Is the Rapture credible?

[Xeno.of.athens]

Premillennialism is a man made doctrine. A rapture on the last day in a " twinkel of an eye" is the biblically sound doctrine.

Historically that was never called a "rapture" it is a part of the "second coming", "second coming" is both the historical and the biblical language used to designate the event that brings day to day worldly events to an end.

 

[Richard T]

This is simply not true. You can easily google it.

I'm a pre-trib rapture believer. I do understand the argumants against the rapture, but the rapture being a 19th centrury innovation is not one of them.

To support your claim, here is an academic article with cites on some early rapture type teachings from a professor at Liberty University.
"The sermon was written some time between the fourth and sixth century. The rapture statement reads as follows: Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? . . . For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." Source: (Thomas Ice) https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1003&context=pretrib_arch
This author also cites evidence in the 13/14th Century.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Historically that was never called a "rapture" it is a part of the "second coming", "second coming" is both the historical and the biblical language used to designate the event that brings day to day worldly events to an end.

Yes , just keeping the peace. No one really knows for sure how the last day will actually look like.

 

[ViaCrucis]

This is simply not true. You can easily google it.

I'm a pre-trib rapture believer. I do understand the argumants against the rapture, but the rapture being a 19th centrury innovation is not one of them.

One can find websites that provide out of context citations and misquotes. For the same reason that one can find websites which claim Jesus is just a pagan dying-rising god, or that Christian holidays are actually pagan holidays in disguise, or that any number of things.

The question isn't what you can find with a Google search, but what is historically verifiable, credible, and substantive.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[The Liturgist]

One can find websites that provide out of context citations and misquotes. For the same reason that one can find websites which claim Jesus is just a pagan dying-rising god, or that Christian holidays are actually pagan holidays in disguise, or that any number of things.

The question isn't what you can find with a Google search, but what is historically verifiable, credible, and substantive.

-CryptoLutheran

Amen. This is why i base my doctrine on Patristic materials, including liturgical materials (many of the hymns, anaphoras and liturgies used by the Orthodox are more than 1,500 years old, and most of the hymns and canons are about 1,100-1,200 years in age, having partially replaced the older style of hymn known as a Kontakion, although some long Kontakia survive, notably the Akathist).

 

[Clare73]

Historically that was never called a "rapture" it is a part of the "second coming", "second coming" is both the historical and the biblical language used to designate the event that brings day to day worldly events to an end.

In the NT, is it about "historically" or is it about "Biblically?"
I submit that "historically" is without Biblical authority, that "Biblically" governs.

Biblically, the second coming is the second coming, not the resurrection nor the catching up,
Biblically, the resurrection is the resurrection, not the second coming nor the catching up,
Biblically, the catching up is the catching up, not the second coming nor the resurrection.

They all occur at the end of time--second coming, resurrection, catching up--but they are not all the same event.

 

[bibleexpert12345]

It was real. Jesus said he was coming back when the temple was going to be destroyed. The destruction of Jerusalem, the rapture, a massive resurrection of the dead of the Israelites, and the great tribulation prophecies are all linked in together. The great tribulation was Christians fleeing Jerusalem before the Romans destroyed it 70 AD (flight to Pella), Jesus came back above Jerusalem with all the angels at the right hand of the father 70 AD, all the OT Israelites rose from the dead; the faithful ones got raptured same with some of the predestined elect remnant the lost sheep of the house of Israel all saved via belief in Jesus by 70 AD; they were the 144 000 in Revelation 7. Revelation 1-12 happened 70 AD but Revelation 13-22 is still future. All those events in the first century had nothing to do with Revelation 20, and the final judgement, and another mass raising from the dead. Anti Christ in John was likely Nero as he was the first emperor to kill Christians, and that prophecy had nothing to do with Revelation; there is no overlap with those prophecies. Man of sin in Thessalonians that set himself up in the temple of God as the abomination of desolation or put a statue in the temple of a foreign God or himself or whatever it was had to be Eleazar Ben Hanania that stopped the daily sacrifice 66 AD fulfilling Daniel 9, and 12, and Jesus statement about it in Math 24, and sparking the Judean Romans wars which led to the temple being destroyed 70 AD. Dan 9, and 12 both ended 70 AD, Dan 8, and 11 both ended in Maccabees.

Noahs flood is called the end, Ezekiel calls God judgement on Israel in the 500s BC using the Babylonians the end, Daniel calls Maccabees the end, and 70 AD the end, the NT calls 70 AD the end. It meant the end of Gods patience, and time of judgement, and in the NT also meant the end of the letter of the law of Moses age, and the arrival of the messiah. 70 AD is also called the last days again it means last days of waiting for the messiah, and the letter of the law of Moses.

70 AD marked the point the old covenant definition of Jew in Romans 2 28 29 became fully obsolete, and only the new covenant definition remains. Christians are Jews, and the Israel of God Galatians 6 16 Galatians 3 29 etc. Spiritual circumcision via belief in Jesus Christ replaced physical circumcision as the sign of being heir to Abrahams blessing. God replaced physical Jerusalem / Palestine / Canaan as the promise land for his chosen people with the new Jerusalem heavenly mt Zion spiritual kingdom of God not physical military economic political geographical like the OT was.

All remnant Israel was saved by 70 AD.

Although it won't happen for a few thousand years based on 1 Enochs 10,000 year prophecy the next thing to happen is Revelation 13 which is about modern day Israel of satan, and the mark of the beast is the hexagram. It is also the last kingdom of Daniel 2, and 7 that tramples down the entire earth. Mystery Babylon is physical Jerusalem once it is world capital. Some Christians already voluntarily worship the country but everyone will have to eventually, deny Jesus, get the hexagram on the hand or forehead or be killed.

Most prophecies from the OT happened already.
The new covenant church the Israel of God was born in a day on Pentecost when 3000 Jews from all nations were gathered together, believed in their king David Jesus, and became a spiritual nation.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

In the NT, is it about "historically" or is it about "Biblically?"

Both biblically and historically the "catching up/away" was not called "rapture". It was called "second coming".

 

[Clare73]

Both biblically and historically the "catching up/away" was not called "rapture". It was called "second coming".

By whom?

Read 1 Th 4:16-17 again. . .where we find three separate events:
1) second coming,
2) resurrection,
3) catching up.

Not all who participate in the resurrection will participate in the catching up.
One word, second coming, is not an accurate description of what occurs for everyone at that time.

Inaccuracy leads to false doctrine.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

By whom?

Read 1 Th 4:16-17 again. . .where we find three separate events:
1) second coming,
2) resurrection,
3) catching up.

Not all who participate in the resurrection will participate in the catching up.
One word, second coming, is not an accurate description of what occurs for everyone at that time.

Inaccuracy leads to false doctrine.

There is one event with a number of constituent parts. The event is the second coming. Here, look at the wording.

1Th 4:13-18 LSB But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.​

 

[Clare73]

There is one event with a number of constituent parts.

Which "parts" each have their own name (second coming, resurrection, catching up) and do not necessarily apply to all, for not all will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, therefore, the parts must be distinguished in order to be accurate regarding their application.

The event is the second coming. Here, look at the wording.

1Th 4:13-18 LSB But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.​

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Which "parts" each have their own name and do not necessarily apply to all, for not all will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, therefore, the parts must be distinguished in order to be accurate regarding their application.

Are you really suggesting that the "rapture" is credible because of you think of it as constituent part of the second coming?

 

[Clare73]

Are you really suggesting that the "rapture" is credible because of you think of it as constituent part of the second coming?

Are you not familiar with 1 Th 4:16-17, where we find the "catching up" (Gr: "harpazo;" La: rapturo) to meet the Lord in the air after the resurrection at the second coming?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Are you not familiar with 1 Th 4:16-17, where we find the "catching up" (Gr: "harpazo;" La: rapturo) to meet the Lord in the air after the resurrection at the second coming?

I posted 1 th 4:16-17, did you not read that?

 

[Clare73]

I posted 1 th 4:16-17, did you not read that?

Then is the "credibility" of the rapture (snatching up) being questioned in post #32?


What am I missing here?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Then is the "credibility" of the rapture (snatching up) being questioned in post #32?


What am I missing here?

I am reading Job, at chapter 38. There's a verse or two there applicable here.

 

[Clare73]

I am reading Job, at chapter 38. There's a verse or two there applicable here.

And the answer to my question?

Or are you not sure. . .which is okay.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Is the rapture credible - yes.

 

[ARBITER01]

1Th 5:9 For God appointed us not unto wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Given such passages as this, I wouldn't say we as born again Christians are destined to suffer the wrath of GOD during a tribulation.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

1Th 5:9 For God appointed us not unto wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Given such passages as this, I wouldn't say we as born again Christians are destined to suffer the wrath of GOD during a tribulation.

Is salvation a bed of comfort and ease?

Mat 5:11 LSB “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.
Mat 5:44 LSB “But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Mat 10:23 LSB “But whenever they persecute you in this city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.
Mat 23:34 LSB “On account of this, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will flog in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
Luk 21:12 LSB “But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name’s sake.
Joh 15:20 LSB “Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.
Act 7:52 LSB “And which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become;
Rom 12:14 LSB Bless those who persecute you; bless, and do not curse.
Gal 1:13 LSB For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I used to persecute the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it.