmud is nothing more than a commentary.

Well, sure, it is commentary of a sort. The Rabbi's have hermetical rules they're employing in order to come up with their opinions like other commentators do. It can be useful for understanding some things in the bible, especially the New Testament, as long as it's done understanding the limitations of using the Talmud for either Christian or historical purposes. Just because something is in the Talmud doesn't mean Jews in the 1st century necessarily believed it, and just because somethign isn't in the Talmud or is opposed in the Talmud doesn't mean that was necessarily the case in the 1st century. The Talmud is compiled much later than the 1st century and includes Rabbinical thought that developed over the centuries following the destruction of the Temple. And just because something is in the Talmud does not mean the claim is "historical" in nature.

Most scholars will try to use some method to figure out whether or not things found in the Talmud would have been believed in Jesus' day (or prior). So they will do things like see if something in "the" Talmud was in BOTH Talmuds (there are 2 Talmuds - Babylonian and Jerusalem). They will see if it's in the earlier parts of the Talmud - ie, the Mishnah. They'll see if it's in both the Mishnah and another early composition of Jewish Rabbinical opinions - the Tosefta. Or they may look at the reasoning and logic used to arrive at opinions in the Talmud and compare to the reasons and logic used to arrive at things in the New Testaement.

It's useful if used correctly and wisely.

 

[oikonomia]

Then nobody should have sinned and disobeyed God at any point - yet they did.

In references to the Sabbath as being set aside for a day of worship was not mentioned until Exodus chapter 16.
In Genesis 2:2-3 it said God bless the seventh day. In between then and Exodus 16 there is no mention of the 7th Day or the keeping of it.

But as with many things in Scripture, where there is no definite analysis men assume.

God gave Moses the law, because it wasn't understood by all humanity and still isn't.

Bible Gateway passage: John 1:17-19 - Good News Translation

God gave the Law through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is the same as God and is at the Father's side, he has made him known. John the Baptist's Message - The Jewish authorities in Jerusalem sent some priests and Levites to John...

www.biblegateway.com

When God put the law in the heart of man would be much later
Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 31:33 - King James Version

Thank you for sharing your belief!

I believe what the Apostle Paul refers to in Romans 2:4,15 is about man of the old creation, as they came from
the creative hand of God. It is something of their natural nature.

I do not believe there is a another mention of this in Jeremiah's prophecy of God giving a new covenant. (Jer. 33:31-34) quoted
couple times in the book of Hebrews.

I am kind of surprised at the number of posters who seem to think the two passages are referring to the same matter.

 

[oikonomia]

Nothing substantial in your posts that shows what was shown to you was error.
THE SABBATH IS NOT MENTIONED IN ROMANS 14. We are not to add what is not said.

There is not much left for you and I except to argue in repetative circles.

In Romans 14 any Sabbath day is included in the general guideline -

One judges one day above another; another judges every day alike. Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind. (v.5)

 

[Aaron112]

The LORD did not command the Egyptians to keep the Sabbath Day. The Lord commanded the Israelites to keep the Sabbath because he brought them out of Egypt.

The Egyptians were not God's People - they were without Christ and without hope in the world.

I don't think so.

Yahweh the Creator observed the Shabbat, day of rest.
He Created Adam and Eve and likely talked with them about this since it is practically central throughout Scripture.

Abraham likely new more than anyone today does.
And being not just an obedient trusting man of faith in God,
Abraham is the father of faith to us who believe and are saved.

So very possible if not likely and maybe even revealed that
yes, Abraham honored Shabbat, just as Yahweh always has, and Yahshuia and all the men of God .

 

[Aaron112]

Just found reference that might or might not have significance itself >

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/261818/jewish/A-Brief-History-of-Shabbat.htm

"
"Hebron, 18th century BCE
2. Sarah’s Shabbat Lamp

(c) Michoel Muchnik​

Thirty-eight centuries ago, Abraham and Sarah embarked on a journey to bring the idea and morals of monotheism to a predominantly pagan world. Their journey took them from their native Ur Casdim to Charan (Mesopotamia), and from there to the land of Canaan, where they settled first in Hebron and later in Beersheba. They pitched their tents at the desert crossroads, and offered food, drink and lodging to all wayfarers of every tribe and creed. Wherever they went, they taught the truth of the One G‑d, creator of heaven and earth. (Genesis ch. 12; Talmud, Sotah 10a; Midrashim)

In Sarah’s tent, a special miracle proclaimed that the Divine Presence dwelled therein: the lamp she lit every Friday evening, in honor of the divine day of rest, miraculously kept burning all week, until the next Friday eve. When Sarah died (1676 BCE), the miracle of her Shabbat lamp ceased. But on the day of Sarah’s passing, Rebecca was born. And when Rebecca was brought to Sarah’s tent as the destined wife of Sarah’s son, Isaac, the miracle of the lamp returned. Once again, the light of Shabbat filled the tent of the matriarch of Israel and radiated its holiness to the entire week. (Bereishit Rabbah 60)"

 

[HIM]

There is not much left for you and I except to argue in repetative circles.

In Romans 14 any Sabbath day is included in the general guideline -

One judges one day above another; another judges every day alike. Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind. (v.5)

Sabbath isn’t mentioned and verse one states that the context is about opinions not God’s word. So yes you are right about being repetitive since that is the truth

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

There is not much left for you and I except to argue in repetative circles.

In Romans 14 any Sabbath day is included in the general guideline -

One judges one day above another; another judges every day alike. Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind. (v.5)

There is NO mention of the Sabbath. The conext is quite clear. It is regarding fasting....the context is FOOD.

 

[oikonomia]

There is NO mention of the Sabbath. The conext is quite clear. It is regarding fasting....the context is FOOD.

What you insist "there is NO mention of " is totally influenced by your obsession.
What you insist "the context is quite clear" is because of the influence of your obsession.
Your insistence that "fasting....the context is FOOD" is reasoning coming out of your obsession.

I would say all your special pleadings here are the reasonings coming out of obsession for your kind of legalism.

Ie. So as to teach Christians "At all costs we must keep our legal obligation to the 4th commandment."

 

[oikonomia]

Sabbath isn’t mentioned and verse one states that the context is about opinions not God’s word. So yes you are right about being repetitive since that is the truth

See my reply to poster Yeshua HaDerekh just above.
It would apply to your logic also.

 

[oikonomia]

So yes you are right about being repetitive since that is the truth

No, I do not intend to perpetually wrangle over the matter.
I simply respect what Paul wrote.

One judges one day above another; another judges every day alike. Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind. (v.5)

And you are a brother in Christ ( I do believe ) who judges the 7th day above other days.
Of course ground for this attitude can easily be found in Exodus and Deuteronomy.
But the church life Paul describes instructs believers to accomodate for each others' practices not touching
the afore mentioned major tenets of the Christian gospel.

Don't forget to richly enjoy Jesus Himself on your Sabbath day.