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trophy33

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Just curious, how does one know they are evil things if not for the Law? How did Paul know what things were evil if not for their inclusion in the Law? If not God's commandments, who then is the arbiter of what is evil and what is not?
Conscience.

And rationality - you can see if what you do is harming others, if you are not morally blind. "Do not to do others what you do not want to be done to you" is quite an effective rule.

Also, the fruit of the Spirit - love, peace, self-control...

It is not effective to live according to some obsolete, ancient iron age rigid set of rules meant for a small, isolated and primitive society, today. We need to apply love, peace, justice, mercy etc into our various environments and situations that are different in many ways, more complex and constantly changing through history. So we need to be flexible and build our ethics on general and Christian principles.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Pro 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

And we can connect the dots through the Scriptures...

Rom 6: 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the [a]gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 John 3:4 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
James 2:11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

I see why God wrote His law in our hearts and minds instead of allowing us to decide what is righteous Psa 119:172 and Truth Psa 119:151 because our righteousness and truth is not the path that leads to Christ....

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Loving our neighbor is also keeping the commandments

Rom 13:9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” [b]“You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

The fruits of the Spirit are also from the commandments-

Can we love God by worshipping other gods? or profaning Him Eze 22:26 Can we have peace by coveting what our neighbor has? Breaking the commandments is sin and lawlessness which does not bring peace or righteousness Isa 48:18 nor does it keep us connected to Christ abiding in His love and only through Him can we bear much fruit.

1 John 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

John 15: 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. 9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

1 John 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
 
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Godsunworthyservant

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Conscience.

And rationality - you can see if what you do is harming others, if you are not morally blind. "Do not to do others what you do not want to be done to you" is quite an effective rule.

Also, the fruit of the Spirit - love, peace, self-control...

It is not effective to live according to some obsolete, ancient iron age rigid set of rules meant for a small, isolated and primitive society, today. We need to apply love, peace, justice, mercy etc into our various environments and situations that are different in many ways, more complex and constantly changing through history. So we need to be flexible and build our ethics on general and Christian principles.
Trust your own conscience is the way of the world. Atheists are by and large moral people based on their own conscience. As a Christian, I believe that we need the commandments of God and the teachings of Christ to guide our conscience. You say we should "build our ethics on general and Christian principles". I say we should base our ethics solely on Christian principles and they include God's law. You mention love, peace, justice, mercy and self control. These are also part of those "Christian principles" to which you refer and I heartily recommend them, as did Christ. You say "you can see if what you are doing is harming others". The Bible does clearly state that harming others is one of those things that we should avoid, but what about those sins that seemingly cause no harm to others. Homosexuality comes to mind. God spoke against it and made it punishable by death. Yet, is there any real harm to others in a consensual homosexual relationship? So, while it's a factor, harm to others isn't the only factor in the laws of God. What you espouse is strikingly similar to what we used to call "Secular Humanism".
 
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trophy33

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Trust your own conscience is the way of the world. Atheists are by and large moral people based on their own conscience. As a Christian, I believe that we need the commandments of God and the teachings of Christ to guide our conscience.
Conscience is not created by the world. Conscience is in all of us, regardless our religious beliefs. Yes, an atheist, who listens to his conscience, can live a more ethical life than a Christian, who ignores his conscience but keeps the Old Testament to the letter (and tries to burn witches, to stone adulterers, judges everybody for what they eat or wear, hates his enemies, owns slaves etc.).

God's commandments can hardly be against Christian conscience. If they were, I would question and carefully investigated them, whether they are really from God.
 
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Clare73

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Conscience is not created by the world. Conscience is in all of us, regardless our religious beliefs. Yes, an atheist, who listens to his conscience, can live a more ethical life than a Christian, who ignores his conscience but keeps the Old Testament to the letter (and tries to burn witches, to stone adulterers, judges everybody for what they eat or wear, hates his enemies, owns slaves etc.).

God's commandments can hardly be against Christian conscience. If they were, I would question and carefully investigated them, whether they are really from God.
This is going to cause a ruckus, but slavery (buying, selling and use of slaves) is not immoral (Lev 25:44-46). Man stealing is immoral.

Paul did not forbid Philemon to own his slave Onesimus.
 
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trophy33

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This is going to cause a ruckus, but slavery (buying, selling and use of slaves) is not immoral (Lev 25:44-46). Man stealing is immoral.

Paul did not forbid Philemon to own his slave Onesimus.
Owning another human being and forcing him/her to work for you like some animal is immoral. That is why Christianity and Christian Europe evolved to be against it. USA followed later, too, together with all other developed countries.
 
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guevaraj

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God's commandments can hardly be against Christian conscience. If they were, I would question and carefully investigated them, whether they are really from God.
Brother, happy Sabbath, which began this Friday, April 4, 2025, at 12:00 p.m. EDT! The popular Christian conscience does not obey God's Sabbath, corrected from human tradition since Joshua in Hebrews, chapter 4.

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. GOD ANNOUNCED THIS THROUGH DAVID MUCH LATER in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now IF JOSHUA HAD SUCCEEDED IN GIVING THEM THIS REST, GOD WOULD NOT HAVE SPOKEN ABOUT ANOTHER DAY of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:1-11 NLT)​

The human tradition of the Sabbath since Joshua of getting the days of the week wrong, because the Sabbath is half a day before the seventh day of the week in Jerusalem, is acknowledged in the following video, explaining how God in the above passage by "oath" prevented Joshua from entering the Sabbath by making him keep the true seventh day of the week for 40 years with manna, which is half a day too late to enter the Sabbath near Jerusalem as punishment for their disobedience.


United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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Clare73

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Owning another human being and forcing him/her to work for you like some animal is immoral.
Not in the Bible. . .no more immoral than poverty, sickness or disability, all of which are undesirable, but not immoral.

Legislation for ownership of slaves, Hebrew and non-Hebrew, is given in Lev 25:39-46.

When he ran away, Paul required Philemon's Christian slave, Onesimus, to return to Philemon, and he did not require the Christian Philemon to free his Christian slave, Onesimus, though Paul highly recommended it.
That is why Christianity and Christian Europe evolved to be against it. USA followed later, too, together with all other developed countries.
The evolvement against it has nothing to do with immorality and everything to do with undesirability, as in the undesirability of poverty, sickness or disability.
 
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trophy33

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Brother, happy Sabbath, which began this Friday, April 4, 2025, at 12:00 p.m. EDT!
I do not keep any Sabbaths. I may go shopping tomorrow and I may take public transport tomorrow. I will use internet, phone services, electricity etc. I do not live in an iron age society in a desert to keep their rules and habits.

The popular Christian conscience does not obey God's Sabbath, corrected from human tradition since Joshua in Hebrews, chapter 4.
There is no God's Sabbath, only the Sabbath of the Mosaic Law we are not to obey.

And the book to Hebrews is not written to Christians from Gentiles, but to Hebrews who wanted to return back to Judaism from Christianity, so it is not exactly for me.
 
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trophy33

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Not in the Bible. . .no more immoral than poverty, sickness or disability, all of which are undesirable, but not immoral.

Legislation for ownership of slaves, Hebrew and non-Hebrew, is given in Lev 25:39-46.

When he ran away, Paul required Philemon's Christian slave, Onesimus, to return to Philemon, and he did not require the Christian Philemon to free his Christian slave, Onesimus, though Paul highly recommended it.

The evolvement against it has nothing to do with immorality and everything to do with undesirability, as in the undesirability of poverty, sickness or disability.
Bible is not dictated by God, Bible is not perfect, Bible is not exhaustive and Bible has its cultural limitations. The usefulness of some Paul's letters to the 1st century churches is not our definitive limitation. Paul not mentioning something and even more Leviticus can hardly be used against our conscience.

And Christianity is not frozen in the 1st century, it can grow as the conscience of the society also got more sensitive, compared to the frequently brutal Roman society. As Paul was much more ethical and loving than the general Roman society, he could be also much more ethical and loving than our society, if he lived today. We simply cannot ignore his cultural context he lived in.
 
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jas3

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But there's another player, the body of Christ

If God gave important truths to the body of Christ and then allowed them to be lost, he would be the person that lit a lamp and then allowed someone else to put a bucket over it

Exactly. Is the Church "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic," or not? Is it "the pillar and foundation of truth," or not? Did our Lord promise that the gates of hell wouldn't prevail against it, or did He not?

It would seem that some would answer in the negative, as if we were left to reconstruct the true faith from the Old Testament.
 
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guevaraj

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There is no God's Sabbath, only the Sabbath of the Mosaic Law we are not to obey.
Brother, people misunderstand Paul's use of the word "Spirit" in replacing the law with the "Spirit". Paul is not referring to the Holy Spirit, as the translators forced contrary to context, but to Jesus as our role model of obedience to what is written in stone, as superior in showing us how to obey the Ten Commandments than having only what was written in stone. Paul tells us that his use of the word "Spirit" refers to Jesus, not the Holy Spirit, in the context of his message about replacing the law with the "Spirit".

We are confident of all this because of our great trust in God through Christ (as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror). It is not that we think we are qualified to do anything on our own (like excusing our disobedience of the Ten Commandments as coming from the Holy Spirit). Our qualification comes from God (sending us Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror). He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror). This is a covenant not of the letter (Ten Commandments), but of the Spirit (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror and not the Holy Spirit used as an excuse to disobey the Ten Commandments when Jesus obeyed them). The letter ends in death (sabotaged by Judaism to not remove sin); but the Spirit (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror) gives life (the removal of Judaism's disobedience to obey completely the Ten Commandments). The old way (God's "order" by the prophet Moses), with letters etched in stone (Ten Commandments), led to death (sabotaged by Judaism to not remove sin), though it began with such glory (leading to righteousness) that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God (which is His righteousness expressed in the Ten Commandments), even though the brightness was already fading away (Judaism's disobedience to the Ten Commandments). Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory under the new way (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror who obeyed completely the Ten Commandments for us to do likewise), now that the Holy (added by the translators) Spirit (not the Holy Spirit but Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror) gives life? If the old way (written letters etched in stone), which brings condemnation (Judaism disobeys the Ten Commandments by replacing them with human traditions), was glorious (leading to righteousness), how much more glorious (leading to righteousness) is the new way (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror), which makes us right with God (removes sin)! In fact, that first glory (which led to righteousness) was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory (leading to righteousness) of the new way (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror). So if the old way (written letters etched in stone), which has been replaced, was glorious (led to righteousness), how much more glorious (leading to righteousness) is the new (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror), which remains forever! Since this new way (of imaging as in a mirror the model "Spirit" of Jesus, rather than Judaism's disobedience) gives us such confidence, we can be very bold (learning to use God's name properly, which Judaism does not). We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory (of God's righteousness), even though it was destined to fade away (by Judaism's growing disobedience to the Ten Commandments). But the people’s minds were hardened (to disobey the Ten Commandments), and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth (of their disobedience by replacing God's Commandments with their own human traditions). And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ (as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror). Yes, even today when they read Moses’ writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand (they disobey the Ten Commandments by substituting them with human traditions). But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. For the Lord is the Spirit (Jesus is the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror who obeyed the Ten Commandments as our example and Paul is not referring to the Holy Spirit as an excuse to disobey the Ten Commandments), and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (from sin and not from God's Ten Commandments). So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord (in obeying completely the Ten Commandments by removing Judaism's disobedience). And the Lord—who is the Spirit (Jesus is the model "Spirit" Paul is telling us to image as in a mirror and not the Holy Spirit, whose job is to tell us things through prophets and remind us of Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror)—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image. (2 Corinthians 3:4-18 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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trophy33

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Brother, people misunderstand Paul's use of the word "Spirit" in replacing the law with the "Spirit". Paul is not referring to the Holy Spirit...
I did not mention anything about the Holy Spirit. When you reply to my post, react to my post.
 
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Godsunworthyservant

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Conscience is not created by the world. Conscience is in all of us, regardless our religious beliefs. Yes, an atheist, who listens to his conscience, can live a more ethical life than a Christian, who ignores his conscience but keeps the Old Testament to the letter (and tries to burn witches, to stone adulterers, judges everybody for what they eat or wear, hates his enemies, owns slaves etc.).

God's commandments can hardly be against Christian conscience. If they were, I would question and carefully investigated them, whether they are really from God.
Conscience is not created by the world. Conscience is in all of us, regardless our religious beliefs. Yes, an atheist, who listens to his conscience, can live a more ethical life than a Christian, who ignores his conscience but keeps the Old Testament to the letter (and tries to burn witches, to stone adulterers, judges everybody for what they eat or wear, hates his enemies, owns slaves etc.).

God's commandments can hardly be against Christian conscience. If they were, I would question and carefully investigated them, whether they are really from God.
Oh, my. A thread about Sabbath worship has turned into a diatribe suggesting that those who believe in the law are trying to "burn witches, stone adulterers, judge everybody for what they eat or wear, hates his enemies and owns slaves". First, let me say that as a Christian, I believe first and foremost in the teachings of Christ as they apply to the law (or any other subject for that matter. Christ did make some modifications to some points of the law and clarified others. I don't know where to start. First, as to burning witches, stoning adulterers and judging everybody for what they eat or wear. These actions are all judgements and Christ clearly modified the law to indicate that judgement was no longer our responsibility. As a matter of fact He warned against it in Matthew 7:1-5 where He says; "1Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." In John 8:15-16 He says "15Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. 16And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me." So, Christ not only taught us that we should not judge others and said that even He judges no man, He also noted that judgement is God's. As to the point of burning witches, for clarification the Old Testament Law did not prescribe burning of witches but rather stoning was the death penalty that He commanded. In Leviticus 20:27we read; ""A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist, shall surely be put to death; they shall be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them". Further witches were not a concept in those days. Witch and witchcraft are Middle Ages English concepts. The earliest recorded use of the word "witch" in the English language is found in the laws of AElfred, dating to about 890, where it refers to women who are "accustomed to receiving enchanters and sorceresses and witches" The translations that mention witches are using this Middle Ages concept to describe what in the Old Testament referred to necromancers, sorcerers and the divination of "familiar spirits" (as in "Witch of Endor"). As for their burning at the stake, that was a part of the witch hunts and trials that followed the "witch" mania from those times. At the time of these happenings, there is no evidence that any of those people who were burned, drowned or otherwise executed were even practicing any of the "witchcraft" of which they were accused. Thus the term witch hunt has come to symbolize the hunting of something that doesn't exist. While witchcraft in those days were trumped up charges, there is an actual modern practice of "witchcraft" which gained popularity in the 1940s. According to Helen Berger of Brandeis University "Wicca, an alternative minority religion whose adherents, regardless of gender, call themselves witches, began in the U.K. in the 1940s. Wicca and Witchcraft are part of the larger contemporary pagan movement, which includes druids and heathens among others. All these spiritual paths, as pagans refer to them, base their practices on pre-Christian religions and cultures. I believe as Christians we should point out that these practices are sinful but again we shouldn't judge much less burn or stone anyone.

As for the stoning of adulterers, that is an Old Testament law. The point is one of the things Christ modified is that we as humans are no longer responsible for judgement. We must still call out sin where we see it but Christ taught that we must not engage in judgement, in other words earthly punishment. Ancient Israel was a theocracy so the Law of God was also the law of the land. As such, it included earthly punishment as outlined by God's commandments. Christ changed that when He fulfilled the Law and warned us against judging a person. He never told us not to call out sin but that God would judge people.

As for judging anyone for what they eat or wear, Christ clearly addressed dietary restrictions when He said in Matthew 15:11; 11Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." He goes on the explain in verses 17-19 "17Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:...". As for what people wear, the Old Testament does speak of a dress code of sorts in Leviticus 19:19 where we read; "neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee." and in Deutoronomy 22:11-12 which reads "11Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together. 12Thou shalt make thee fringes upon the four quarters of thy vesture, wherewith thou coverest thyself." I'm not sure what you're referring to by judging someone for what they wear but I judge no one. One can point out the sinfulness of a persons behavior without judging the person. As for clothing, I do believe in modest dress both for men and women.
You mention hating ones enemies. First God never commanded us to hate anyone and Christ told us in Matthew 5:44 "44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;".

As for slaves, I believe Clare73 covered that subject quite thoroughly. I don't even know what you are trying to say with your closing comment "God's commandments can hardly be against Christian conscience. If they were, I would question and carefully investigated them, whether they are really from God." At any rate, as God's commandments aren't against my Christian conscience, I don't think I'll question them.
Conscience is not created by the world. Conscience is in all of us, regardless our religious beliefs. Yes, an atheist, who listens to his conscience, can live a more ethical life than a Christian, who ignores his conscience but keeps the Old Testament to the letter (and tries to burn witches, to stone adulterers, judges everybody for what they eat or wear, hates his enemies, owns slaves etc.).
 
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guevaraj

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If God gave important truths to the body of Christ and then allowed them to be lost, he would be the person that lit a lamp and then allowed someone else to put a bucket over it
Exactly. Is the Church "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic," or not? Is it "the pillar and foundation of truth," or not? Did our Lord promise that the gates of hell wouldn't prevail against it, or did He not?
Brothers, the light is the word of God guaranteed by the prophets and does not come from non-prophets who have given us papular human traditions like Sunday that have canceled the word of God about the Sabbath in the fourth commandment.

Jesus replied, “You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote, ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commandments from God.’ For you ignore God’s law(nomos)/commandment(entolé) and substitute your own tradition.” Then he said, “You skillfully sidestep God’s law(nomos)/commandment(entolé) in order to hold on to your own tradition. For instance, Moses gave you this law(nomos)/commandment(entolé) from God: ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and ‘Anyone who speaks disrespectfully of father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, ‘Sorry, I can’t help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I would have given to you.’ In this way, you let them disregard their needy parents. And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others.” (Mark 7:6-13 NLT fixed)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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trophy33

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Oh, my. A thread about Sabbath worship has turned into a diatribe suggesting that those who believe in the law are trying to "burn witches, stone adulterers, judge everybody for what they eat or wear, hates his enemies and owns slaves". First, let me say that as a Christian, I believe first and foremost in the teachings of Christ as they apply to the law (or any other subject for that matter. Christ did make some modifications to some points of the law and clarified others. I don't know where to start. First, as to burning witches, stoning adulterers and judging everybody for what they eat or wear. These actions are all judgements and Christ clearly modified the law to indicate that judgement was no longer our responsibility. As a matter of fact He warned against it in Matthew 7:1-5 where He says; "1Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." In John 8:15-16 He says "15Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. 16And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me." So, Christ not only taught us that we should not judge others and said that even He judges no man, He also noted that judgement is God's. As to the point of burning witches, for clarification the Old Testament Law did not prescribe burning of witches but rather stoning was the death penalty that He commanded. In Leviticus 20:27we read; ""A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist, shall surely be put to death; they shall be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them". Further witches were not a concept in those days. Witch and witchcraft are Middle Ages English concepts. The earliest recorded use of the word "witch" in the English language is found in the laws of AElfred, dating to about 890, where it refers to women who are "accustomed to receiving enchanters and sorceresses and witches" The translations that mention witches are using this Middle Ages concept to describe what in the Old Testament referred to necromancers, sorcerers and the divination of "familiar spirits" (as in "Witch of Endor"). As for their burning at the stake, that was a part of the witch hunts and trials that followed the "witch" mania from those times. At the time of these happenings, there is no evidence that any of those people who were burned, drowned or otherwise executed were even practicing any of the "witchcraft" of which they were accused. Thus the term witch hunt has come to symbolize the hunting of something that doesn't exist. While witchcraft in those days were trumped up charges, there is an actual modern practice of "witchcraft" which gained popularity in the 1940s. According to Helen Berger of Brandeis University "Wicca, an alternative minority religion whose adherents, regardless of gender, call themselves witches, began in the U.K. in the 1940s. Wicca and Witchcraft are part of the larger contemporary pagan movement, which includes druids and heathens among others. All these spiritual paths, as pagans refer to them, base their practices on pre-Christian religions and cultures. I believe as Christians we should point out that these practices are sinful but again we shouldn't judge much less burn or stone anyone.

As for the stoning of adulterers, that is an Old Testament law. The point is one of the things Christ modified is that we as humans are no longer responsible for judgement. We must still call out sin where we see it but Christ taught that we must not engage in judgement, in other words earthly punishment. Ancient Israel was a theocracy so the Law of God was also the law of the land. As such, it included earthly punishment as outlined by God's commandments. Christ changed that when He fulfilled the Law and warned us against judging a person. He never told us not to call out sin but that God would judge people.

As for judging anyone for what they eat or wear, Christ clearly addressed dietary restrictions when He said in Matthew 15:11; 11Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." He goes on the explain in verses 17-19 "17Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:...". As for what people wear, the Old Testament does speak of a dress code of sorts in Leviticus 19:19 where we read; "neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee." and in Deutoronomy 22:11-12 which reads "11Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together. 12Thou shalt make thee fringes upon the four quarters of thy vesture, wherewith thou coverest thyself." I'm not sure what you're referring to by judging someone for what they wear but I judge no one. One can point out the sinfulness of a persons behavior without judging the person. As for clothing, I do believe in modest dress both for men and women.
You mention hating ones enemies. First God never commanded us to hate anyone and Christ told us in Matthew 5:44 "44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;".

As for slaves, I believe Clare73 covered that subject quite thoroughly. I don't even know what you are trying to say with your closing comment "God's commandments can hardly be against Christian conscience. If they were, I would question and carefully investigated them, whether they are really from God." At any rate, as God's commandments aren't against my Christian conscience, I don't think I'll question them.
Oh mine. Create a shorter post with clearer formatting and spacing and present only one or two points of yours. This is not readable.

My point was: "an atheist, who listens to his conscience, can live a more ethical life than a Christian, who ignores his conscience but keeps the Old Testament to the letter"

I am not even sure if you agree with this or not.
 
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jas3

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Brothers, the light is the word of God guaranteed by the prophets and does not come from non-prophets who have given us papular human traditions like Sunday that have canceled the word of God about the Sabbath in the fourth commandment.
I'm not sure what that has to do with the Church being the Body of Christ, or how it responds to the problem you have created of the Church having lost the true faith if Sunday worship is sinful.
 
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guevaraj

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I'm not sure what that has to do with the Church being the Body of Christ, or how it responds to the problem you have created of the Church having lost the true faith if Sunday worship is sinful.
Exactly. Is the Church "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic," or not?
Brother, no! There are those who claim to follow Jesus, but don't, like our mother church, which abandoned the Sabbath for Sunday in the fourth commandment.

Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’ (Matthew 7:21-23 NLT)​
Is it "the pillar and foundation of truth," or not?
No! Our mother church has apostatized, and Protestants must return to the truth about the Sabbath.

He gave a mighty shout: “Babylon is fallen—that great city is fallen! She has become a home for demons. She is a hideout for every foul spirit, a hideout for every foul vulture and every foul and dreadful animal. For all the nations have fallen because of the wine of her passionate immorality. The kings of the world have committed adultery with her. Because of her desires for extravagant luxury, the merchants of the world have grown rich.” Then I heard another voice calling from heaven, “Come away from her, my people. Do not take part in her sins, or you will be punished with her. For her sins are piled as high as heaven, and God remembers her evil deeds. (Revelation 18:2-4 NLT)​
Did our Lord promise that the gates of hell wouldn't prevail against it, or did He not?
The "rock" is Jesus and not Peter as an excuse given by our mother church to replace the Sabbath in the fourth commandment with Sunday.

I don’t want you to forget, dear brothers and sisters, about our ancestors in the wilderness long ago. All of them were guided by a cloud that moved ahead of them, and all of them walked through the sea on dry ground. In the cloud and in the sea, all of them were baptized as followers of Moses. All of them ate the same spiritual food, and all of them drank the same spiritual water. For they drank from the spiritual rock that traveled with them, and that rock was Christ. Yet God was not pleased with most of them, and their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. (1 Corinthians 10:1-5 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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jas3

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Brother, no! There are those who claim to follow Jesus, but don't, like our mother church, which abandoned the Sabbath for Sunday in the fourth commandment.
No! Our mother church has apostatized, and Protestants must return to the truth about the Sabbath.
Then you're proposing that the gates of hell did prevail against the Church. That stands in direct contradiction to our Lord's promise in Matt. 16:18 and the Nicene Creed.
The "rock" is Jesus and not Peter as an excuse given by our mother church to replace the Sabbath in the fourth commandment with Sunday.
You will note that I didn't mention the "rock" of Matt. 16:18 at all, only that the Church will not ever be lost.
 
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