In what cases can a traditional church be banned in democratic states? The Ukrainian Orthodox Church may be banned.

[prodromos]

I know it is not much, but please remember that the UOC has the support of the OCA, Bulgarian, Serbian, and Antiochian Orthodox Churches.

And ROCOR.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

You know, the relationship between the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and the Orthodox Church in America is a really good one. What if the Ukrainian Orthodox Church put itself under the OCA? I mean, what better way to keep the Ukrainian government away than to be under the American Church as an autonomous Church? At least until the war is over.

Real autocephaly would be the best solution but Moscow will never grant it. At least being under the OCA, the UOC would be able to exist as it is and also avoid being under Constantinople. It would also indirectly tie American aide to the safety of the hypthetical-OCA-affiliated UOC.

I agree that for the salvation of the soul it does not matter what church, as long as it is canonical and Orthodox.
But the same claims will be made against the American Orthodox Church: despite the fact that it is autocephalous, it does not have its own patriarch, but is blessing for some things by the Moscow Patriarch. Or was blessed earlier, at the time of receiving autocephaly.
Some regions tried to register parishes of the Serbian Orthodox Church. But it seems that local authorities refused to register them. Or maybe the Serbian Patriarch was afraid to accept them. I don’t know for sure, I only heard that it didn’t work out.

As for autocephaly from Moscow, it turns out that Moscow already offered autocephaly in the early 90s. But those bishops who went to Moscow were divided: half wanted autocephaly, and the other half demanded that the UOC not be given autocephaly. And the Moscow Patriarchate then, in order to avoid another split within Ukrainian Orthodoxy, found a compromise: broad independence without autocephaly. The UOC has more rights than the so-called autocephalous OCU. The UOC can not communicate with the Moscow Patriarchate for years and decades and decide all its own issues. But without a tomos of autocephaly.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

And ROCOR.

Thank you! Glory to God!

Thank God, the UOC is recognized by all Orthodox churches in the world now. No matter what countries our refugees ended up in, they could go to Orthodox churches and participate in the sacraments.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

As one of the proofs of the "crime", one priest of the OCU cited the argument that the Charter of the UOC states that it received independence from the Moscow Patriarch, i.e. that the Moscow Patriarch is mentioned there. But I would answer him that the documents on independence and recognition of the current borders of Ukraine mention the former Russian president. So does this mean that Ukraine also has ties to Moscow, for which it should be banned? Absurd.

The two previous presidents (Poroshenko and Yushchenko) are godfathers. This means that one of them baptized the child of the other and also that they are both baptized. At the time of the elections in 2014, Petro Poroshenko stated that he was a member of the UOC. Now they claim that all members of the UOC are FSB agents. So does this mean that our presidents Poroshenko and Yushchenko are FSB agents? They may object that they have switched to the OCU, so now they are no longer agents. And where have you seen FSB agents who would be fired from their jobs for switching from one religious organization to another? Also absurd.

They have spun this case so cleverly that they have come out on themselves? Absurd.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

This is former President Poroshenko, who served as a sexton in one of the Kyiv monasteries of the UOC before the 2014 elections:

But the same President Poroshenko is in parliament with pickets: "the UOC is an agent net of Moscow" (2024):

That is, the Ukrainian people voted for him as a member of the UOC. And after the elections, he created his own church, left the UOC and called his voters agents of Moscow...

 

[cradleGO]

Everything cannot be just about the U.S, Nato, and Ukraine.

Your European neighbors, Poland for example, need to put troops on the ground in Ukraine to help Ukraine- inside Ukraine. They know they are next in line if Ukraine falls and they do not need NATO approval and it does not commit NATO for them to act independently to help themselves and Ukraine.

Poland is actively considering it and their foreign minister has said "they do not rule it out." And Poland has replaced Germany as the leader of economic and military matters in the EU and also has a productive relationship with both Biden and Trump. Versus Germany which has to dither and try to figure out which side it is on from time to time.

Agreed. I don't see the problem. Poland and the other NATO neighbors could shoot down Moscow's missiles from their own territories. Would free up Ukrainian air defense from western Ukraine. Cost should be the only barrier - nothing else. Slava Ukraini!

 

[cradleGO]

I had been away from this site for a while and when I came back, I expected this sort of propaganda everywhere. Other than a few jibes against the EP here and there, it has been mostly absent, at least from the posts that interested me. The OP is full blown Moscow propaganda. I don't want to be banned, but I don't want to mince my words.
The OP author has volume, and there are "errors" throughout his comments. Too many to deal with individually.

The 'gist' is that Kyiv is the mother of Moscow and not the other way around. The dominance of Moscow was affirmed in the 18th century when it uncanonically took over the Kyiv Metropolitanate. Given the independence of Ukraine, the EP corrected the 18th century theft by Moscow by inviting the various Orthodox factions - at least 3 of them - in Ukraine to unite in order to receive the Tomos of autocephaly. All three main jurisdictions were represented in the unification council. They affirmed their commitment to a canonical Church, elected a Primate, and was bestowed the Tomos.

The Moscow church has been a tool of the Russian state since Tsarist times. In the past, their interests were congruent. For whatever reasons, at least for Ukraine, Moscow aligns with the murderer Putin. The joint theme is the ethnophyletic "Russian World"/"Russian Peace" that Belo, Ukr, and Moscovites are one people. Somehow this justifies the slaughter of babies and the destruction of cities - the Mongol/Golden Horde way.

As to the original question - the pretext for the Moscow propaganda - if a "religion" was controlled by a power at war with the US, then yes the US would seek means to limit the activities of that religion. What Ukraine has said to the Moscow entity on Ukraine is to demonstrate its separation from Moscow. Not just an empty statement, but actions. Hierarchs cannot be on the Moscow Synod. But that poses a problem in Orthodoxy. There is a canonical Orthodox church in Ukraine. And the Moscow version would have no canonical right to exist without a link to a See. So, the Ukrainian Rada gave the Moscow entity 9 months to rid itself of Moscow's control. Nine months.

What is interesting - sadly interesting - prior to the full invasion, many people didn't know the Ukrainian national anthem, or valued their "Ukraineness" in any special way. Also, Russian speaking areas, like Kharkiv, now hate the Moscovites for their destruction, brutality and terror.

Putin has united Ukraine as rarely before. Putin has made the canonical Orthodox Church of Ukraine into the Church with the largest Orthodox adherents based on scientific surveys. (Its Primate was recently voted among the most influential people in Ukraine - the only cleric.) Putin has united NATO and brought in Sweden and Finland into NATO. In these ways, the murderer Putin has done God's Work. God works in mysterious ways indeed!

Slava Ukraini!

 

[ValeriyK2022]

The Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU) began by violating the canons from the moment of its creation.

As for the historical aspects, one can argue for a long time, but as of 2019, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (UOC) was the only canonical, world-recognized church in the entire Orthodox world.

1. According to Orthodox canons, it is impossible to create a church on the canonical territory of another church. Thus, the very creation of the OCU on the territory of the UOC was non-canonical.

2. The second argument is that the activists supporting the OCU began with violence. I am not saying that all members of the OCU agree with this. But the violent seizure of churches and monasteries is true. At first, activists with sledgehammers and crowbars burst into the territories of UOC churches and forcibly pushed out members of the UOC with the connivance of the authorities. They acted and act not by the power of words, not by the power of persuasion, but often they act with violence. In one region, the OCU took 20 churches from the UOC and registered 1 priest as the rector of all 20 churches. Thus, 19 out of 20 are now locked, like under the communists. There were 150-200 monks of the UOC in the Kiev-Pechersk Lavra, now there is 1 monk of the OCU instead of them, because the OCU has almost no monks.

3. The personnel of the OCU priesthood raises serious doubts. They have 3 types of clergy:
3.1. clergy ordained in the ROC and UOC, but defrocked banned from serving by their church;
3.2. clergy who transferred from the Kyiv Patriarchate and ordained by former Metropolitan Filaret Denisenko, who was not only defrocked and banned from serving, but is also under the anathema of the ROC. Also clergymen ordained by other clergymen who had already been defrocked at the time of ordination;
3.3. clergymen who came from the UOC and are under a ban on church service. Thus, the OCU has no canonical clergymen.

The canons of the Orthodox Church were adopted at the Ecumenical Councils more than 1100 years ago and it is not for us to change them.

At the same time, the only canonical orthodox church of Ukraine, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (UOC). Due to the adoption of such a law, where the terms are written ambiguously, and other actions of the authorities, there cannot be canonical Orthodoxy in Ukraine with officially legally registered canonical orthodox religious organizations.

But as King Solomon said: this too shall pass!

Thank God for everything!

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT


This thread is closed at OP request. ​