Battle of Dual Covenant Theology and the Charge of "Replacement Theology"

[jgr]

Genesis 17 is referring to Abraham.

Genesis 17:12 is referring to Abraham, and to not Abraham.

When were the latter excluded from the Sinai covenant?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Gal_3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
.

Yep. Isn't God just wonderful

#g602 used in only 1 verse of the Gospels, Luke.

Luke 2:32
A light into a revelation<602> of Gentiles/Nations, [Revelation 1:1]
And the glory of Your people Israel.”

Rom 2:5
But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart
you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation<602> of the righteous judgment of God,

Revelation Chapter 1 Verses
LLoJ Revelation verse by verse 1:1 translation/study

Revelation 1:1
A revelation<602> of Jesus Christ, which gives to Him, the GOD, to show to the bond-servants of Him,
which-things is binding to be becoming In<1722> Swiftness<5034>.

...............................

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Persons converting to Judaism are not considered gentiles any longer but Jews (according to Judaism), when they place themselves under the law. To be under the law, a person has to be part of the people who part of the Mt. Sinai covenant.

Gentiles were never part of the Mt. Sinai covenant.

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

________________________________________________________

Old covenant and new covenant are terms pertaining to Israel.

The gospel - the good news - forgiveness of sins and eternal life pertains to the Church.

The ideas expressed in your post seem to be overlooking quite a few scriptural passages in the new testament. I agree that we disagree.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

“Trinity” does not explicitly appear in Scripture. “Ephraim” does. We are therefore compelled to abide by what is said, and what is not said, concerning it.

If “Ephraim” can explicitly appear as the name of a New Testament city, then there is no reason that it should not also explicitly appear in association with what you espouse, which is of far greater significance, if what you espouse is Scriptural.

It does not so appear.

Such espousal thus constitutes an importation of “interpretation by imagination” of the type so frequently seen in the dispensational genre.


What is replacement theology, and how is it heresy?

It takes a far greater imagination to maintain the “nation” in Matthew 21:43 represents the gentiles as the husbandmen of the vineyard, which replaced Israel; that is Replacement theology. The plain truth is that the “nation” isn’t expressly defined in the text, so your presumption that your Replacement theology is a slam-dunk is simply that: presumption. In truth, there are countless examples where God cloaked parties and phenomena in scripture in allegories and symbols, so your insistence that the “nation” in question must be explicitly expressed as Ephraim is fallacious.

My position is supported with the grammatical-historical hermeneutic, which is saliently absent in your Replacement theological perception. You apparently missed my post that made it abundantly clear that the appellation, Ephraim, was also used in the OT as one of the “titles” for Israel in texts such as Isaiah 11:13; Hosea 5:5,5:12-14,6:4,10:11,11:12; Ezekiel 37:16-19 and Zechariah 9:13,10:6. Israel is also given the “title” of Joseph and Jacob; look it up! Now, how many times is “Israel” used in the NT? Here’s one correlative example.

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. (Hebrews 8:8)​

Here we have an absolute truth that when the NC was ratified by Christ, God still perceived BOTH HOUSES of Israel as discrete nations, and Ephraim is indisputably an established “title” for Israel by God’s word. And as I stated in prior posts, Zechariah 11:14 substantiates that God ordained enmity between both houses at the first advent, which is not entirely abated until Christ returns in Isaiah 11:13. Now maybe now you’ll actually get around to dealing with the real evidence instead of fallacious arguments.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Christ is the Servant that is tasked to "raise up the tribes of Jacob" at the time the "nation" Judah is ordained to abhor the Redeemer (Isaiah 49:6-7). Clearly, Jacob is also Ephraim that is desolate, captive, and removing to and fro (v.21), which we also see in Isaiah 54:1. The Servant is also tasked to be a light to the Gentiles, that he may be God's salvation unto the end of the earth (v. 6). All of which was ordained for the first advent.

If “Ephraim” can explicitly appear as the name of a New Testament city, then there is no reason that it should not also explicitly appear in association with what you espouse, which is of far greater
Such espousal thus constitutes an importation of “interpretation by imagination” of the type so frequently seen in the dispensational genre.
What is replacement theology, and how is it heresy?

Ephraim.......and Dan are not mentioned in Revelation.......Here is some info on Ephraim.......

Zec 9
10 I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim
And the horse from Jerusalem; [Revelation 18:10-13]
The battle bow shall be cut off.
He shall speak peace to the nations;
His dominion shall be ‘from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth.'[fn]
13 For I have bent Judah, My bow, Fitted the bow with Ephraim,
And raised up your sons, O Zion, Against your sons, O Greece,
And made you like the sword of a mighty man.”
==================
Paul's tribe of Benjamin is stationed with both Ephraim and Manasseh on the west side, the side the Holy of Holies is located at,
and just opposite of Judah on the east side where the entrance gate is.

Num 2:18
3 “On the east side, toward the rising of the sun, those of the standard of the forces with Judah shall camp according to their armies; and Nahshon the son of Amminadab shall be the leader of the children of Judah.”
18 “On the west side the standard of the forces with Ephraim according to their armies, and the leader of the children of Ephraim shall be Elishama the son of Ammihud.
===================
The tribe of Levi eventually joined with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin to comprise the Southern priestly kingdom, creating the House/Kingdom of Judah

Hebrew 7:14
For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah,
and in regard to that tribe, Moses said nothing about priests.

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 18:
10 From afar<3113> having stood because of the fear of the tormenting<929> of Her saying
"Woe! woe! the great City Babylon! the strong City!
That to one hour came the judging<2920> of Thee.

12 Cargo of gold and silver,................................
13 .....................................
and wheat and cattle and sheep
and of horses and of chariots
and of bodies and souls of men.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Ephraim.......and Dan are not mentioned in Revelation.......Here is some info on Ephraim.......

Zec 9
10 I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim
And the horse from Jerusalem; [Revelation 18:10-13]
The battle bow shall be cut off.
He shall speak peace to the nations;
His dominion shall be ‘from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth.'[fn]
13 For I have bent Judah, My bow, Fitted the bow with Ephraim,
And raised up your sons, O Zion, Against your sons, O Greece,
And made you like the sword of a mighty man.”
==================
Paul's tribe of Benjamin is stationed with both Ephraim and Manasseh on the west side, the side the Holy of Holies is located and just opposite of Judah on the east side where the entrance gate is.

Num 2:18
3 “On the east side, toward the rising of the sun, those of the standard of the forces with Judah shall camp according to their armies; and Nahshon the son of Amminadab shall be the leader of the children of Judah.”
18 “On the west side the standard of the forces with Ephraim according to their armies, and the leader of the children of Ephraim shall be Elishama the son of Ammihud.
===================
The tribe of Levi eventually joined with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin to comprise the Southern priestly kingdom, creating the House/Kingdom of Judah

Hebrew 7:14
For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah,
and in regard to that tribe, Moses said nothing about priests.


View attachment 252777


The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 18:
10 From afar<3113> having stood because of the fear of the tormenting<929> of Her saying
"Woe! woe! the great City Babylon! the strong City!
That to one hour came the judging<2920> of Thee.

12 Cargo of gold and silver,................................
13 .....................................
and wheat and cattle and sheep
and of horses and of chariots
and of bodies and souls of men.

Context determines whether Ephraim represents the tribe or the nation. In Revelation, it represents the tribe. In Zechariah 9:10, it represents the nation.

 

[Douggg]

Hebrew 7:14
For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah,
and in regard to that tribe, Moses said nothing about priests.

If I might make an additional comment. I am not arguing any point of your post. Just commenting in referring to the end times. Hebrews 7 also mentions the priesthood of Melchizedek, which refers back to Psalms 110. There is information in Psalms 110 that is specific to the end times.

Psalms 110 + Psalms 2 + Ezekiel 39:17-29 = Jesus.

Psalms 2 - why do the heathen rage and image a vain thing?

Psalms 110 - He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

Ezekiel 39:21 - And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

 

[jgr]

The plain truth is that the “nation” isn’t expressly defined in the text, so your presumption that your Replacement theology is a slam-dunk is simply that: presumption.

It is defined in 1 Peter 2:9 (where"ye" and "you" are "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people") and reconfirmed in Revelation 1:6 (where "us" are "kings and priests").

In both cases, it refers to the Church.

Context determines whether Ephraim represents the tribe or the nation. I Revelation it represents the tribe. In Zechariah 9:10, it represents the nation.

Ephraim is conspicuously omitted from the tribal list in Revelation 7.


If you reject replacement theology, then you believe that God still has two peoples, Israel (or Ephraim) and the Church. Is that understanding accurate?

 

[Jerryhuerta]

It is defined in 1 Peter 2:9 (where"ye" and "you" are "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people) and reconfirmed in Revelation 1:6 (where "us" are "kings and priests").

In both cases, it refers to the Church.



Ephraim is conspicuously omitted from the tribal list in Revelation 7.


If you reject replacement theology, then you believe that God still has two peoples, Israel and the Church. Is that accurate?

You didn't read the next verse in Peter where he quotes from Hosea 2:23, which unquestionably is about how God has mercy of the ten tribes, Ephraim. Ephraim represents a nation as does Judah, in scripture, the singular; the gentiles are many nations, plural. The Greek term for "nation" in Matthew 21:43 is singular. Ephraim in Revelation 7 represents the tribe. Ephraim in Ezekiel 37 and Isaiah 11 represents the nation. God tasks Christ, the Servant, to raise the tribes of Ephraim/Israel/Jacob (Isaiah 49:6) and they inherit the gentiles (Isaiah 54:3) in fulfillment that in Abraham all the families of the earth will be blessed (Genesis 12:3). The Church is the vehicle to raise the tribes of Jacob and inherit the nations that are called by the Servants name in Isaiah 49:3, Israel (Amos 9:12).

 

[jgr]

Ephraim in Revelation 7 represents the tribe.

Ephraim does not appear in Revelation 7. How can it represent the tribe if it does not appear?

Are there two peoples of God?

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Ephraim does not appear in Revelation 7. How can it represent the tribe if it does not appear?

Are there two peoples of God?

You're evading the point that Israel, the northern ten tribes, also goes by the term Ephraim. In Revelation, the tribe is not sealed and one has to read and understand Hosea to know why. It doesn't distract from the grammatical-historical evidence that the church is the vehicle to raise the tribes of Ephraim/Israel/Jacob and inherit the gentiles, becoming "one people" in Christ. Even so, women remain women, men remain men, and Ephraimites remain Ephraimites, biologically.

 

[jgr]

You're evading the point that Israel, the northern ten tribes, also goes by the term Ephraim. In Revelation, the tribe is not sealed and one has to read and understand Hosea to know why. It doesn't distract from the grammatical-historical evidence that the church is the vehicle to raise the tribes of Ephraim/Israel/Jacob and inherit the gentiles, becoming "one people" in Christ. Even so, women remain women, men remain men, and Ephraimites remain Ephraimites, biologically.

After four millennia of genetic dispersion and diffusion, it is impossible to distinguish Ephraim (or any other tribe) biologically.

The Jewish community itself confirms (and applauds) the reality of its genetic ubiquity.

As does the mathematics.

But then, Israel was genetically multiracial from the beginning (Genesis 17:12), and God's Covenant People have never been distinguished by their physical DNA.

Only by the two chromosomes of their spiritual DNA.

Faith and obedience, and nothing else.

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If I might make an additional comment. I am not arguing any point of your post. Just commenting in referring to the end times. Hebrews 7 also mentions the priesthood of Melchizedek, which refers back to Psalms 110. There is information in Psalms 110 that is specific to the end times.
Psalms 110 + Psalms 2 + Ezekiel 39:17-29 = Jesus.
Psalms 2 - why do the heathen rage and image a vain thing?
Psalms 110 - He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
Ezekiel 39:21 - And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

Aren't we now Kings and Priests in the New Jerusalem?
This is in the "Present" tense..

Revelation 5:10
And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth."
Revelation 1:6
and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father,
to Him the glory and dominion into the ages of ages. Amen.

Other than the covenantle parable of the Rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16, Melchizedek was another large study of mine.
Here a thread on Him, tho it is almost 12 yrs old, that others may be interested in.

Melchizedek Connection, Royal Priesthood
Jan 21, 2007

Kindgdom Bible Studies Royal Priesthood Part 17
Melchizedek Connection, Royal Priesthood

Genesis 14:18
And Malkiy-Tsedeq, king of Shalem brought forth bread and wine and he a Priest of 'El-Most-High/'Elyown.
19 And he blessing him and he is saying, "being blessed Abram of 'El-most-high/'Elyown possessor of heavens and land 20 And being blessed 'El-most-high/'elyown, who awarded thy foes in thy hand". And he is giving to him a tenth of all.

Hebrews 7
1 For this the Malkiy-Tsedeq/melcisedek <3198>, King of Salem, Priest of the GOD of the most-high, the together-joining Abraham turning-back from the smiting of the kings, and did bless him. [Genesis 14:18]
12 For being changed/translated the Priesthood,
out of necessity also, of Law a change is becoming.

One of the most intriguing descriptions of the unique character of the High Priesthood of Jesus is found in Heb. 7:17 wherein it is stated, "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."

This one grand statement shows that Jesus is not like any of the other priests who the people of Israel knew so much about.
The entire seventh chapter of Hebrews is about THE MELCHIZEDEK CONNECTION, that is, it is about the way Jesus Christ, and thus, His body, the Royal Priesthood, is related to a strange man named Melchizedek.
And the connection between Jesus Christ and Melchizedek is worth exploring. Let's take a look at the Melchizedek Connection.

In Genesis, chapter fourteen, we have one of the most intriguing stories in the Bible, that of Abram's encounter with Melchizedek, king of Salem, and "the priest of the Most High God."
In the Genesis story Melchizedek is a strange and mysterious figure. He flashes across the scene like a meteor. There is no heralding of his appearance, nor any mention of its results. He arrives out of the blue; there is no account of his family; there is nothing about his birth, his descent, his life, his work, or his death.
He simply arrives. We learn only that he was king of Salem and priest of the Most High God. During the time of Abraham there were no large nations. Instead, there were small cities where families lived or around which a tribe of nomadic people settled.

The population of these cities was probably not more than a few hundred - at most a few thousand. Each city was presided over by a king. Often, these city-states were at war with one another. Sometimes cities would form alliances with other cities and form large armies that would then make war upon yet another city or alliance of cities. Such became the case in the lower Jordan where Lot, Abram's nephew, and his family settled. An alliance of Mesopotamian cities drove Lot out of the Canaanite city of Sodom where he lived and took him captive.

The whole place Melchizedek occupies in sacred history is one of the most remarkable proofs of the inspiration and the unity of Scripture, as written under the direct supernatural guidance of the Holy Spirit.
In the Book of Genesis all we know of him is told in three short, very simple verses. A thousand years later we find a Psalm with just one single verse, in which God Himself is introduced, swearing to His Son that He is to be a High Priest after the Order of Melchizedek. Another thousand years pass, and that single verse becomes the seed of the wondrous exposition, in the Epistle to the Hebrews, of the whole work of redemption in Christ Jesus. All its most remarkable characteristics are found enveloped in this wondrous type. The more we study it the more we exclaim: THIS IS THE LORD'S DOING; IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES.

 

[keras]

The scripture that proves it is the faithful people who are the real Israel of God.
Isaiah 8:17-18 I shall wait eagerly for the Lord, who is hiding His face from Israel, I shall put my trust in Him. Here we are: all children of our Lord – we are the signs and symbols of Israel, sent by the Lord, who dwells on Mt Zion.

 

[BABerean2]

Aren't we now Kings and Priests in the New Jerusalem?
This is in the "Present" tense..

It is our future destination, but we are not there yet, based on the following text.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


Rev_3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


Rev_21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


Did New Jerusalem come down during 70 AD?

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

ICONO'CLAST said: ↑
Israel was to be the Covenant Son, they failed;[during the first Exodus]
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:...........

Jerryhuerta said: ↑
Christ is the Servant that is tasked to "raise up the tribes of Jacob" at the time the "nation" Judah is ordained to abhor the Redeemer (Isaiah 49:6-7). Clearly, Jacob is also Ephraim that is desolate, captive, and removing to and fro (v.21),.......

jgr said: ↑
If “Ephraim” can explicitly appear as the name of a New Testament city, then there is no reason that it should not also explicitly appear in association with what you espouse, which is of far greater...............

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Hebrew 7:14For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah,
and in regard to that tribe, Moses said nothing about priests.

Douggg said: ↑
If I might make an additional comment. I am not arguing any point of your post. Just commenting in referring to the end times. Hebrews 7 also mentions the priesthood of Melchizedek, which refers back to Psalms 110. There is information in Psalms 110 that is specific to the end times.
Psalms 110 + Psalms 2 + Ezekiel 39:17-29 = Jesus.
Psalms 2 - why do the heathen rage and image a vain thing?
Psalms 110 - He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
Ezekiel 39:21 - And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Aren't we now Kings and Priests in the New Jerusalem?
This is in the "Present" tense..

It is our future destination, but we are not there yet, based on the following text.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The author of Hebrews has us in it so take that up with him.........

Please visit my "Allusions in Revelation" thread.

Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament

Hebrews 12:
18 For you have not come to a Mountain that might be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness, darkness, storm, 19 the sound of a trumpet, [Revelation 8:8]
and the voice of words; which those who heard it begged that not one more word should be spoken to them,

Revelation 8:8 And the second Messenger trumpets, and as a great Mountain to fire burning<2545> was cast into the sea, and became the third of the sea blood [Matthew 12:21 Hebrews 12:18]

22 But ye have come-toward<4334> Zion, to a Mountain and to a City of living God, a heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriad<3461> of messengers,
23 to the general assembly and assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 to Jesus, the mediator of a New/Young<3501> Covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better than that of Abel.

 

[parousia70]

Even so, the kingdom of God was taken from Judah and given to Ephraim.

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (Matthew 21:43)

The administration of the house of God changed hands.

When do you say this took place?

 

[BABerean2]

The author of Hebrews has us in it so take that up with him.........

OK

Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

OK

Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

.

That is referring to the OT Hebrews..........
The Cross and Resurrection of Jesus fulfilled it for them.

The unbelieving Jews of today do not understand the NC under Jesus unless they read the Christian NT, and especially the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation.
Do you consider yourself in the NC of Jesus?

Read Revelation as an OC Hebrew Jew would and your eyes will also become "unveiled"

Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament

2 Corinthians 3
12 Having, then, such hope, we use much freedom of speech,
13and not as Moses, who was putting a veil<2571> upon his own face, for the sons of Israel not stedfastly to look to the end of that which is being made useless,
14 but their minds were hardened,
for unto this day the same veil<2571> at the reading of the Old Covenant doth remain unwithdrawn —
which in Christ is being made useless — [Revelation 1:1]
15 but till to-day, when Moses is read, a veil<2571> upon their heart doth lie,
16and whenever they may turn unto the Lord, the veil<2571> is taken away.
17 And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty;
18 and we all, with unveiled<343> face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror,
to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

2571. kaluma kal'-oo-mah from 2572; a cover, i.e. veil:--vail.

Revelation 1:1
An un-veiling/revealing<602> of Jesus Christ, which gives to him, the God, to show to the bond-servants of Him
which-things is binding to be becoming in swiftness.
And He signifies-it, commissioning thru the messenger of Him, to the bond-servant of Him, John.

602. apokalupsis from 601; disclosure:--appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.
575. apo apo' a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near),
2572. kalupto kal-oop'-to akin to 2813 and 2928;
to cover up (literally or figuratively):--cover, hide.

 

[BABerean2]

That is referring to the OT Hebrews..........
The Cross and Resurrection of Jesus fulfilled it for them.

Yes, and those such as Isaiah are the people of God, just as we are.

The author of the Book of Hebrews revealed that their inheritance is the same as ours.

Read Revelation 11:15-18, and maybe your eyes will be "unveiled" about the future judgment of the dead.

.