Can someone briefly explain what's going on in Orthodoxy?

[hopeforhappiness]

The reason why I am asking is that I have dear friends in Central Asia who are Orthodox, in loyalty to the Moscow patriachate. Things were always respectful but non-compromising with me, a protestant in our admittedly shallow discussions. I did hear that they don't believe all orthodox patriachates are 'sound'.
But then the Ukraine war came along, and they accept the Ukraine is their brotherly Orthodox country, seduced by the West. They may be perplexed by the disastrous violence of the SMO, and have given up watching the internet.
I did say to them, that maybe the schisms in the Orthodox World that have ensued before and after the SMO should be pause for thought, but that was received without reply.
Relationships are distant now, especially with the internet not being used.
How can I understand their own pressures within Orthodoxy?

 

[ArmyMatt]

what exactly are you trying to understand that you can’t get from them, if I may ask?

 

[rusmeister]

The question is almost too large to answer.
“SMO” is the English translation of the Russian evil euphemism, “SVO” - “special military operation”, used to pretend that the conduct of the war is not a war. It is one of the things indicating that many Russians are also unwilling to hear or tell the truth.

Patriarchs are human beings. Unfortunately, they sometimes go wrong, and get caught up in trying to do good and improve the standing of the Church in the world, and get enmeshed in secular politics, as the Ecumenical Patriarch has done with the Western powers in his efforts to restore the ancient prestige of Constantinople, and as the Russian Patriarch has done with the Russian government.

Truth is now mixed with falsehood everywhere, and few can grasp the complexity and seek simple narratives, which the powers of this world are eager to offer.

 

[hopeforhappiness]

what exactly are you trying to understand that you can’t get from them, if I may ask?

I think I would like them to discuss the stresses that they are under (or not) because of past schisms in Orthodoxy and certainly what has happened in the Ukraine with both branches of the Orthodox church there loosening or breaking ties to Moscow. I'd like to know so that when fellowship is reopened, because they will be fragile, I don't put my foot in it unnecessarily.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think I would like them to discuss the stresses that they are under (or not) because of past schisms in Orthodoxy and certainly what has happened in the Ukraine with both branches of the Orthodox church there loosening or breaking ties to Moscow. I'd like to know so that when fellowship is reopened, because they will be fragile, I don't put my foot in it unnecessarily.

I think that’s something you can only know by talking to them. different folks are reacting to this schism differently.

 

[truefiction1]

The reason why I am asking is that I have dear friends in Central Asia who are Orthodox, in loyalty to the Moscow patriachate. Things were always respectful but non-compromising with me, a protestant in our admittedly shallow discussions. I did hear that they don't believe all orthodox patriachates are 'sound'.
But then the Ukraine war came along, and they accept the Ukraine is their brotherly Orthodox country, seduced by the West. They may be perplexed by the disastrous violence of the SMO, and have given up watching the internet.
I did say to them, that maybe the schisms in the Orthodox World that have ensued before and after the SMO should be pause for thought, but that was received without reply.
Relationships are distant now, especially with the internet not being used.
How can I understand their own pressures within Orthodoxy?

Understand it all in terms of these being the very last of times before the Parousia. See Revelation 22:11-12

 

[ValeriyK2022]

The question is very big. There are many aspects to this. I will try to complement what is written above.

Hieromartyr Daniel Sysoev evokes great respect for me. He was killed by a Muslim terrorist in Moscow in 2009. He was a candidate of theology and deeply understood these issues.
He said that on the one hand, there is a revival of the Orthodox Church in Russia. This is manifested by the construction of temples and printing. Such an abundance of patristic literature as has appeared in Russia since 2000 has never been seen in any Orthodox Church in the world.
On the other hand, there is secularization of the church. Many people forget that the calling of the Church is the salvation of human souls in Christ Jesus. In the church itself, many say that the main thing is what benefit the Church brings to society and the state. Father Daniel said that this is not the main thing. It's a by-product. That pagans also have patriotism in this form. And we Christians must be patriots of Heavenly Jerusalem.

But I see that now, unfortunately, the position of those who consider the main thing for the church to be beneficial to the state has begun to outweigh. This is how they understand this benefit - to support the state in everything.
Those who disagree are silent, because protesting can lead to imprisonment. I see it something like this.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

There are also interesting discussions by Father Daniel about globalization and discord between nations.

He gives the historical example of the conquests of Alexander the Great as a manifestation of God's providence. God allowed these conquests because as a result of them the borders from Portugal to India were practically erased, and the Old Testament was translated into Greek. All this was very important for preaching the Gospel.

Before the coming of the Antichrist, the Gospel must be preached throughout the world. This is what globalization serves. The world is uniting, boundaries are being erased. And those who fight globalization may be fighting God's plan, so they will not succeed.

As for relations between the United States and Russia, he says that it is no coincidence that these countries began to be very friendly in the early 90s, and in the second half of the 90s they began to quarrel again. This is no coincidence. Russia could learn a lot from the United States. And not only technology. For example, he says, most Americans in the first half of the 1990s went to church on Sunday and read Scripture. If the Russians accepted this, everything would be fine. But the Russians learned bad things from the Americans: debauchery, drugs, rock music and the occult. God set these peoples at odds so that the Russians would not adopt bad things so quickly.

On my own behalf, I would add that the same can be said about relations between Ukraine and Russia. Russia is the world champion in publishing patristic literature. But Ukrainians don’t read this much. Most of the occult literature and anti-Christian ideas about life before the early 2000s came to Ukraine from Russia.

 

[ArseniusTheSilent]

For example, he says, most Americans in the first half of the 1990s went to church on Sunday and read Scripture. If the Russians accepted this, everything would be fine.

Most Americans were going to church and reading scripture in the 1990s? That is a patently false statement as to the quality of faith in America in that decade.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

Most Americans were going to church and reading scripture in the 1990s? That is a patently false statement as to the quality of faith in America in that decade.

How do you know? Have you been to the USA?

What percentage of Americans attended church in 1990-1994 and what percentage now?

 

[ArseniusTheSilent]

I grew up, lived through this period of time and continue to live in the US.

To use the early 1990s after all the social and political upheaval of the Sexual Revolution of the 1960s, the hedonism of the 1970s and the self-absorbed capitalism of the 1980s (let alone the trend that continued and accelerated in the 1990s through to today with technology and social media at the forefront) as a starting point for discussion of faith is misguided.

It suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of faith historically in America by Fr. Daniel.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

I grew up, lived through this period of time and continue to live in the US.

To use the early 1990s after all the social and political upheaval of the Sexual Revolution of the 1960s, the hedonism of the 1970s and the self-absorbed capitalism of the 1980s (let alone the trend that continued and accelerated in the 1990s through to today with technology and social media at the forefront) as a starting point for discussion of faith is misguided.

It suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of faith historically in America by Fr. Daniel.

You misunderstood Father Daniel. He did not say that we need to copy EVERYTHING from the USA. He said that only the best should be copied. And the percentage of people who regularly read the Gospel and go to church meetings in the USA is still higher than in Russia (as far as I know).

What I understood from YouTube is that in Russia the clergy is divided into 2 parts. The first part believes that the cause of the collapse of the Russian Empire and the USSR were cunning and insidious enemies. Another part of the clergy believes that the reason was problems in society itself, which had moved away greatly from the Christian faith. Father Daniel belonged to the second part. He urged not to look for enemies, but to analyze your mistakes.

 

[truefiction1]

You misunderstood Father Daniel. He did not say that we need to copy EVERYTHING from the USA. He said that only the best should be copied. And the percentage of people who regularly read the Gospel and go to church meetings in the USA is still higher than in Russia (as far as I know).

What I understood from YouTube is that in Russia the clergy is divided into 2 parts. The first part believes that the cause of the collapse of the Russian Empire and the USSR were cunning and insidious enemies. Another part of the clergy believes that the reason was problems in society itself, which had moved away greatly from the Christian faith. Father Daniel belonged to the second part. He urged not to look for enemies, but to analyze your mistakes.

It was probably both problems in society itself and insidious enemies.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

If each country, in this case Russia, first of all set about correcting its society according to the commandments of the Gospel (and did not look for external enemies), then this terrible war between Russia and Ukraine would not have happened.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

How do you know? Have you been to the USA?

What percentage of Americans attended church in 1990-1994 and what percentage now?

Gallup polls

U.S. Church Attendance Still Lower Than Pre-Pandemic

Americans' church attendance levels dipped at the beginning of the pandemic and have remained lower since then.

news.gallup.com

 

[ArmyMatt]

Gallup polls

View attachment 336285

U.S. Church Attendance Still Lower Than Pre-Pandemic

Americans' church attendance levels dipped at the beginning of the pandemic and have remained lower since then.

news.gallup.com

sad data, I must say

 

[ValeriyK2022]

Gallup polls

View attachment 336285

U.S. Church Attendance Still Lower Than Pre-Pandemic

Americans' church attendance levels dipped at the beginning of the pandemic and have remained lower since then.

news.gallup.com

Father Daniel is right after all. Посещаемость церкви — Википедия

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

sad data, I must say

It goes back to the 1950s so the "golden age of religion" in the 20th century still shows that religious attendance never was over 50% on a weekly basis.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It goes back to the 1950s so the "golden age of religion" in the 20th century still shows that religious attendance never was over 50% on a weekly basis.

indeed, I wonder if that ties at all to televangelism, where folks started having “church” via the TV

 

[gzt]

Gallup polls

View attachment 336285

U.S. Church Attendance Still Lower Than Pre-Pandemic

Americans' church attendance levels dipped at the beginning of the pandemic and have remained lower since then.

news.gallup.com

Pretty interesting article -- rough decline over the last several years, note that the 2018 label is at 32% so it's not just the pandemic.