Thief Verses Disprove Rapture

[Dale]

I will explain this unto you whether you accept it or not is a different matter. Jesus can only "surprise" like a late night thief, via a pre trib rapture, the 2nd coming will be a known time, ala 1260 days after the Beast Conquers Israel an THE MANY (Mediterranean Sea Coast Nations not in Europe)

So, why does Rev. 16, just before Vial #7's second coming have a quote in Vial #6 about Jesus coming like a thief ?(by surprise) ? For the same reason if you read Zech. 13, verses 1-5 are END TIME PROPHESY, it tells h0w Israel will be cleansed by a fountain. Verse 8-9 tells us how 1/3 of Israel will repent whilst 2/3 will refuse to do so and will perish/die. BUT.....in verses 6-7 we see a Prophesy about Jesus being betrayed by his own house of friends, what are these wounds? I was wounded in the house of my friends. then in vs. 7 it speaks about the Shepard's sheep scattering.

SEE IT? We have one prophesy which is an end time prophesy overall, and says in that end time Israel will be cleansed by a FOUNTAIN, then in verse 6 it drops a hint about the Messiah, so verses 6-7 are about Jesus 2000 years or so before the soon to come end time prophesy.

Guess what, people read Zech. 13 and because it has 2 verses about Jesus in it they get confused and say this was a prophesy ONLY ABOUT Jesus, but of course they are in error. Likewise, in Rev. 16 via the 6th Vial God is pretty much saying "I told you so didn't i?" So, when he announces the 6th Vial which brings deception to the masses, to send they all toward Armageddon to fight the God they have been hiding from for over three years in caves as the 6th Seal says (which is not areal event, but just points towards the Trumps which is God's ONLY Wrath, the 7 Trumps complete God's Wrath in full. So, as he announced the 6th Vial, God knows they are coming to try and defeat Him, like fools, s just before He defeats them at the 7th Vial via Jesus, He reminds us the readers of the bible that he had forewarned them this day would come. So, in a way God is mocking their UNBELIEF. He told them one day he was going tom send Jesus back like a thief, but they heeded not those warning, saying where is the promise of his coming etc. and thus when Jesus showed up pre 70th week (pre trib), that is when their fates were set in stone, they would either repent and probably become Martyrs, or they would g through God's full wrath. Once they missed the Wedding call the DOOR WAS SHUT.............No one else can enter, no one from the 70th week can enter the wedding. What you are doing is you see a verse (like in Zech. 13) and you do not reason out all the angles. you just jumped to a conclusion that fits your (erroneous in this case) understandings.

By the way, Rev. 19:11, Rev. 16:19 are the exact same event, the 2nd coming, as is Rev. 14 all except fir verse 14 which is the worlds very first Cinematic flashback, we see Jesus from upon a cloud Harvesting the Church in the Pre Trib. Rapture.

Fisherking: << Jesus can only "surprise" like a late night thief, via a pre trib rapture, the 2nd coming will be a known time, ala 1260 days after the Beast Conquers Israel … >>

[Jesus tells us:]
Mt. 24:30 “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
Mt. 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Mt. 24:32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig-tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.
Mt. 24:33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it [Or he] is near, right at the door.
Mt. 24:34 I tell you the truth, this generation [Or race] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
Mt. 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
Mt. 24:36 “No-one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. NIV

Jesus says that the highest and wisest angels in heaven will not know the day or hour of the Second Coming. If you doubt that Jesus is talking about the Second Coming here, just look at Matthew 24:30. Christ will appear in the sky, and “all nations will mourn.” That means that everyone will see the coming of Christ, not just the elect. Those who violently oppose Christianity will see His coming and mourn.

I have pointed out this discrepancy in rapture thinking before. Since they say that there is a fixed time between the rapture and the Second Coming, that means that anyone, even those who oppose Jesus Christ, could calculate the time of the Second Coming. The fixed time is usually seven years, although some say three and a half years. In the past, Rapturists weaseled out by saying the seven years (or whatever) isn’t exact, it’s just a general figure. They don’t see that a rapture, separate from the Second Coming, constantly conflicts with scripture.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I think there's a chance a lot of people may fall for the Anti-Christs lies because they are waiting around for the rapture.

There is never going to be some person as "thee" antiChrist

Anyone waiting for that to happen is also wasting their time. It made for many a fanciful dime store novel but such notions are not supported by scripture

We are supposed to "love our neighbors" i.e. people. If the antiChrist is an exception, then the law itself would have to be modified for that exclusion.

In addition we are advised to speak evil of no man. Titus 1:3. We should have an exception there too if there was to be some antiChrist man.

It's kind of ridiculous really. We know for a fact that the antiChrist is many spirits and that these disobedient spirits were around back in the days of the Apostle John

 

[Jermayn]

There is never going to be some person as "thee" antiChrist

Anyone waiting for that to happen is also wasting their time. It made for many a fanciful dime store novel but such notions are not supported by scripture

We are supposed to "love our neighbors" i.e. people. If the antiChrist is an exception, then the law itself would have to be modified for that exclusion.

In addition we are advised to speak evil of no man. Titus 1:3. We should have an exception there too if there was to be some antiChrist man.

It's kind of ridiculous really. We know for a fact that the antiChrist is many spirits and that these disobedient spirits were around back in the days of the Apostle John

My statement stands regardless of whether the Anti-Christ is a single government/religious figure or a government/group of people as a whole.

 

[JulieB67]

I believe the Scriptures provide a basis for the rapture as a distinct event from the Second Coming. Let me address your points:

Sorry but I don't see the Scriptures providing any kind of basis for a pretrib rapture -just the opposite. There's a reason both Christ and Paul give warnings about the deception/snare that's going to come over the entire world. Satan and his will be here playing Savior and that's why Christ says he comes at an hour most do not expect. They will be stating peace and safety and then boom, the true Christ returns. That is what the thief in the night analogy is all about.

1. "Thief in the Night" Imagery:
The "thief" analogy emphasizes the suddenness and unpredictability of Christ's return. 1 Thessalonians 5:2-4 states:
"For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

We can see that he states "the day of the Lord" because Paul will address this very same day in the next book. We need to read further. And we know that there were no chapters in the manuscripts so Paul is continuing the same subject from the end of 1st Thes 4

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

Sudden destruction, so no secret return, etc. And right before that they are stating peace and safety.

So anyone teaching that a pretrib rapture is imminent and could happen anytime is way off. Who is stating peace and safety right now? No one. Who ultimately brings that peace and safety?

Daniel 8:25 "And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

Again, both Christ and Paul give us warnings about not being deceived.

This passage distinguishes between believers, who are prepared, and unbelievers, who are caught off guard.

Those prepared are following this teaching by Paul -

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Wiles in the Greek is trickery. As Paul states Satan is disguised as an angel of light. And as I always state you don't don a disguise unless eyes are on you.

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

It doesn't say "every day" it states "stand in the evil day" Again, that's what it's all about. That's what the thief in the night entails. Most of the world will be entranced in this snare -stating peace and safety and then bam destruction the true Christ returns. At that point many will be in shock because they will have believed he had already returned. They were waiting (foolish Virgins, etc) But waiting for what? Paul states very clearly in 2nd Thes that that "day" The very same day in 1st Thes 5 shall not happen until the son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God. It's not going to happen. He wrote a second letter to clear up any confusion that his first letter might have caused. And goes on to give the very same warning that Christ does.

In the rapture, Christ comes for His church (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

Context is so important. The original subject starts at 1st Thes 4:13. It was about where their passed away loved ones were.

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

So we see he is returning with them at this point. He's not just coming for the church.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise them which are asleep.

The coming of the Lord -singular. The Second Coming. Paul is just trying to comfort them. He then continues

This distinction supports the idea of two events rather than one combined return.

And of course there is no distinction made between his church and the saints. The saints are the church.

I Corinthians 1:2 "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Romans 1:7 "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ."

 

[JulieB67]

I think there's a chance a lot of people may fall for the Anti-Christs lies because they are waiting around for the rapture.

This is true. That's why there's an apostasy coming and why we have the parables like the Foolish Virgins who are waiting for the Bridegroom. The timing is really that important. So important that Christ and Paul give out very strict warnings about deception.

 

[Fisherking]

This is true. That's why there's an apostasy coming and why we have the parables like the Foolish Virgins who are waiting for the Bridegroom. The timing is really that important. So important that Christ and Paul give out very strict warnings about deception.

2 Thess. 2 is not apostacy, its a Departure, and its not from the faith, but from this earth, now there is is a departure from the norms in the WHOLE WORLD, and of course many church's have been corrupted but isn't that now more the norm? Look at the RCC & Church of England in the 1500s torturing people etc. etc.

I wrote a blog 10 or so years ago showing that 2 Thess. 2 is the Rapture of the Church pre trib. citing Tommy Ice's work, its not a hard understanding, you guys/ladies just refuse to see he obvious.

 

[Dale]

2 Thess. 2 is not apostacy, its a Departure, and its not from the faith, but from this earth, now there is is a departure from the norms in the WHOLE WORLD, and of course many church's have been corrupted but isn't that now more the norm? Look at the RCC & Church of England in the 1500s torturing people etc. etc.

I wrote a blog 10 or so years ago showing that 2 Thess. 2 is the Rapture of the Church pre trib. citing Tommy Ice's work, its not a hard understanding, you guys/ladies just refuse to see he obvious.

Fisherking, I assume that you are a Protestant. Do you realize that neither Martin Luther nor John Calvin, nor any other Protestant reformer believed in a rapture? Or ever heard of the idea, for that matter? No, it is not obvious from the Bible.

Since I have John Calvin’ Institutes of Christian Theology in my computer, I did a search for the word “rapture.” It does not appear.

“The underlying theology of the Rapture is one of fear rather than love. ”

“I say the Rapture is such a heresy. The Rapture relieves humans of thinking about more than themselves ...”

These quotes are from an article,

The Rapture: Does it square with Lutheran theology?​

Source
https://www.livinglutheran.org/2005/04/rapture/

 

[Fisherking]

Fisherking: << Jesus can only "surprise" like a late night thief, via a pre trib rapture, the 2nd coming will be a known time, ala 1260 days after the Beast Conquers Israel … >>

I read your reply and see you dodged all my points, rather sad when defeated on a point you take cover, I do not get that, just debate the point, that is how we come to the truth by sword fighting so to speak, via the word of the sword, that quickens us. NOTICE: I meet every point head on because I have answers brother.

[Jesus tells us:]
Mt. 24:30 “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
Mt. 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

You do not understand this verse as per the timing my friend, will you listen or dodge again? For starters you conflate the 2nd coming here with the Rapture in verses 36-51 or so. And you seemingly think verse 29 (I assume) proves we go through the tribulation because God gathers the Elect from the four corners of Heaven. I will add verse 29 & 30 below to show why its not what many think, and I will reference Zech. 14:1-3 to show why there has to be major JUMPS in prophesy timelines. And by the way, many see these two verses below and argue the DOTL is only ONE DAY, because it says IMMEDIATELY AFTER, but they misconstrue the two verses very badly.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days[BEGIN as the Rev. 8 Asteroid HITS in Trumps 1-3] shall the sun be darkened(Trump 4), and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken(Satan is cast down at the 1260 middle of the week events):

30 And then(1260 days LATER) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Now read Zech. 14:1-2 it says the DOTL arrives, and in verse 2 Jerusalem will be conquered, now watch verse 3 how it JUMPS 1260 days just like Matt. 24:29-30. Why? Because prophesy would take up a whole library if God added in every event over 2000 years on every prophetic utterance.

Zech. 14:3 Then shall the Lord go forth(1260 days LATER just like ABOVE), and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives........

So, lets get to your overall point now that I have shown we have jumps on TIMELINES from one verse to another. Lets discuss Matt. 24 overall, because we can not solve the overall issues unless we dissect the chapter in full.

Jesus says that the highest and wisest angels in heaven will not know the day or hour of the Second Coming.

Before that I will overcome the thrust of your confusion.

The whole "NO MAN KNOWS THE DAY NOR THE HOUR" is not about the 2nd coming, its about the Pre Tribulation Rapture that ends the Summer Harvest at the Feast of Trumps. The Beast is a KNOWN ENTITY !! He rules for how many days as a Beast when he Conquers Israel? 1260 days then Jesus RETURNS to kill him and all his minions, if anyone living in the 70th week can count to 1260 then they will be able to say THIS MAN (Beast) conquered Israel on this certain day, and since has only has 1260 days to rule before Jesus shows up to wipe him out, so I will just add 1260 days to the day he conquered Israel on and have the answer to when the 2nd Coming is.

Its simple math my friend, you are proving my point this can only be about a Pre Trib. Rapture, the 2nd coming is a KNOWN TIME, its 1260 days after the Beast conquers Israel or 2520 days after he signs am Agreement with Israel. Which proves the whole DAY NOR HOUR reference can only be about a pre trib. rapture.

I have to go somewhere, so I can not get into the weeds right now on Matt. 24 in general, but suffice it tom say that Jesus telling the Disciples the Temple would be destroyed, led them to ask Three Questions, WHEN would this happen (Temples Destruction) and what will be the sign of your coming AND the end of the world (as they knew it......meaning when is the Promised Kingdom Age)

So, not getting into the details too far, verses 4-6 is about 70 AD only and verses 7-8 is merely showing WHY verses 4-6 can not be THE END by Jesus giving a DEMONSTRSTION to things that must come first (hence the whole "The end is not yet"). Then we return to the Disciples time on earth, and in verses 9-13 we see Jesus explaining how they would be betrayed by False Prophets (the Zeus, Jupiter types will cry to Rome about losing their flocks to Christianity) who will make sure they are killed, then Jesus warns in vs. 13 for them to be FAITHFUL until the END [of their lives] then in vs. 14 we see when the Rapture of the church will come, when the Gospel has been preached unto the whole world, so the Disciples knew they would never see this Rapture, unless they could take the Gospel to China, India and the Scythians (modern day Russia). Then we see the 70th week troubles in verses 15-29-30 and Jesus return in vs. 31.

You see Jesus only came via his ministry unto the lost sheep of Israel. So he gave Israel's plight as a nation overall first. We will see 1/3 of Israel repent (Zech. 13:8-9) just before the DOTL arrives in Zech. 14:1. Thus they are now the ELECT on earth right? So, yes Jesus gathers THE ELECT from the four corners of earth which might be the Martyrs and the Jews or that could mean the Elect IN HEAVEN for 7 years (Marrying the Lamb) who return with him in vs. 31. Either way, it never proves that there is no Pre Trip. Rapture as you assume, AT ALL. Now Jesus knows some Jews will be a part of his Bride, including his Disciples, so he has to also tell their plight, here is where the Parable of the Fig Tree verses come in. It is indeed only about the 2nd coming which we saw in verses 30-31 but verses 36-51 is about the Pre Trib. Rapture. The problem is you added a verse to the parable, its ONLY verses 32-35. I googled this to make sure I was not in error. Come on man, you can not do stuff like that. See the google answer below !!

The parable of the fig tree in Matthew is found in Matthew 24:32-35, which consists of four verses.

So, take away vs. 36 and lets continue, you even confused me for a second. As I was saying, verses 32-35 is not about the Rapture and the DAY NOR HOUR VERSE, it is about the 2nd coming. Jesus says so. Then in verses 36 on he tells about the Pre Trib. Rapture, no man know the day nor the hour, it will be as in the days of Noah where they were buying and selling and oblivious unto what was soon to come, then the rain came............BOOM..........if it was the 2nd coming as you wrongly assume here, how could they not know what was coming? They have been hiding in caves, getting hit by plague after plague, Trumps 1-4 then Woes 1, 2 and 3 which are Trumps 5, 6 and 7. The Seals are Not Judgements but mere Prophetic Utterances of the soon to come Judgment Trumps. All the Wrath/Judgments come from the 7 Trumps, the 7th Trump gives us the 3rd Woe which is the 7 Vials.

Also, when it says one will be TAKEN and one will be LEFT, that is the Church, Jesus told us that only 5 of the 10 Virgins will make the Wedding Call !! BOOM. Half of the Churches 2 billion people are not true Christians of God, and thus without the holy spirit seal they are not going to make it.

 

[Dale]

I read your reply and see you dodged all my points, rather sad when defeated on a point you take cover, I do not get that, just debate the point, that is how we come to the truth by sword fighting so to speak, via the word of the sword, that quickens us. NOTICE: I meet every point head on because I have answers brother.


You do not understand this verse as per the timing my friend, will you listen or dodge again? For starters you conflate the 2nd coming here with the Rapture in verses 36-51 or so. And you think verse 29 I assume proves we go through the tribulation because God gathers the Elect from the four corners of Heaven. I will add verse 29 & 30 below to show why its not what many think, and I will reference Zech. 14:1-3 to show why there has to be major JUMPS in prophesy timelines. And by the way, many see these two verses below and argue the DOTL is only ONE DAY, because it says IMMEIATELY AFTER, but they misconstrue the two verses very badly.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days[BEGIN as the Rev. 8 Asteroid HITS in Trumps 1-3] shall the sun be darkened(Trump 4), and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken(Satan is cast down at the 1260 middle of the week events):

30 And then(1260 days LATER) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Now read Zech. 14:1-2 it says the DOTL arrives, and in verse 2 Jerusalem will be conquered, now watch verse 3 how it JUMPS 1260 days just like Matt. 24:29-30. Why? Because prophesy would take up a whole library if God added in every event over 2000 years.

Zech. 14:3 Then shall the Lord go forth(1260 days LATER just like ABOVE), and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives........

So, lets get to your overall point now that I have shown we have jumps on TIMELINES from one verse to another. Lets discuss Matt. 24 overall, because we can not solve the overall issues unless we dissect the chapter in full.


Before that I will overcome the thrust of your confusion.

The whole NO MAN KNOWS THE DAY NOR THE HOUR is not about the 2nd coming, its abut the Pre Tribulation Rapture that ends the Summer Harvest at the Feast of Trumps. The Beast is a KNOWN ENTITY !! He rules for h9w many days as a Beast (Conquers Israel) ? 1260 days then Jesus RETURNS to kill hem and all his minions, if anyone can count t 1260 living in the 70th week they will say THIS MAN (Beast) conquered Israel on this day, and he has 1260 days before Jesus shows up to wipe him out, so let me add 1260 days to the day he conquered Israel on and have the answer to when the 2nd Coming is. Its simple math my friend, you are proving my point this can only be about a Pre Trib. Rapture, the 2nd coming is a KNOWN TIME, its 1260 days after the Beast conquers Israel or 2520 days after he signs am Agreement with Israel. Which proves the whole DAY NOR HOUR reference can only be about a pre trib. rapture.

I have to go somewhere, so I can not get into the weeds right now on Matt. 24 in general, but suffice it tom say that Jesus telling the Disciples the Temple would be destroyed, led them to ask Three Questions, WHEN would this happen (Temples Destruction) and what will be the sign of your coming AND the end of the world (as the knew it......meaning when is the Promised Kingdom Age)

So, not getting into the details verses 4-6 is about 70 AD only verses 7-8 is merely showing WHY verses 4-6 can not be THE END by Jesus giving a DEMONSTRSTION to things that must come first. Then we return to the Disciples time on earth, and in verses 9-13 we see Jesus explaining how they would be betrayed by False Prophets (the Zeus, Jupiter types will cry to Rome about losing their flocks to Christianity) who will make sure they are killed, the Jesus warns in vs. 13 for them to be FATHFUL until the END [of their lives] then in vs. 14 we see when the Rapture of the church will come, when the Gospel has been preached unto the whole world, so the Disciples knew they would never see this Rapture, unless they could take the Gospel to China, India and the Scythians (modern day Russia). Then we see the 70th week troubles in verses 15-29-30 and Jesus return in vs. 31.

You see Jesus only came via his ministry unto the lost sheep of Israel. So he gave Israel's plight as a nation overall first. We will see 1/3 of Israel repent (Zech. 13:8-9) just before the DOTL arrives in Zech. 14:1. Thus they are now the ELECT on earth right? So, yes Jesus gathers THE ELECT from the four corners of earth which might be the Martyrs and the Jews or that could mean the Elect IN HEAVEN for 7 years to return with him in vs. 31. Either way, it never proves no Pre Trip. Rapture as you assume, AT ALL. Now Jesus knows some Jews will be a part of his Bride, including his Disciples, so he has to also tell their plight, here is where the Parable of the Fig Tree verses come in. Its is indeed only about the 2nd coming which we saw in verses 30-31 but verses 36-51 is about the Pre Trib. Rapture. The problem is you added a verse to the parable, its ONLY verses 32-35. I googled this to make sure I was not in error. Come on man, you can not do stuff like that. See the answer below !!

The parable of the fig tree in Matthew is found in Matthew 24:32-35, which consists of four verses.

So, take away vs. 36 and lets continue, you even confused me for a second. As I was saying, verses 32-35 is not about the Rapture and the DAY NOR HOUR VERSE, it is about the 2nd coming. Jesus says so. Then in verses 36 on he tells about the Pre Trib. Rapture, no man know the day nor the hour, it will be as in the days of Noah where they were buying and selling and oblivious unto what was soon to come, then the rain came............BOOM..........if it was the 2nd coming as you wrongly assume, how could they not know what was coming? They have been hiding in caves, getting hit by plague after plague, Trumps 1-4 then Woes 1 2 and 3 which are Trumps 5,6 and 7. The Seals are Not Judgements but mere Prophetic Utterances of the soon to come Judgment Trumps. All the Wrath/Judgments come from the 7 Trumps, the 7th Trump gives us the 3rd Woe which is the 7 Vials.

Also, when it says one will be TAKEN and one will be LEFT, that is the Church, Jesus told us that only 5 of the 10 Virgins will make the Wedding Call !! BOOM. Half of the Churches 2 billion people are not true Christians of God, without the holy spirit seal they are not going to make it.

Where did the doctrine of a “rapture” separate from the Second Coming come from?

The following is from the Routledge Encyclopedia of Protestantism. This can be downloaded.

From the article on Darby, John Nelson (1800–1882):

“Darby’s major innovation is the DOCTRINE of the secret RAPTURE of the church. This teaching divides the second coming of Christ into two stages. In the first stage, Christ will come to earth before a seven-year period of tribulation (cf. Daniel 9:26–27) to take believers to be with him.”

The article on Fundamentalism tells us how this previously unknown belief spread in the early 20th century.

“Scofield’s Bible became a best seller. Its copious notes with their explanations of how God interacted with humanity in each dispensation governed fundamentalist views of the modern world for decades. … Its notes presented the novel view that the church was a parenthesis in God’s plan and might be withdrawn (“raptured”) at any time.”

From the article on Kingdom of God:

“Reading Jesus’ teachings about the Kingdom in a literal way, Scofield concluded that Jesus believed that the Kingdom would follow shortly after his resurrection. Instead, God inserted a great parenthesis into prophetic history that would end with the Rapture.”

Under the heading Antichrist Belief in Protestantism: From the Reformation to the Twentieth Century, the Routledge Encyclopedia of Protestantism comments on on how “rapture” and other Dispensational beliefs have been spread.

“These beliefs were promulgated not only by the traditional methods—sermons, touring evangelists, prophecy conferences—but increasingly by Televangelists, mass-market paperbacks, movies such as The Rapture (1991) and The Omega Code (1999), and even Internet websites and chat rooms. Hal Lindsey’s The Late Great Planet Earth (1970), a popularization of dispensationalism, was the U.S. nonfiction bestseller of the 1970s, selling millions of copies worldwide.”

In other words, “rapture” is among the confusing jumble of beliefs spread by televangelists, movies, and paperback books.

 

[JulieB67]

just refuse to see he obvious.

No, the obvious is that we see the Greek word and it's true meaning. It has nothing to do with a removal from the earth at all. It's falling away, forsaking, departing from the truth and faith. The Greek word apostastion even means a separation/a divorce,

The obvious also would be to line up other verses that agree with it -

Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, hiving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

Hebrews 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."

I Peter 3:17 "Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness."

Even going to the Greek we can get a clear picture from more than one word which are derived from one another which can then leave no doubt of it's meaning

Greek word in the Strong's -646 apostasia- defection from the truth :-falling away, forsake

The very next word is Greek word apostasion -something separative, a divorcement which is derived from Greek word 868. It has nothing to do with a pretrib rapture. It is forsaking/departing the living God as noted in Hebrews 3:12

, its not a hard understanding

I don't find Christ or Paul's teachings on the subject hard at all. As long as we take things chapter by chapter and book by book so we don't lose the context/subjects.

citing Tommy Ice's work

I'd rather follow God's word, not man's.

 

[JulieB67]

“Scofield’s Bible became a best seller. Its copious notes with their explanations of how God interacted with humanity in each dispensation governed fundamentalist views of the modern world for decades. … Its notes presented the novel view that the church was a parenthesis in God’s plan and might be withdrawn (“raptured”) at any time.”

Yes, the Scofield Bible following Darby really pushed this doctrine along. My father had a Scofield Bible and I grew up in a pretrib teaching church. It was only many years later that I saw it was not biblical.

 

[timothyu]

Human 'incentive' gives us many doctrines of man. God gave us 'incentive' in the form of the Gospel of the Kingdom. Unlike human doctrines, it is not about what's in it for self, but about servitude to God and fellow man. The rapture is selfish.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, the Scofield Bible following Darby really pushed this doctrine along. My father had a Scofield Bible and I grew up in a pretrib teaching church. It was only many years later that I saw it was not biblical.

That the church, the body of Christ and the center of God's plan for creation--to prepare a bride for his Son (Eph 5:30-32), would be a "parenthesis" in God's plan is blasphemous.

 

[Fisherking]

No, the obvious is that we see the Greek word and it's true meaning. It has nothing to do with a removal from the earth at all. It's falling away, forsaking, departing from the truth and faith. The Greek word apostastion even means a separation/a divorce,

The obvious also would be to line up other verses that agree with it -

Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, hiving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

Hebrews 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."

I Peter 3:17 "Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness."

Even going to the Greek we can get a clear picture from more than one word which are derived from one another which can then leave no doubt of it's meaning

Greek word in the Strong's -646 apostasia- defection from the truth :-falling away, forsake

The very next word is Greek word apostasion -something separative, a divorcement which is derived from Greek word 868. It has nothing to do with a pretrib rapture. It is forsaking/departing the living God as noted in Hebrews 3:12


I don't find Christ or Paul's teachings on the subject hard at all. As long as we take things chapter by chapter and book by book so we don't lose the context/subjects.



I'd rather follow God's word, not man's.

I only been called to preach 40 plus years with a dedicated workload of studies under my belt. QUESTION. reread the whole passage, where at any point is the passage speaking about "Faith"? Nowhere, but in the very FIRST VERSE it is spoking about a Gathering unto the Lord, and THAT is why Paul tells them not to fear. My blog on this destroyed that thesis years ago.

Is the Falling Away a misunderstanding brought on by two vindictive churches 500 years ago?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the end (now), as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the True Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy(Departure) comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Tommy Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth and the Anti-Christ is brought forth before the wrath of God falls. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that has been around for 1500 some odd years.

-----------------------------------------------------

I do deep dives in Greek and Hebrew sister.

 

[Clare73]

I only been called to preach 40 plus years with a dedicated workload of studies under my belt. QUESTION. reread the whole passage, where at any point is the passage speaking about "Faith"? Nowhere, but in the very FIRST VERSE it is spoking about a Gathering unto the Lord, and THAT is why Paul tells them not to fear. My blog on this destroyed that thesis years ago.
Is the Falling Away a misunderstanding brought on by two vindictive churches 500 years ago?
I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the end (now), as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the True Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy(Departure) comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Tommy Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12).

So?

How many times must it be used of the faith before it is correct?

In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).
This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

Correct. . .a "departure" or "departing" from the faith.

 

[timothyu]

Is the Falling Away a misunderstanding brought on by two vindictive churches 500 years ago?

Amateurs. The true falling away was when the human 'church' re-aligned itself with the world of man (Roman Empire) over 1700 years ago, and abandoned the Kingdom in order to do so. Even they knew we couldn't have it both ways. Two apposing cultures cannot become one.

 

[Fisherking]

How many times must it be used of the faith before it is correct?

Read the CONTEXT, that tells you what the Departure is about. They changed the word from Departure to Falling Away, 500 years ago to take a swipe at the RCC. Those two churches were nothing more than political beasts at the time, torturing people etc. etc. The context shows Departure [of the church] as THE REASON they are not to fear, if they still had to go through the 70th week why would Paul tell them an untruth, "fear not"? Makes no sense. Paul is explaining unto them something he had already told them when he was with them , hence the vagueness

2 Thess. 2 Now we beseech(Ask Urgently) you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (Everything revolves around Jesus coming, NOT FAITH)

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled(Why? Because of Jesus' COMNNG), neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand(God's Wrath, or the DOTL, so hes saying do not be troubled by anyone who tells you the DOTL or Christ is at hand THEN he tells them WHY the DOTL can never come upon them, WATCH BELOW).

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away(DEPARTURE FIRST of the Church) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

{{{ So, BOTH the Departure of the Church AND the Anti-Christ have to happen FIRST or before the DOTL or God's Wrath can fall at the 1260 middle of the week events. The Wrath of God is the fulcrum point here, not the A.C. That is why Paul says do not fear that the Day of Christ or DOTL is at hand then he goes into why you can not be in the DOTL until the Church Departs AND the AC shows up at the beginning of the 70th week, the DOTL happens in the Middle of the 70th week, so QUIT FEARING !! Simple stuff really. }}}

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (BOOM, this is why its so vague, Paul's letters had established previous facts and thus he could write in brief form instead of long form at times. Telling them to remember what he said before, leaving us out of the loop)

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth(Binds) will let(Bind), until he be taken out of the way.

{{{ So, the Holy Spirit binds Satan's Anti-Christ/Little Horn/Beast from coming forth via his Church, once we are raptured the Holy Spirits BINDING will stop }}}

Correct. . .a "departure" or "departing" from the faith.

No, its the Pre Trib. Rapture, that is what is in the very first verse.

 

[Fisherking]

Amateurs. The true falling away was when the human 'church' re-aligned itself with the world of man (Roman Empire) over 1700 years ago, and abandoned the Kingdom in order to do so. Even they knew we couldn't have it both ways. Two apposing cultures cannot become one.

You have zero understanding of prophesy my friend.

 

[timothyu]

You have zero understanding of prophesy my friend.

The falling away is not from the religion, it is about falling away from the Will of God.

 

[Fisherking]

Yes, the Scofield Bible following Darby really pushed this doctrine along. My father had a Scofield Bible and I grew up in a pretrib teaching church. It was only many years later that I saw it was not biblical.

Paul, Jesus and God pushed it........you do understand that for like 12-1300 years until the printing press men were told what they should think by other men high up in these churches right. You act like everyone had a bible and thus had the ability to study it, but thy didn't, thus Martin Luther's reformation was about getting around these shoddy church positions. So, up until the mid 1500s most people had no way to study the bible, then they had to overcome the indoctrination by these RCC & Church of England types.

The Rapture is very easy, anyone whop can not see it I will not trust very much on End Time Eschatology. I can explain the book of Revelation in one post, and all of Daniel 9, 11 & 12, that is much harder, the Rapture is easy, nothing else can fit all the timelies.