Exploring the Relationship Between Adam's Initial Immortality and the Age of the Earth

[Avaree]

Adam upon being created by GOD and was initially in a state of innocence and perfection in the Garden of Eden. He was created to live forever, which suggests that he was in a condition of immortality while in Eden.

However, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, both of them were punished with mortality when GOD tells Adam that he will return to the ground from which he was taken.

As a result, if we consider Adam's state of being in Eden as immortal, it is challenging to calculate how long he lived in the garden starting from the point when he was created to the time when he fell.

From scripture, Adam's genealogies provide a timeline that leads to the conclusion of a young Earth, typically around 6,000 years old. However, if one considers the possibility that Adam lived for a very long time in a perfect, immortal state before disobedience, this could imply a much longer timeline for humanity (and an older earth) before the onset of mortality and the experiences described later after the serpent deceives Eve.

Thoughts?

 

[Job 33:6]

Adam upon being created by GOD and was initially in a state of innocence and perfection in the Garden of Eden. He was created to live forever, which suggests that he was in a condition of immortality while in Eden.

However, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, both of them were punished with mortality when GOD tells Adam that he will return to the ground from which he was taken.

As a result, if we consider Adam's state of being in Eden as immortal, it is challenging to calculate how long he lived in the garden starting from the point when he was created to the time when he fell.

From scripture, Adam's genealogies provide a timeline that leads to the conclusion of a young Earth, typically around 6,000 years old. However, if one considers the possibility that Adam lived for a very long time in a perfect, immortal state before disobedience, this could imply a much longer timeline for humanity (and an older earth) before the onset of mortality and the experiences described later after the serpent deceives Eve.

Thoughts?

The beginning is when God began to create. It is not the beginning of the existence of the earth:

Genesis 1:1-3 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Which is to say that the genealogies do not relate to the age of the earth.

When God began to create the heavens and the earth, the earth was formless and void. And the Bible does not say how long the earth was formless and void before God began to create it.

Kind of like if I were to say:
1. In the beginning, when I created a boat,
2. Now the boat was formless, in pieces, and empty, and darkness was over the face of the waters,
3. Then I said, let there be a hammer and nails.

In the above example, the beginning is when I began to create. And the text does not say how long the boat was in pieces before I began to create it.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Adam upon being created by GOD and was initially in a state of innocence and perfection in the Garden of Eden. He was created to live forever, which suggests that he was in a condition of immortality while in Eden.

However, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, both of them were punished with mortality when GOD tells Adam that he will return to the ground from which he was taken.

As a result, if we consider Adam's state of being in Eden as immortal, it is challenging to calculate how long he lived in the garden starting from the point when he was created to the time when he fell.

From scripture, Adam's genealogies provide a timeline that leads to the conclusion of a young Earth, typically around 6,000 years old. However, if one considers the possibility that Adam lived for a very long time in a perfect, immortal state before disobedience, this could imply a much longer timeline for humanity (and an older earth) before the onset of mortality and the experiences described later after the serpent deceives Eve.

Thoughts?

My thoughts ( though an old earther) .... Not much longer of a timeline. There is no evidence that they began to multiply, as they were comanded to, until after the fall. I don't think 100's of years passed before procreation took place.
Blessings

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Adam upon being created by GOD and was initially in a state of innocence and perfection in the Garden of Eden. He was created to live forever, which suggests that he was in a condition of immortality while in Eden.

However, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, both of them were punished with mortality when GOD tells Adam that he will return to the ground from which he was taken.

As a result, if we consider Adam's state of being in Eden as immortal, it is challenging to calculate how long he lived in the garden starting from the point when he was created to the time when he fell.

From scripture, Adam's genealogies provide a timeline that leads to the conclusion of a young Earth, typically around 6,000 years old. However, if one considers the possibility that Adam lived for a very long time in a perfect, immortal state before disobedience, this could imply a much longer timeline for humanity (and an older earth) before the onset of mortality and the experiences described later after the serpent deceives Eve.

Thoughts?

First of all, welcome to CF, Avaree! It's always good to have additional people with whom we can discuss biblical issues.

My general thought, however, is that from my own understanding of the first few passages in Genesis, Adam and Eve were not created with inherent immortality. If anything, I think the passage requires us to understand that they were mortal and would have to eat from the Tree of Life in order to sustain their God-given, and dependent, existence. I could be wrong, of course, but that's my view.

As for the age of the earth, that's not an issue I'm particularly concerned about, although I will say that I lean toward a very old Earth.

 

[stevevw]

Adam upon being created by GOD and was initially in a state of innocence and perfection in the Garden of Eden. He was created to live forever, which suggests that he was in a condition of immortality while in Eden.

However, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, both of them were punished with mortality when GOD tells Adam that he will return to the ground from which he was taken.

As a result, if we consider Adam's state of being in Eden as immortal, it is challenging to calculate how long he lived in the garden starting from the point when he was created to the time when he fell.

From scripture, Adam's genealogies provide a timeline that leads to the conclusion of a young Earth, typically around 6,000 years old. However, if one considers the possibility that Adam lived for a very long time in a perfect, immortal state before disobedience, this could imply a much longer timeline for humanity (and an older earth) before the onset of mortality and the experiences described later after the serpent deceives Eve.

Thoughts?

I don't think this changes the young earth model of creation because the time before the fall would not be an earth that evolved over long periods of gradualism which changed the earths atmosphere and decayed. It would have been a heavenly place where there were no death and decay.

Its only from the fall that we could measure earth as it is now which if Adama line is only 6,000 years then thats it 6,000 years worth of evolution, death and decay.

 

[Avaree]

First of all, welcome to CF, Avaree! It's always good to have additional people with whom we can discuss biblical issues.

My general thought, however, is that from my own understanding of the first few passages in Genesis, Adam and Eve were not created with inherent immortality. If anything, I think the passage requires us to understand that they were mortal and would have to eat from the Tree of Life in order to sustain their God-given, and dependent, existence. I could be wrong, of course, but that's my view.

The Bible supports this perspective, as evidenced by the fact that before Adam's expulsion from the Garden, God stationed Cherubim that guarded the way to the Tree of Life. This was done to prevent Adam from eating the fruit and living forever, which would have been detrimental because it would have allowed humanity to continue experiencing unending suffering, pain, and hardship.

 

[Job 33:6]

I don't think this changes the young earth model of creation because the time before the fall would not be an earth that evolved over long periods of gradualism which changed the earths atmosphere and decayed. It would have been a heavenly place where there were no death and decay.

Its only from the fall that we could measure earth as it is now which if Adama line is only 6,000 years then thats it 6,000 years worth of evolution, death and decay.

The Bible never actually says that there was no death before the fall.

 

[stevevw]

The Bible never actually says that there was no death before the fall.

But there cannot be death before the fall as death was the result of the fall.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

But there cannot be death before the fall as death was the result of the fall.

I think the meaning clearly insinuates that entropy is inherent and only Adam and Eve were meant to have any access to the Tree of Life.

 

[Job 33:6]

But there cannot be death before the fall as death was the result of the fall.

According to what scripture?

Romans 5:12-14 ESV
[12] Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
[13] for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
[14] Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

This passage that mentions death spreading to all men because all sinned? This doesn't have anything to do with things like plants or animals. Does a worm sin?

Fruit is alive. If I take fruit from a tree, and I eat it, that is death. Unless the fruit somehow survives my digestive fluids.

The passage is specific to men or humanity. Death spread to all men, because all sinned. And that's what happened with Adam. He did not die in the garden. He took of the fruit. God kicked him out of the garden, and he was no longer protected or kept alive by the tree of life. His mortality took hold and he died.

And Adam's name, "adam" in Hebrew, is humanity. That's what it means. He is the archetype for mankind. We sin because he first sinned. We are dust because he was first dust. From dust he came and to dust he returned, and so shall we.

This is about the effects of sin in humanity. Paul isn't talking about a pre fall world where T-Rex ate watermelons or anything like that.

And in the context of the passage, it is also related to sin with respect to the mosaic law. Paul isn't talking about the animal kingdom.

 

[stevevw]

According to what scripture?

Romans 5:12 ESV
[12] Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

This passage that mentions death spreading to all men because all sinned? This doesn't have anything to do with things like plants or animals. Does a worm sin?

Ok lets just call it entropy. But it does say sin entered the world and Roman 8:22 after Romans 5:12 tells us that all creation is under the same curse For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. Waiting for Christs return to liberate it from this effect of the fall.

 

[Job 33:6]

Ok lets just call it entropy. But it does say sin entered the world and Roman 8:22 after Romans 5:12 tells us that all creation is under the same curse For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. Waiting for Christs return to liberate it from this effect of the fall.

Creation groaning together is not equivalent to death. And entropy is a scientific term of modern times, the Bible and sin and the fall have nothing to do with entropy or vice versa.

As a counterpoint, I would point to Psalm 104 that talks about God giving lions their prey. And in Genesis, God gave mankind dominion over the animals, the terminology is used in forceful and assertive ways throughout the Old Testament, The Hebrew terms radah and kabash.

 

[BeyondET]

Adam upon being created by GOD and was initially in a state of innocence and perfection in the Garden of Eden. He was created to live forever, which suggests that he was in a condition of immortality while in Eden.

Only God is perfect and scripture doesn't say anything about Adam living forever in the physical world.

God isn't just the Omega but the Alpha too, even before creation.

 

[BeyondET]

This was done to prevent Adam from eating the fruit and living forever, which would have been detrimental because it would have allowed humanity to continue experiencing unending suffering, pain, and hardship.

Correct Adam wasn't created to live forever. Since Adam ate of the knowledge tree, He couldn't eat from the tree of life as well. Which would of unlocked immortality eating from both trees.

 

[stevevw]

Creation groaning together is not equivalent to death. And entropy is a scientific term of modern times, the Bible and sin and the fall have nothing to do with entropy or vice versa.

Yes we know there was a different state or reality that came with the fall. Time began winding down as God said that this world and planet would be renewed. So something changed. It was not the heavenly everlasting realm before the fall.

As a counterpoint, I would point to Psalm 104 that talks about God giving lions their prey. And in Genesis, God gave mankind dominion over the animals, the terminology is used in forceful and assertive ways throughout the Old Testament, The Hebrew terms radah and kabash.

Actually the bible speaks of God giving vegetation and fruits to eat. Not for man to hunt and kill prey. That would mean a very real threat that Adam or Eve would be devoured or harmed by a predator seeking meat. Lions don't care whether its a human or a gazelle. Nor do sharks. Imagine if there wasn't a fall. Adams decents would who were surfing would be eaten for lunch lol.

 

[Job 33:6]

Yes we know there was a different state or reality that came with the fall. Time began winding down as God said that this world and planet would be renewed. So something changed. It was not the heavenly everlasting realm before the fall.

Actually the bible speaks of God giving vegetation and fruits to eat. Not for man to hunt and kill prey. That would mean a very real threat that Adam or Eve would be devoured or harmed by a predator seeking meat. Lions don't care whether its a human or a gazelle. Nor do sharks. Imagine if there wasn't a fall. Adams decents would who were surfing would be eaten for lunch lol.

The Bible also speaks of God giving animals for mankind to have dominion over. And there is no reason to exclude consumption from that.

And people did face threats of predation. That's why God called on mankind to subdue creation in Genesis 1. When God instructed mankind to subdue and rule over wild fish, he wasn't talking about building an aquarium.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yes we know there was a different state or reality that came with the fall. Time began winding down as God said that this world and planet would be renewed. So something changed. It was not the heavenly everlasting realm before the fall.

Actually the bible speaks of God giving vegetation and fruits to eat. Not for man to hunt and kill prey. That would mean a very real threat that Adam or Eve would be devoured or harmed by a predator seeking meat. Lions don't care whether its a human or a gazelle. Nor do sharks. Imagine if there wasn't a fall. Adams decents would who were surfing would be eaten for lunch lol.

This is what happens when we attempt to read Genesis 1-11 in a rigid fashion rather than take it as a prophetic but poetic narrative framework addressing issues germane to Ancient Near Eastern cultures rather than to our modern world.

 

[Job 33:6]

Genesis 1:29 ESV
[29] And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food.

People read this and assume that it means that people were vegans at creation. But literally all you have to do is read 1 verse prior:

Genesis 1:28 ESV
[28] And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

1 verse prior, God has given mankind dominion over animals. Wild fish and birds. For food, for clothing, for various uses. Sacrifice etc. God isn't giving us dominion over chickens and cattle so that we might have them as pets.

Plants are merely given for food, in addition.

 

[stevevw]

The Bible also speaks of God giving animals for mankind to have dominion over. And there is no reason to exclude consumption from that.

And people did face threats of predation. That's why God called on mankind to subdue creation in Genesis 1. When God instructed mankind to subdue and rule over wild fish, he wasn't talking about building an aquarium.

Just out of interest are you proposing that the garden was perhaps not the beginning but like a state of human existence where perhaps humans after evolving with animals reached a point of consciousness that made then God aware like they had some spiritual awakening. That this was Eden and where man and women become like God in His image. At the same time they became aware of right and wrong as opposed to animals because of that higher intelligence.

In that sense there was death before the fall. This allows for evolution as well as God consciousness. Now that humans were conscious rather than animalistic they were able to have dominian over animals because of their superior intelligence and consciousness.

This sort of makes sense as we see in history that humans more less came to know religion at a certain point. Before this they were simple hunter gatherers. Then we see belief come in with burials and other kinds of worship to the point that everything they did unlike today was religious and spiritual. The skies were the gods, the animals were spirits, the ground was associated with the gods, the rocks and mountains were gods.

They began to build temples to the gods to the point they became gods and thats when God intervened because they had strayed so far from the one true God that He sent the flood which was a real event around 14,000 years ago with the Younger Dryas event during the end of the last iceage when the ice sheets suddnly melted.

 

[stevevw]

This is what happens when we attempt to read Genesis 1-11 in a rigid fashion rather than take it as a prophetic but poetic narrative framework addressing issues germane to Ancient Near Eastern cultures rather than to our modern world.

Yes I agree. If you look at it this way then it makes more sense as to the reality on the ground.