Is the Rapture credible?

[lismore]

Whether the rapture has a credible scriptural basis depends on one's theological perspective and how these passages are interpreted. Some believers see it as a clear promise, while others consider it a more modern doctrinal development.

Hello, I hope you're well. The passage you cited in 1 Thessalonians 4:13:17 is an interesting one:

Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

I'm wondering what kind of 'interpretation' could take the reader away from the evident substance of this passage, must be a very convoluted interpretation. God Bless You

 

[ARBITER01]

Is salvation a bed of comfort and ease?

Mat 5:11 LSB “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.
Mat 5:44 LSB “But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Mat 10:23 LSB “But whenever they persecute you in this city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.
Mat 23:34 LSB “On account of this, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will flog in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
Luk 21:12 LSB “But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name’s sake.
Joh 15:20 LSB “Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.
Act 7:52 LSB “And which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become;
Rom 12:14 LSB Bless those who persecute you; bless, and do not curse.
Gal 1:13 LSB For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I used to persecute the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it.

I think you have the wrong idea of wrath.

People coming against us and our walk with Jesus is to be expected throughout our life. The wrath of GOD being poured out during a tribulation is something altogether different.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I think you have the wrong idea of wrath.

People coming against us and our walk with Jesus is to be expected throughout our life. The wrath of GOD being poured out during a tribulation is something altogether different.

So, you are thinking of "the tribulation" as the wrath of God poured out on sinners?

 

[Dale]

The concept of the "rapture" is one that's often discussed in Christian theology, particularly among certain Protestant denominations. It refers to a belief that faithful Christians will be taken up to heaven before a period of tribulation on Earth. This idea is primarily derived from a few key passages in the New Testament, though interpretations vary widely.

One of the main scriptures cited to support the belief in a rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, which describes how "the dead in Christ will rise first" and how believers "will be caught up together... to meet the Lord in the air." The phrase "caught up" is often translated from the Greek word "harpazo," which means to seize or snatch away, and this is where the term "rapture" originates.

Another passage frequently mentioned is 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, which speaks of a mystery where believers will be changed "in the twinkling of an eye" at the last trumpet. These verses have been interpreted as describing an instantaneous transformation and ascension of believers.

However, it's worth noting that the exact term "rapture" does not appear in the Bible, and the belief in a rapture as it's commonly understood today largely stems from interpretations popularised in the 19th and 20th centuries, especially through dispensationalist theology. Other Christians interpret these passages differently and may view them as metaphorical or as describing events at Christ's second coming.

Whether the rapture has a credible scriptural basis depends on one's theological perspective and how these passages are interpreted. Some believers see it as a clear promise, while others consider it a more modern doctrinal development.

I don't believe the rapture, or a rapture separate from the Second Coming, deserves to be called an interpretation of scripture. It is more like a fantasy inspired by scripture. Befief in "rapture" came out of Dispensationalism, a very recent belief. I have found everything that Dispensationalists believe to be a jumble of misunderstandings. All of the key points they make are contradicted by scripture.

To arrive at a "rapture," you first have to separate the Second Coming into two parts, the Rapture and the Second Coming. There has to be a private, secret Coming, where Jesus flies over and grabs his people, followed at a later time by a public Second Coming, which no one can miss. There is no foundation for this. The very verse in Thessalonians that modern Rapturists point to tells that the arrival of Jesus will be announced with "trumpet" and the voice of an archangel. How is a secret coming that no one knows about to be announced? It would no longer be secret.

Where I live, "rapture" has been discussed in letter to the editor, and writers who believe in a rapture make the point that you have to separate it out from the Second Coming.

The very term "Left Behind" shows how confused Dispensationalists are. The phrase comes from Matthew 24 but it means means the opposite of what they think. In Matthew 24, the "taken" are killed and those "left behind" are fortunate enough to live. Someone wrote a book, "I Want to be Left Behind" making that very point.

As I keep saying, no verse anywhere in the Bible says anything about God removing His people from a world where political events are still taking place.

 

[Clare73]

I don't believe the rapture, or a rapture separate from the Second Coming, deserves to be called an interpretation of scripture. It is more like a fantasy inspired by scripture.

Have you studied Scripture?

The apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16) presents a catching up (harpazo) of the saints to meet the Lord in the air
after the one and only resurrection occurring
at the one and only second coming,

It's second coming -- > resurrection of all mankind (sheep and goats) --> catching up to meet the Lord in the air.

Befief in "rapture" came out of Dispensationalism, a very recent belief. I have found everything that Dispensationalists believe to be a jumble of misunderstandings. All of the key points they make are contradicted by scripture.

To arrive at a "rapture," you first have to separate the Second Coming into two parts, the Rapture and the Second Coming. There has to be a private, secret Coming, where Jesus flies over and grabs his people, followed at a later time by a public Second Coming, which no one can miss. There is no foundation for this. The very verse in Thessalonians that modern Rapturists point to tells that the arrival of Jesus will be announced with "trumpet" and the voice of an archangel. How is a secret coming that no one knows about to be announced? It would no longer be secret.

Where I live, "rapture" has been discussed in letter to the editor, and writers who believe in a rapture make the point that you have to separate it out from the Second Coming.

The very term "Left Behind" shows how confused Dispensationalists are. The phrase comes from Matthew 24 but it means means the opposite of what they think. In Matthew 24, the "taken" are killed and those "left behind" are fortunate enough to live. Someone wrote a book, "I Want to be Left Behind" making that very point.

As I keep saying, no verse anywhere in the Bible says anything about God removing His people from a world where political events are still taking place.

 

[ARBITER01]

So, you are thinking of "the tribulation" as the wrath of God poured out on sinners?

That's what I see it as. It's not a good time for anyone on earth.

 

[1Tonne]

Have you studied Scripture?

The apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16) presents a catching up (harpazo) of the saints to meet the Lord in the air
after the one and only resurrection occurring
at the one and only second coming,

It's second coming -- > resurrection of all mankind (sheep and goats) --> catching up to meet the Lord in the air.

This is your personal apostolic interpretation, and you try elevate your interpretation by using the wording "the apostolic teaching of Christ". Many people interpret the scripture differently from you. And you have been known to be wrong in your teachings. For example, you use Numbers 12:6-8 to say that all prophecy is given in riddles. So, even if it can be read as literal, we need to read it as figurative. I then proved to you that you were wrong by giving you prophecies that were not in riddles. Such as it was prophesied that the messiah would be born in Bethlehem, and then He was born there. There was no riddle about it. Bethlehem was Bethlehem. Your personal interpretations can be wrong because you make a doctrine off one verse and then apply it to the entire bible.
You tend to use the wording of "the apostolic teaching of Christ" as way of reinforcing your viewpoint when in reality, it is simply your personal interpretation.
So, try debating without using those words, as it is not the teaching of Christ if it is simply your opinion.

 

[Clare73]

Your personal interpretations can be wrong because you make a doctrine off one verse and then apply it to the entire bible.
You tend to use the wording of "the apostolic teaching of Christ" as way of reinforcing your viewpoint when in reality, it is simply your personal interpretation.

Then it falls to you to Biblically demonstrate from the didactics (not just assert) that the interpretation is incorrect.

 

[1Tonne]

Then it falls to you to Biblically demonstrate from the didactics (not just assert) that the interpretation is incorrect.

You are the one who originally claimed that your interpretation is 'the apostolic teaching of Christ.' Since that is a strong assertion, the burden is on you to prove that your interpretation is universally what the apostles taught—not just your personal view. You cannot assume your position is correct and then demand that I disprove it.

Furthermore, I have already demonstrated that your interpretive method is flawed. You have argued many times from Numbers 12:6-8 that all prophecy is given in riddles, but I refuted that by showing examples of clear, literal prophecies (such as Micah 5:2 about the Messiah’s birth in Bethlehem). That alone proves that you sometimes make doctrine by misapplying a single verse across the entire Bible.

If you wish to claim that your view on 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the 'apostolic teaching of Christ,' then show me where the apostles or Jesus explicitly state your interpretation. If you cannot, then your claim is merely your opinion, not authoritative doctrine.

 

[Dan Perez]

But that isn't historically accurate, the rapture is a 19th century innovation in Protestant theology.

And those that IMITATE , Paul , where he wrote 1 THESS 4 : 17 , CAUGHT AWAY // HARPAZO , FUTURE TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE

In 1 THESS 3: 13 THE WORD COMING // PAROUSIA

In 2 Thess 2:1 we see the word COMING again !!

In 2 thess 3 WE see the word DEPARTURE // APOSTASIA

And in verse 6 , we see that the GRACE BELIEVERS that the ONE Hindering in order for for him to be revealed

in HIS time , , meaning the antichrist .

This means that ONLY GRACE BELIEVERS have known that we disbelieve and known for over 2000 years , because

many so called saved are not being IMITATORS of the APOSTLE Paul as written in 1 Cor 11:1

And many believe that WATER BAPTISM does save nor GOOD WORKS

dan p

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Have you studied Scripture?

The apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16) presents a catching up (harpazo) of the saints to meet the Lord in the air
after the one and only resurrection occurring
at the one and only second coming,

It's second coming -- > resurrection of all mankind (sheep and goats) --> catching up to meet the Lord in the air.

Surely it is rather condescending to talk down to your interlocutor with a question like "Have you studied Scripture?". And neither First Thessalonians nor the Gospel according to saint Luke mentions "the rapture". The word simply is not in any of the standard English Language translations of the holy scriptures. Nor does "harpaso" mean rapture. It means this:

The Greek word "harpazo" (ἁρπάζω) means to seize, snatch, or take away by force. It conveys the idea of something being taken suddenly and decisively, often with a sense of urgency or power. In biblical contexts, it is sometimes used to describe divine intervention or rescue, such as being "caught up" to heaven. [Strong's Greek: 726. ἁρπάζω (harpazó) -- To seize, snatch, take away by force], [ G726 - harpazō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) ], [ Where did the term 'rapture' come from? | Bible.org ]​

The scriptures do in fact depict a catching up to meet the Lord, to be with him forever, at the second coming and the last judgement which accompanies the second coming. The theory of a 3.5 year tribulation and a pre tribulation rapture, or a mid tribulation rapture, or a post tribulation rapture followed by events that result in a one thousand year earthly rule of Christ (perhaps centred on Jerusalem) is a product of the earlier part of the nineteenth century theological end times speculations engaged in by numerous independent groups and small denominations. It has no significant earlier presence. It is an innovation in eschatology that has spread far and wide among English speaking evangelicals and Pentecostals.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

many so called saved are not being IMITATORS of the APOSTLE Paul as written in 1 Cor 11:1

A Christian is a follower of the Lord, Jesus Christ. That is in fact what saint Paul was. There is no special reason for Christians to seek to be in some kind of group who follow saint Paul since if they are following Jesus Christ then they will be on the same path that saint Paul walked while he was alive and in this world.

 

[Dan Perez]

A Christian is a follower of the Lord, Jesus Christ. That is in fact what saint Paul was. There is no special reason for Christians to seek to be in some kind of group who follow saint Paul since if they are following Jesus Christ then they will be on the same path that saint Paul walked while he was alive and in this world.

And you have a verse of who you follow as Paul FOLLOWED CHRIST as 1 Cor 11:1 and 2 and also in 1 Cor 4:16 , PERIOD

So who are you following with a verse ??

dan p

 

[Dan Perez]

Hello, I hope you're well. The passage you cited in 1 Thessalonians 4:13:17 is an interesting one:

Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

I'm wondering what kind of 'interpretation' could take the reader away from the evident substance of this passage, must be a very convoluted interpretation. God Bless You

If you are speaking to dan p , I can go explain word for word with the Greek tense , with the Moods and Voices .

And read 1:Thess 4:13-18 !!

And 2 Thess 2:1-17

dan p

 

[Godsunworthyservant]

A few things to take into consideration. In 2000+ years this question has not been answered, there are great arguments on both sides. Rapture is in the bible. The Latin Vulgate.

The Greek word from this term “rapture” is derived from what appears in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, translated “caught up.” The Latin translation of this verse used the word rapturo. The Greek word it translates this as harpazo, which means to snatch or take away. Elsewhere it is used to describe how the Spirit caught up Philip near Gaza and brought him to Caesarea (Acts 8:39) and to describe Paul’s experience of being caught up into the third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2-4). Thus there can be no doubt that the word is used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 to indicate the actual removal of people from earth to heaven.​

I sway 51% that there will be a rapture before the second coming, but I will not die on this hill over it. It is also not considered an essential belief to salvation so I would just decide which makes more sense to you and keep going. It's not a showstopper.

Exactly why I don't worry myself about a rapture much less when it will happen. I've read the arguments for pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation and post tribulation. All I can say is Christ never mentioned a tribulation period anyway and nowhere in the Bible is there any mention of the timing of such an event, so I figure the best thing I can do is work on doing and studying those things which Christ taught us to do and let God handle such things as a rapture.

 

[Godsunworthyservant]

Chiliasm was in evidence from immediately after the Apostle John in history. It may very well, then, have come from John, and as such, would not be "man-made."

I'm curious. You suggest that "it may very well, then, have come from John, and as such, would not be "man-made'. That's quite a leap to suggest that one should believe something just because it "may" have come from John. Why should we even be concerned about where it came from? All I know is it didn't come from Christ so should have no bearing on living a Christian life. And for what it's worth, Chiliasm still didn't address the timing of a "rapture". While it was used as a supposed basis for the different rapture beliefs, it is what today is known as millennialism, or the belief in a thousand year reign of Christ on Earth. This belief is based on an interpretation of events described in revelation Chapter 20 where there is no mention of a rapture.

 

[Clare73]

You are the one who originally claimed that your interpretation is 'the apostolic teaching of Christ.' Since that is a strong assertion, the burden is on you to prove that your interpretation is universally what the apostles taught—not just your personal view. You cannot assume your position is correct and then demand that I disprove it.

What would you have me prove about 1 Th 4:16-17?

If you wish to claim that your view on 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the 'apostolic teaching of Christ,' then show me where the apostles or Jesus explicitly state your interpretation. If you cannot, then your claim is merely your opinion, not authoritative doctrine.

The teaching of the apostles (1 Th 4:16-17) is the teaching of Christ (Lk 10:16).

What in the teaching of Christ in 1 Th 4:6-17 do you not understand?

Personal eschatology can blind to the plain meaning of didactical text.

 

[Clare73]

Surely it is rather condescending to talk down to your interlocutor with a question like "Have you studied Scripture?". And neither First Thessalonians nor the Gospel according to saint Luke mentions "the rapture". The word simply is not in any of the standard English Language translations of the holy scriptures.

Non-responsive. . .

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

neither First Thessalonians nor the Gospel according to saint Luke mentions "the rapture". The word simply is not in any of the standard English Language translations of the holy scriptures. Nor does "harpaso" mean rapture. It means this:

The Greek word "harpazo" (ἁρπάζω) means to seize, snatch, or take away by force. It conveys the idea of something being taken suddenly and decisively, often with a sense of urgency or power. In biblical contexts, it is sometimes used to describe divine intervention or rescue, such as being "caught up" to heaven. [Strong's Greek: 726. ἁρπάζω (harpazó) -- To seize, snatch, take away by force], [ G726 - harpazō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) ], [ Where did the term 'rapture' come from? | Bible.org ]​

The scriptures do in fact depict a catching up to meet the Lord, to be with him forever, at the second coming and the last judgement which accompanies the second coming. The theory of a 3.5 year tribulation and a pre tribulation rapture, or a mid tribulation rapture, or a post tribulation rapture followed by events that result in a one thousand year earthly rule of Christ (perhaps centred on Jerusalem) is a product of the earlier part of the nineteenth century theological end times speculations engaged in by numerous independent groups and small denominations. It has no significant earlier presence. It is an innovation in eschatology that has spread far and wide among English speaking evangelicals and Pentecostals.

Non-responsive. . .

oops, there I was thinking it was a direct contradiction of a claim in one of your posts.

 

[1Tonne]

What would you have me prove about 1 Th 4:16-17?

That your interpretation of that verse is what the apostles universally taught and not simply your opinion.

What in the teaching of Christ in 1 Th 4:6-17 do you not understand?

Yes, I do understand 1 Th 4:13-17. I have shown you that Christ and the apostles knew that believers are raised on the very last day, not before. (John 6:39). In Revelation 20:4-6, it does mention people who are raised before the last day. They are asleep in Christ, so "the dead in Christ", the martyrs, and they are raised before anyone else. They come and reign with Him for 1000 years. Revelation then says that the rest of the people are not raised at this time. Then on the last day, those who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
So, it is only the martyrs who are raised before the last day. Every other person is raised on the last day. As Jesus taught.

Here is my point. I do not mind people discussing the theory of the rapture; what I disagree with is when someone claims authority by saying that their view was the view that Jesus and the apostles taught when there is evidence against this person's view. There is evidence against your view. (John 6:39 and also in Revelation where it says that no one else is raised. Only the martyrs)