LDS Book of Mormon, PoGP, D&C

[dzheremi]

Huh. I guess Brigham Young is (a) God, since he's making that call.

Ugh.

Which way to Outer Darkness? I'd rather go there, in that case.

 

[Ironhold]

Church President Brigham Young, who said “that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent.”

To clarify -

All key prophets over a dispensation will have the right to sit in judgement of the people of that period alongside God.

Moses will have the right to sit in judgement over his day, Isaiah his, et cetra.

 

[dzheremi]

To clarify -

All key prophets over a dispensation will have the right to sit in judgement of the people of that period alongside God.

What? Man judges man, or somehow 'advises' God or something? How does this work?

Moses will have the right to sit in judgement over his day, Isaiah his, et cetra.

Didn't Moses already bring God's judgment upon his own people of his day (and upon himself, ultimately) while still alive?

 

[Jane_Doe]

What do Mormons believe about salvation? And are they polytheistic?

(Actual LDS person here, explaining actual LDS beliefs)

LDS believe that salvation comes through Christ & His gift. We are to have faith in Him. Now that doesn't mean we're supposed to just sit around and continue loving our sins-- no no, as Christ Himself said "If you love me, keep my commandments". And of course that includes the commandment to repent when we screw up (which happens frequently).

LDS believe are also monotheists. We believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are three different persons, in ONE God. There are difference in belief in the how these three are one than Athanasian beliefs.

If you would like me to elaborate more on any of this, I'd be happy to, including over PM.

 

[Jane_Doe]

That being said, Mormons don't think we're going to be tortured in hellfire forever, even if we're Catholics or Protestants or what. Most of us, according to them, will probably end up spending eternity in a realm where we will be visited by Jesus Christ, so I wouldn't worry too much about their otherwise hostile-sounding remarks. (Even if we're really bad people to be Catholics or Protestants, even so the worst that's likely to happen is we'll end up in the Telestial Kingdom, where the Spirit will visit us and which is supposedly so beautiful that we'd probably kill ourselves to get there.)

Actual LDS person clarifying actual LDS beliefs here:

Ripheus27, we acknowledge you and every other Christ-loving person on here as being disciple of Christ. No, LDS don't go around thinking that you're "nonChristian" or worship the devil, or any other nonsense like that. You're a disciple of Christ. Yes, we have disagreements on some aspects of theology. But that doesn't change anyone's very real love of Christ. And love of Christ is not determine by what bench a person's butt keeps warm Sunday morning.

 

[drstevej]

(Actual LDS person here, explaining actual LDS beliefs)

LDS believe that salvation comes through Christ & His gift. We are to have faith in Him. Now that doesn't mean we're supposed to just sit around and continue loving our sins-- no no, as Christ Himself said "If you love me, keep my commandments". And of course that includes the commandment to repent when we screw up (which happens frequently).

LDS believe are also monotheists. We believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are three different persons, in ONE God. There are difference in belief in the how these three are one than Athanasian beliefs.

If you would like me to elaborate more on any of this, I'd be happy to, including over PM.

And where does Heavenly Mom fit into this? You omitted her. Why? Doesn't fit your recruiting taactics?

 

[Ripheus27]

There is no LDS scripture that says that the lower kingdoms are that wonderful.

I stand corrected, http://emp.byui.edu/satterfieldb/quotes/Telestial.htm says the quote I offered is "apocryphal." Nevertheless, telestial glory (supposedly) surpasses our understanding, so again, not a heck of a lot to worry about (and recall, that's not what Christians will get (according to the LDS theory) because Christians will be in the higher land of terrestrial glory; again, Mormons aren't threatening us with something particularly deplorable).

EDIT:

What? Man judges man, or somehow 'advises' God or something? How does this work?

Will the saints not judge angels and the world?

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Church President Brigham Young, who said “that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent.”

What a bunch of malarkey .
Only God knows , but if I had to guess Brigham Young and Joseph Smith's name will not be found in the Book of Life.
They both taught MAJOR falsehoods worthy of damnation.
Bunch of narcissistic clowns who spit in the face of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[Rescued One]

(Actual LDS person here, explaining actual LDS beliefs)

LDS believe that salvation comes through Christ & His gift. We are to have faith in Him. Now that doesn't mean we're supposed to just sit around and continue loving our sins-- no no, as Christ Himself said "If you love me, keep my commandments". And of course that includes the commandment to repent when we screw up (which happens frequently).

LDS believe are also monotheists. We believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are three different persons, in ONE God. There are difference in belief in the how these three are one than Athanasian beliefs.

If you would like me to elaborate more on any of this, I'd be happy to, including over PM.

You may be LDS but you apparently don't know the LDS church's teachings.

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: “I believe firmly that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. He taught this doctrine to his disciples. He did not teach them that he was the Son of the Holy Ghost, but the Son of the Father. Truly, all things are done by the power of the Holy Ghost. It was through this power that Jesus was brought into this world, but not as the Son of the Holy Ghost, but the Son of God. Jesus is greater than the Holy Spirit, which is subject unto him, but his Father is greater than he! He has said it. Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!” (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:18).
Book of Mormon Student Manual, 1989, Alma 7:10, p.74

Mormons are henotheists. They are not monotheists.

The Son Does What the Father Did
As the Father hath power in Himself, so hath the Son power in Himself, to lay down His life and take it again, so He has a body of His own. The Son doeth what He hath seen the Father do: then the Father hath some day laid down His life and taken it again; so He has a body of His own; each one will be in His own body; and yet the sectarian world believe the body of the Son is identical with the Father’s.

Gods have an ascendancy over the angels, who are ministering servants. In the resurrection some are raised to become angels, others are raised to become Gods.

These things are revealed in the most holy places in a Temple prepared for that purpose...D. H. C. 5:423
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 312


Doctrine and Covenants 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

Agency Existed in the Premortal World

• 
  How were those in the premortal world able to “reject the Spirit of God”? (Alma 13:4). President Joseph Fielding Smith (1876–1972) confirmed the eternal principle of agency as he answered this question:
  
  “God gave his children their free agency even in the [premortal] spirit world, by which the individual spirits had the privilege, just as men have here, of choosing the good and rejecting the evil, or partaking of the evil to suffer the consequences of their sins. Because of this, some even there were more faithful than others in keeping the commandments of the Lord. …
  • “The spirits of men had their free agency. … The spirits of men were not equal. They may have had an equal start, and we know they were all innocent in the beginning; but the right of free agency which was given to them enabled some to outstrip others, and thus, through the eons of immortal existence, to become more intelligent, more faithful, for they were free to act for themselves, to think for themselves, to receive the truth or rebel against it” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 1:58–59).
  Chapter 26: Alma 13–16

 

[Rescued One]

I stand corrected, http://emp.byui.edu/satterfieldb/quotes/Telestial.htm says the quote I offered is "apocryphal." Nevertheless, telestial glory (supposedly) surpasses our understanding, so again, not a heck of a lot to worry about (and recall, that's not what Christians will get (according to the LDS theory) because Christians will be in the higher land of terrestrial glory; again, Mormons aren't threatening us with something particularly deplorable).

EDIT:



Will the saints not judge angels and the world?

How odd that you don't think separation from God is deplorable. How can you possibly think their fictitious telestial kingdom that separates man from God is glorious?

 

[Ripheus27]

How odd that you don't think separation from God is deplorable. How can you possibly think their fictitious telestial kingdom that separates man from God is glorious?

You can't be deliberately misquoting me, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt and explain myself once more. (I also know from experience that ex-members of some faith groups get sort of oil-colored glasses over their eyes when it comes to anyone trying to say anything nice or neutral about the ex-faith, so I appreciate your hostility for what it is, as such, though as a man who tries to avoid being hostile I cannot share your attitude, for that among other reasons.)

So, as Christians we want to spend eternity with Christ. That's the key thing. Granted, the Son would not be the Son without the Father being the Father and the Spirit being the Spirit, so loving the Son has us love the Father and the Spirit. All that being said, let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that Mormonism were true and so non-Mormons will not spend eternity with God the Father. According to the LDS, Christ and the Spirit are both divine beings. And we will be visited by them in the Terrestrial Kingdom, and visited at least by the Spirit in the Telestial Kingdom. And so on. So, according to the LDS, most Christians will get their wish to spend eternity, even if not constantly with the Son and the Spirit, at least in realms where these divine beings frequently manifest. They will not spend eternity with the LDS version of God the Father, neither will that being visit them; however, the LDS version of God the Father is so far from what Christians wish the One True God to be that I daresay they will not, for that reason, feel they are missing out on a lot. They might think, "Oh, if only I'd converted!" because they'll know some "deeper" truth, but on this side of the veil, given how unlikely it is that many of us will ever be swayed by the often peculiar logic of the LDS magisterium, then why worry so much about what they think will happen to us?

It's not like the LDS would nuke American cities that believed in "idolatry," for instance. But there's a form of Calvinism that would nuke Mormon cities if it could. If I were going to spend much time worrying about which Christian or quasi-Christian denomination or set of denominations is likeliest to oppress/massacre/etc. people, I know who I'd spend my posting time critiquing. If all I have to worry about is the LDS threatening me with a lesser version of a happy afterlife, well, IDK what to say, that's hardly a real threat. And getting offended about some abstract opposition between two mythological forms of the Church and the attribution of the darker opposite to non-Mormons is not necessarily a legitimate attitude.

 

[drstevej]

But there's a form of Calvinism that would nuke Mormon cities if it could.

Document or retract.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Note that people of all walks are in the light, just as people of all walks are in the darkness.

That doesn't fall within the definition of 'Church'. A Church is first a visible community of believers.

 

[Jane_Doe]

That doesn't fall within the definition of 'Church'. A Church is first a visible community of believers.

The term "church" can be used to describe a group of people who meet visibly in a physical building, or any other bunch of people who believe X that don't even physically have to get together.

For the quote being referenced earlier, it's not referring to a group of folks who get together in a physical way at all, but rather talking about where your heart is-- do you ultimately follow God or mammon?

 

[Eloy Craft]

The term "church" can be used to describe a group of people who meet visibly in a physical building, or any other bunch of people who believe X that don't even physically have to get together.

For the quote being referenced earlier, it's not referring to a group of folks who get together in a physical way at all, but rather talking about where your heart is-- do you ultimately follow God or mammon?

But how does a visible Church claim all the followers as members of theirs?

 

[Jane_Doe]

But how does a visible Church claim all the followers as members of theirs?

No one is doing that.

The verse in question is not correctly interpreted as "Mormons are going to heaven and everyone else worships the devil". No no! Rather, it's pointing out that ultimately you can serve God or mammon. There are indeed some folks that sit in non-LDS pews and do indeed strive to follow God completely, and are His servants. And there are some folks who sit in LDS pews that have sadly let their love of the world come first.

 

[drstevej]

There are indeed some folks that sit in non-LDS pews and do indeed strive to follow God completely, and are His servants. And there are some folks who sit in LDS pews that have sadly let their love of the world come first.

So why do we need the LDS church?

 

[Rescued One]

You can't be deliberately misquoting me, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt and explain myself once more. (I also know from experience that ex-members of some faith groups get sort of oil-colored glasses over their eyes when it comes to anyone trying to say anything nice or neutral about the ex-faith, so I appreciate your hostility for what it is, as such, though as a man who tries to avoid being hostile I cannot share your attitude, for that among other reasons.)

I do not have oil-colored glasses over my eyes and that was an unnecessary insinuation. I am not hostile to truth. My attitude as you perceive it is not hostile; my attitude is pro-accuracy. Are you hostile to correction?

LDS gods can be in only one place at a time. If the LDS Jesus is with the people who became gods and thus made it to the Church of the Firstborn, he can only visit those in the terrestial kingdom. He doesn't dwell with them. The Church if the Firstborn is the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. The Holy Ghost doesn't visit those in the terrestrial kingdom. The Holy Ghost only visits those in the telestial kingdom. I'm very sorry that your statements were slightly off. I'm sorry that you are upset with me.

• 
  
• Who will live in the telestial kingdom? (D&C 76:81–82, 103.) Which member of the Godhead will visit the people in the telestial kingdom? (D&C 76:86, 88.) Explain that the Holy Ghost and angels will minister to the people in the telestial kingdom. The people there will know about Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ but will never live with them or see them.
• Who will live in the terrestrial kingdom? (D&C 76:71–76.) Which member of the Godhead will visit the people in the terrestrial kingdom? (D&C 76:77.) Explain that Jesus Christ will visit the people in the terrestrial kingdom. The people there will know about Heavenly Father but will never live with him.

Lesson 23: The Prophet Receives a Vision of the Three Degrees of Glory

 

[Ripheus27]

Document or retract.

In one of his books (either The Defense of the Faith or A Christian Theory of Knowledge, I don't remember which one right now) Cornelius Van Til says something about using "atomic" weapons on "the natural man," or the "fortress of the natural man," or some such thing. He was being metaphorical, but the Christian Reconstructionists who think that it is permissible to apply a "Biblical penalty" of "death for idolatry" to Mormon cities (that was reported in a book called Building God's Kingdom, pg. 309), would not be.

EDIT:

LDS gods can be in only one place at a time. If the LDS Jesus is with the people who became gods and thus made it to the Church of the Firstborn, he can only visit those in the terrestial kingdom. He doesn't dwell with them. The Church if the Firstborn is the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. The Holy Ghost doesn't visit those in the terrestrial kingdom. The Holy Ghost only visits those in the telestial kingdom. I'm very sorry that your statements were slightly off. I'm sorry that you are upset with me.

You don't have to be sorry, as my statements weren't slightly off, but neither was I upset with you. I just noticed that you made a post where you express a strong negative attitude towards the LDS idea of the two churches, which post makes it seem like being in the LDS version of the false church is a terrible thing to be accused of, when in reality the LDS afterlife belief is not very harsh and so it is not clear how strong the LDS idea is supposed to be in the first place (strong of a motivator among them, that is).

 

[drstevej]

In one of his books (either The Defense of the Faith or A Christian Theory of Knowledge, I don't remember which one right now) Cornelius Van Til says something about using "atomic" weapons on "the natural man," or the "fortress of the natural man," or some such thing. He was being metaphorical, but the Christian Reconstructionists who think that it is permissible to apply a "Biblical penalty" of "death for idolatry" to Mormon cities (that was reported in a book called Building God's Kingdom, pg. 309), would not be.

FWIW, Cornelius Van Til is a very congenial man. I had the opportunity to talk with him several times while a student at WTS. He hung around to talk with students, even dispensationalists like me...

Who is the author of the book you cite?