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Jipsah

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When God gave to Israel days to observe, God instructions on what to (or how to) observe on these days.
Just make sure we ignore the birth of the Messiah, Savior of the Universe, because long dead pagans who worshipped non-existent "gods" did (or didn't) do something or other on the days we've dedidated to the worship of our Lord.

You worry go ahead and worry about those old dead pagans if you like; they don't mean jack to me. Their "gods" died with them, and neither they nor their stupid customs nor their ridiculous feasts nor anything else they did or thought or believed mean anything at all, either then nor now.

25 December, and every other day on the calendar, belongs to our Lord Christ!
 
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Jipsah

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Christmas is definitely a human created celebration.
Are you sure we're even allowed to acknowledge our Lord's birth or resurrection now? Seems like your lot manages to find some "reason" or the other why we mustn't ever keep a Christian where our Lord Christ will be named. Doesn't that seem a bit more than passing strange to you? (Rhetorical question.)
Because there is no instruction from God in The Bible to celebrate the birth of Jesus.
Or His resurrection, or even His existence. Probably safest not to talk about Him at all, reckon?
 
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Jipsah

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Why do we need an instruction?
God sent angels to announce the conception to Mary and Joseph, a star to announce the birth to the Magi, and the sky was filled with many angels announcing the birth to the shepherds.
If the heavens, and heavenly beings, can shout about the Word made flesh; why can't we?
QFT Thank you and amen, sis!
 
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Jipsah

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When God gave to Israel days to observe, God instructions on what to (or how to) observe on these days.
So we just join the unbelieving Jews in completely . ignoring the coming of our Lord

Not in my house, mate.
 
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Jipsah

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God has given the church The Lords supper as a remembrance.
"Take, eat. This is My Body". A bit more than a "remembrance", innit? But we have to minimize it, don't we?
 
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Jipsah

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It was apparently an attempt to satisfy pagans, to get them into the 'church', without them needing to repent (even today this is done daily).
Yeah, and ancient Church was all about reverting to paganism to swell their membership rolls. Just like 21st century Americans, huh?

Rubbish.
 
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Jipsah

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Always remember and honor and meditate on Torah as is written.
And be sure to read a few verses from the Testament of our Lord Christ once in awhile, if only for drill.
 
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Strong in Him

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I think you know that to describe what you are (naively or innocently?) asking for is forbidden by the rules to be claimed or posted. Again, though , do a little internet searching and you can relatively easily find out, even though you cannot post it on the forum.
I don't want to find it out.

Your statement was "not wrong unless idols or idolatry is involved", post #8. My observation was, "well, I'm not involved in idolatry and I doubt that any Christian here is, either."
I was talking about being able to celebrate Christ's resurrection, even though we are not commanded, or instructed, to.

I'm not interested in the fact that other Christians worldwide MAY worship idols instead of Christ - and I certainly don't want you to name any on these forums who do this (assuming there are any.)
 
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prodromos

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Like clockwork, these threads pop up just before Christmas and Easter, where people proudly demonstrate their ignorance of history.
December 25 had no significance to pagans. They did not hold any annual celebrations on that day. It happened that one year, a pagan Emperor happened to dedicate a temple to the sun on that day, but it had no other significance than the day a bridge was first opened. No one commemorates the day something was made available to the public.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Can we be certain that Jesus Christ was born on December 25th? The Bible gives no exact date for His birth, so why celebrate on a date tied to pagan traditions?

Honestly, I'm surprised it took this long for the usual anti-Christmas nonsense to crop up.

Well, let's start with this: We don't celebrate Christ's birth on a date tied to pagan traditions.

The first recorded instance of December 25th being celebrated as Christ's birth comes from a Roman calendar in AD 354, long after it was used to celebrate Dies Natalis Solis Invicti (the “Birthday of the Unconquered Sun”).

You are correct that the first calendar record of the celebration of Christ's birth on December 25th appears on the Chronograph of 336. What you fail to mention is that this same source is also the earliest attestation to the celebration of the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti.

We don't have any earlier source.

We do, however, have Christians talking about Jesus' birth on December 25th, or at least His conception on March 25th, pre-dating the Cult of Sol Invictus by several decades.

This date is speculated to have origins in ancient Babylon (approx. 2000 BC), marking the birth of Tammuz, and is celebrated after a woman’s typical gestation period following the pagan fertility festival of Easter. By aligning Christ’s birth with this pagan festival, we risk blending the worship of God with sun worship, which the Bible condemns (Romans 1:25).

How, exactly, did the Babylonians in 2000 BC use a calendar that didn't exist until Julius Caesar?

Let’s also remember the abominable practices described in Ezekiel 8:16-18, where the people were worshipping the sun in God’s temple—an act of rebellion against God. As Ecclesiastes 1:9 reminds us, “There is nothing new under the sun”, and such practices persist even today.

Additionally, Jeremiah 10:2-5 warns against the customs of the nations, such as cutting, fastening in place and decorating trees with silver and gold—practices still reflected in today’s December 25th tradition. This mirrors an ancient pagan ritual that elevates the tree to the status of an idol.

In Deuteronomy 12:29-32, God specifically commands His people not to adopt the worship practices of other nations, emphasizing that worship must align with His word in Bible scripture, not with man-made traditions.

If you love the LORD God, flee from this pagan festival and don’t justify it for the sake of family. Jesus said, “Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me” (Matthew 10:37 ESV).

We are commanded to worship God in spirit and truth. If the world or your family opposes you, rejoice, for your reward in heaven will be great. As they persecuted the prophets, so they will persecute you. May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you, to Him be the glory, now and forever.

View attachment 358963

If you don't want to have a Merry Christmas, well that's your choice.

I intend to do what the hosts of heaven did, and declare His glorious praises.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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JSRG

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Can we be certain that Jesus Christ was born on December 25th? The Bible gives no exact date for His birth, so why celebrate on a date tied to pagan traditions?

Because it really isn't tied to pagan traditions.

Before we get into the specifics, I want to note something very important. These pagan tradition arguments always go the same way: "Pagans did this, and Christmas has that in common, so they took it from pagans." But this argument only works if:
1) the pagans actually did this (a lot of these claims are straight up made up)
2) the pagans can be shown to have done it before Christians
3) the pagans did it in a time and place where it could influence Christmas
4) the Christmas tradition in question actually came out at a time when pagan influence was a possibility. The actual point of fact is that most of what we think of as Christmas traditions are only the creation of the last few centuries, long after paganism was extinct!

So whenever someone says "look at this thing pagans did and how it's totally similar to something in Christmas" the argument means absolutely nothing if they cannot prove all of the above things. Show a primary source demonstrating pagans did this in a time and place that could have influenced Christianity, then demonstrate that the Christian tradition in question started at a point that it could have been plausibly influenced by it (e.g. before paganism went extinct), and that the pagan tradition can be shown to predate Christianity. Otherwise, the supposed parallels mean nothing.

With that in mind, let's look at what you have to offer.

The first recorded instance of December 25th being celebrated as Christ's birth comes from a Roman calendar in AD 336, long after it was used to celebrate Dies Natalis Solis Invicti (the “Birthday of the Unconquered Sun”).

The date is probably the most plausible link to paganism, but it still has some problems.

The claim that it was "long after it was used to celebrate Dies Natalis Solis Invicti" is actually a pretty big speculation. The first definite reference we have to this festival being celebrated on December 25 is the very Roman calendar you refer to (called the Chronograph of 354, due to it being from 354... though the mention of Christmas is believed to be an earlier document from 336 AD that was re-used in the Chonograph). Since it refers to both Christmas and that festival, it leaves it unclear which came first.

There are a few ambiguous references that might indicate prior celebration of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti... but they're speculative. Sure, Aurelian dedicated a temple to the sun on December 25 in the third century, but (contrary to what various people claim) there seems no evidence he did so as part of any annual holiday or that any holiday started as a result.

Similarly, while the calendar you refer to is the first definite reference we have of Christmas being December 25, it of course does not mean that was the first one. A work of Hippolytus from the third century made a reference to Jesus's birth being December 25. While some have argued this is a alter interpolation, Thomas Schmidt--who translated the work in question into English--puts forward what seems a reasonable (albeit lengthy) argument here that it was indeed something Hippolytus said.

There is also an alleged letter of Theophilus from the second century referring to it... but this letter is regarded as a much later writing. Still, I did find this article which argues that while the letter itself is of later origin, it is drawing on accurate historical information; I am not fully persuaded of this, however.

In any event, with the information we have, it is not possible to determine for sure whether Christmas on December 25 or Dies Natalis Solis Invicti on December 25 came first. Thus, while it is possible that December 25 Christmas post-dates Dies Natalis Solis Invicti being on this date, it is far from certain. It is entirely possible that they put Dies Natalis Solis Invicti on that date in imitation of the Christian festival!

But as for why Christians would choose this date, if not in imitation of this? There are several theories, but one that seems plausible is that of computation. There is some evidence that early Christians Jesus to have been conceived on or around March 25 (e.g. see this article by Schmidt). As is commonly known, pregnancies last 9 months, which would put the birth at December 25.

This date is speculated to have origins in ancient Babylon (approx. 2000 BC), marking the birth of Tammuz, and is celebrated after a woman’s typical gestation period following the pagan fertility festival of Easter. By aligning Christ’s birth with this pagan festival, we risk blending the worship of God with sun worship, which the Bible condemns (Romans 1:25).

Yes--speculated. As in without real evidence. Because there isn't real evidence of this idea (similarly, Easter being a "pagan fertility festival" is simply speculation without backing). These claims are just speculations without actual evidence.

Let’s also remember the abominable practices described in Ezekiel 8:16-18, where the people were worshipping the sun in God’s temple—an act of rebellion against God. As Ecclesiastes 1:9 reminds us, “There is nothing new under the sun”, and such practices persist even today.

Additionally, Jeremiah 10:2-5 warns against the customs of the nations, such as cutting, fastening in place and decorating trees with silver and gold—practices still reflected in today’s December 25th tradition. This mirrors an ancient pagan ritual that elevates the tree to the status of an idol.

Jeremiah 10:2-5 is referring to taking out a tree and sculpting it into an idol. That's why it specifies "they cannot speak"--this would be an odd statement to make about a tree, but it makes sense if referring to a humanoid idol. It should be noted that I have been unable to find a single person who associated Jeremiah 10:2-5 with Christmas trees prior to the 20th century. Even people who opposed Christmas didn't seem to draw this connection.

More importantly, it is extremely unlikely that Christmas trees were taken from paganism, simply because Christmas trees appear to have first emerged around the 15th/16th century, far too late for any plausible pagan influence.

This picture is largely just repeating the same problems already discussed... though it should be noted that the idea of December 25 being a birthday of Mithra was really just a speculation of Franz Cumont that, unfortunately, a lot of people took for granted as accurate for quite a while because Cumont was considered such an authority on Mithraism.
 
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BeyondET

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Can we be certain that Jesus Christ was born on December 25th? The Bible gives no exact date for His birth, so why celebrate on a date tied to pagan traditions?

The first recorded instance of December 25th being celebrated as Christ's birth comes from a Roman calendar in AD 336, long after it was used to celebrate Dies Natalis Solis Invicti (the “Birthday of the Unconquered Sun”). This date is speculated to have origins in ancient Babylon (approx. 2000 BC), marking the birth of Tammuz, and is celebrated after a woman’s typical gestation period following the pagan fertility festival of Easter. By aligning Christ’s birth with this pagan festival, we risk blending the worship of God with sun worship, which the Bible condemns (Romans 1:25).

Let’s also remember the abominable practices described in Ezekiel 8:16-18, where the people were worshipping the sun in God’s temple—an act of rebellion against God. As Ecclesiastes 1:9 reminds us, “There is nothing new under the sun”, and such practices persist even today.

Additionally, Jeremiah 10:2-5 warns against the customs of the nations, such as cutting, fastening in place and decorating trees with silver and gold—practices still reflected in today’s December 25th tradition. This mirrors an ancient pagan ritual that elevates the tree to the status of an idol.

In Deuteronomy 12:29-32, God specifically commands His people not to adopt the worship practices of other nations, emphasizing that worship must align with His word in Bible scripture, not with man-made traditions.

If you love the LORD God, flee from this pagan festival and don’t justify it for the sake of family. Jesus said, “Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me” (Matthew 10:37 ESV).

We are commanded to worship God in spirit and truth. If the world or your family opposes you, rejoice, for your reward in heaven will be great. As they persecuted the prophets, so they will persecute you. May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you, to Him be the glory, now and forever.

View attachment 358963
Does that mean the pagan day names have to go too?
 
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Aaron112

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Okay.
Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece?
"Where do pagan people live?
Paganism is the ancestral religion of the whole of humanity. This ancient religious outlook remains active throughout much of the world today, both in complex civilisations such as Japan and India, and in less complex tribal societies world-wide."

"Pagans live in many places around the world, including:

  • United States: Most American pagans are middle-class, educated, and live in urban or" suburban areas on the East and West coasts.
 
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seeking.IAM

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It is fitting that Christians celebrate the Incarnation of our Savior. Since we don't know exactly when Christ was born, we can celebrate any day. Parties are more fun if everybody is celebrating at the same time. December 25 is as good as any other day.
 
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