Born Again?

[Guojing]

Evangelicals teach a momentous change from sinner to saint by a formulation called being "Born Again." And this implies for some an immediate change, and for others, a progressive change. In reality I think it is both.

I do think there is an immediate Born Again change when we begin to acknowledge that Christ is our substitute, when we put that reality into motion by accepting God's Word in our lives that enables us to live according to that directive. Just like when our employer tells us to do something he provides the means for us to do it, we can do God's word when He gives us the command to do it.

Even more, when God tells us to completely relinquish final say in our lives, and make God our primary source of authority, we are able to follow that directive and thereby obtain the spiritual means to comply. We become "Born Again."

Some Christians try to dismiss the confusion over formulations of Salvation on the premise that we begin as sinners and end as sinners even after we come under Grace. We are not instantly transformed into saints--we simply become God's People by covenant in the act of acknowledging it and following that directive.

A formula for becoming "Born Again" can become an "oversimplification" of the Salvation formula. We go from sinner to saint only in the sense that 1) we come under covenant with God, 2) we come under grace, and 3) we live by our substitute and not by our carnal being. As such, we are Born Again but not living in righteousness except on the basis of Grace until we obtain glorification.

Born again is a term only mentioned in John. That churches focus on that point is due to the, in my view, unfortunate legacy from Billy Graham.

You can understand John's specific emphasis on being born again, as inextricably linked to Israel's relationship with God.

Their father, Abraham, was barren. Naturally, at his ripe old age, he could no longer have children.

God had to supernaturally intervene in his life to enable him to give birth to Issac.

Thru Issac, thru Jacob, thru his 12 sons, the nation literally came into existence.

Exodus 4:22 had a very insightful verse about this

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

This was reinforced in Jeremiah 31:9

9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

God considered Israel his first born son. They literally became a nation when God supernaturally rescued them from Egypt, separating the waters in the ocean until all of them literally cross over the water in dry land.

But as we all know, Israel broke their covenant of Law that was given at Mount Sinai. They killed or ignored all the prophets that God repeatedly sent to them when they were separated into 2 kingdoms and went into captivity under Babylon, and then under Persia.

Jesus used the parable of the tenants, one of my favorite parables to understand his first coming on Earth to Israel, in all 3 synoptic gospels. (Matthew 21:33-46; Mark 12:1-12; Luke 20:9-19) to illustrate this.

When Jesus and the 12 were preaching from Matt-John, they need to repent of rejecting God their Father in the OT, and believe in his Son is their promised King and Messiah, as foretold by their prophets.

God had mercy on them even when they killed his prophets (e.g. 2 Chronicles 24:20-22; Jeremiah 26:20-30; cf. Luke 13:34; Acts 7:52)., and is now sending his very own Son to Israel, to do a final persuasion to Israel to repent and believe in him.

If they do, as Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3, Israel will be born again.

That is why Paul never mentioned the necessity of being born again to us gentiles. That concept is irrelevant to us.

 

[RandyPNW]

Then do you believe 1 John 5:18 that says , We know that whosoever is BORN of God SINNETH NOT // and the word

NOT // MU , is a SUBJUNCTIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE and means , you can never sin ever again !!

Need a verse for the salvation FORMULA , as I have never heard of it ??

dan p

Hi Dan. Many years ago I had the ability to memorize entire letters of the Bible. I only memorized a few, but then quit. One of the books I memorized was 1 John. It is in this book that I read what you are alluding to. I memorized from the RSV...

1 John 3.9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. RSV
1 John 5.18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them. NIV

Though like you I took this literally I later had to adjust my sense of it. It cannot be speaking of literal perfection, but rather, of *biblical perfection," because in 1 John 1 John condemned Christians who claimed to be sinless and perfect in that sense.

After studying for some years I came to recognize that when Jesus said, "Be ye perfect," he was not speaking of sinless perfection, but rather, of a proper application of righteous standards as opposed to devious ways of pretending to be righteous. To properly offer an animal sacrifice to God under the Law one must be "perfect," and offer an unblemished sacrifice. Everybody knows that no animal is completely "unblemished," but it is the matter of giving something relatively unblemished in such a way as to give something that is valuable to the one who offers it.

This verse became very special to me in my Christian life because it suggested a kind of righteousness that I had not been raised with. I had been raised from birth on the 10 Commandments, but carried them out without a recognizable spirituality guiding me in every situation. Sometimes I was good, and sometimes I was bad. But I wrote off the bad part as a "mistake" or something "forgiven." I did not see it as evidence that I was not being led by the Spirit on a regular basis.

I did not even recognize God's love prompting me to "love my enemies," serve my elders, and otherwise serve the Lord by testifying to Him. I simply avoided doing bad things, which is hardly putting on the righteousness of Christ.

So John put it in such a way that I recognized there must be a real change in living out our lives in righteousness, by being "perfect." That is, we must yield a kind of perfection that is not just good in our own eyes, but also acceptable to God.

To be this kind of "perfect" requires that we be Born Again and forfeit our carnality for a continual life guided by the Holy Spirit. We cannot just do good sometimes, and do bad at other times. We must live by God's love as it is reealed to our minds every day.

This life comes only after we recognize what it means for Christ to be our sacrifice and substitute, and we put on his life as a New Life in place of our Old Life. This is how I came to own these verses for my own.

So now I read it more intelligibly, "No one born of God continues to *practice sin.*
That is, although we remain affected by the Sin Nature within us, it need not rule over us, now that we've received New Life from Christ.

We aren't "sinners" in the sense we practice sin. We are only sinners in the sense we're still influenced by sin within us--something that we are able to overcome.

 

[soldier of light]

Hi Dan. Many years ago I had the ability to memorize entire letters of the Bible. I only memorized a few, but then quit. One of the books I memorized was 1 John. It is in this book that I read what you are alluding to. I memorized from the RSV...

1 John 3.9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. RSV
1 John 5.18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them. NIV

Though like you I took this literally I later had to adjust my sense of it. It cannot be speaking of literal perfection, but rather, of *biblical perfection," because in 1 John 1 John condemned Christians who claimed to be sinless and perfect in that sense.

After studying for some years I came to recognize that when Jesus said, "Be ye perfect," he was not speaking of sinless perfection, but rather, of a proper application of righteous standards as opposed to devious ways of pretending to be righteous. To properly offer an animal sacrifice to God under the Law one must be "perfect," and offer an unblemished sacrifice. Everybody knows that no animal is completely "unblemished," but it is the matter of giving something relatively unblemished in such a way as to give something that is valuable to the one who offers it.

This verse became very special to me in my Christian life because it suggested a kind of righteousness that I had not been raised with. I had been raised from birth on the 10 Commandments, but carried them out without a recognizable spirituality guiding me in every situation. Sometimes I was good, and sometimes I was bad. But I wrote off the bad part as a "mistake" or something "forgiven." I did not see it as evidence that I was not being led by the Spirit on a regular basis.

I did not even recognize God's love prompting me to "love my enemies," serve my elders, and otherwise serve the Lord by testifying to Him. I simply avoided doing bad things, which is hardly putting on the righteousness of Christ.

So John put it in such a way that I recognized there must be a real change in living out our lives in righteousness, by being "perfect." That is, we must yield a kind of perfection that is not just good in our own eyes, but also acceptable to God.

To be this kind of "perfect" requires that we be Born Again and forfeit our carnality for a continual life guided by the Holy Spirit. We cannot just do good sometimes, and do bad at other times. We must live by God's love as it is reealed to our minds every day.

This life comes only after we recognize what it means for Christ to be our sacrifice and substitute, and we put on his life as a New Life in place of our Old Life. This is how I came to own these verses for my own.

So now I read it more intelligibly, "No one born of God continues to *practice sin.*
That is, although we remain affected by the Sin Nature within us, it need not rule over us, now that we've received New Life from Christ.

We aren't "sinners" in the sense we practice sin. We are only sinners in the sense we're still influenced by sin within us--something that we are able to overcome.

I believe we can stop sinning. Maybe we make a mistake and have an argument or something, but we can be forgiven. I can't see me going back to my sin however.

 

[Dan Perez]

Hi Dan. Many years ago I had the ability to memorize entire letters of the Bible. I only memorized a few, but then quit. One of the books I memorized was 1 John. It is in this book that I read what you are alluding to. I memorized from the RSV...

1 John 3.9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. RSV
1 John 5.18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them. NIV

Though like you I took this literally I later had to adjust my sense of it. It cannot be speaking of literal perfection, but rather, of *biblical perfection," because in 1 John 1 John condemned Christians who claimed to be sinless and perfect in that sense.

After studying for some years I came to recognize that when Jesus said, "Be ye perfect," he was not speaking of sinless perfection, but rather, of a proper application of righteous standards as opposed to devious ways of pretending to be righteous. To properly offer an animal sacrifice to God under the Law one must be "perfect," and offer an unblemished sacrifice. Everybody knows that no animal is completely "unblemished," but it is the matter of giving something relatively unblemished in such a way as to give something that is valuable to the one who offers it.

This verse became very special to me in my Christian life because it suggested a kind of righteousness that I had not been raised with. I had been raised from birth on the 10 Commandments, but carried them out without a recognizable spirituality guiding me in every situation. Sometimes I was good, and sometimes I was bad. But I wrote off the bad part as a "mistake" or something "forgiven." I did not see it as evidence that I was not being led by the Spirit on a regular basis.

I did not even recognize God's love prompting me to "love my enemies," serve my elders, and otherwise serve the Lord by testifying to Him. I simply avoided doing bad things, which is hardly putting on the righteousness of Christ.

So John put it in such a way that I recognized there must be a real change in living out our lives in righteousness, by being "perfect." That is, we must yield a kind of perfection that is not just good in our own eyes, but also acceptable to God.

To be this kind of "perfect" requires that we be Born Again and forfeit our carnality for a continual life guided by the Holy Spirit. We cannot just do good sometimes, and do bad at other times. We must live by God's love as it is reealed to our minds every day.

This life comes only after we recognize what it means for Christ to be our sacrifice and substitute, and we put on his life as a New Life in place of our Old Life. This is how I came to own these verses for my own.

So now I read it more intelligibly, "No one born of God continues to *practice sin.*
That is, although we remain affected by the Sin Nature within us, it need not rule over us, now that we've received New Life from Christ.

We aren't "sinners" in the sense we practice sin. We are only sinners in the sense we're still influenced by sin within us--something that we are able to overcome.

And that is what the Greek says and what verse it say ( CONTINUE TO PRACTICE SIN ?? Just asking >

And says the WATER BAPTISM also saves and quote Mark 16:16 !!

Do you believe John 2:3 and 5 !!

What about Rom 10: 9 ??

Or Eph2:8 and the best to you !!

dan p

 

[RandyPNW]

I believe we can stop sinning. Maybe we make a mistake and have an argument or something, but we can be forgiven. I can't see me going back to my sin however.

I agree. That's the essence of Christian Righteousness, I believe.. We have a new heart, and don't to do wrong, although we slip up time and again--hopefully in smaller ways.

A saint, motivated by the Spirit of Christ, does not go out and murder people, saying he couldn't help himself! But a saint, with good motives, can be tempted by bad people around him or by his own carnal instincts, and occasionally do things out of sort with the Christian witness.

Yes, these are forgiven when we confess and go back to living in love. The important thing is to get on the pathway of righteousness, or what Isaiah called, "the highway of holiness."

Unless you've accepted Christ as your substitute and have begun to live this out, I don't think anybody can truly say they're living the righteous life before God. The world may not see your life as righteous, but God will. This is the essence of being "Born Again."

 

[Dan Perez]

I agree. That's the essence of Christian Righteousness, I believe.. We have a new heart, and don't to do wrong, although we slip up time and again--hopefully in smaller ways.

A saint, motivated by the Spirit of Christ, does not go out and murder people, saying he couldn't help himself! But a saint, with good motives, can be tempted by bad people around him or by his own carnal instincts, and occasionally do things out of sort with the Christian witness.

Yes, these are forgiven when we confess and go back to living in love. The important thing is to get on the pathway of righteousness, or what Isaiah called, "the highway of holiness."

Unless you've accepted Christ as your substitute and have begun to live this out, I don't think anybody can truly say they're living the righteous life before God. The world may not see your life as righteous, but God will. This is the essence of being "Born Again."

So you can STOP SINNING and .everyone would like to do that and where is a verse in the bible ?

Are you speaking about 1 John 5:18 ??

dan p

 

[RandyPNW]

So you can STOP SINNING and .everyone would like to do that and where is a verse in the bible ?

Are you speaking about 1 John 5:18 ??

dan p

I'm saying you can stop living an unregenerate lifestyle, which is living life, good or bad, on our own whims and choices. Yes, unregenerate people can still be informed, subconsciously, by God's Spirit, to do good things. But this is not living a consistently righteous life.

When we are "walking in righteousness" we have accepted Christ as our substitute. So we must move beyond living life independent of God to living life exclusively in dependence upon the Spirit.

When we do this we are "walking in righteousness." It is a regular way of living because Christ has come to reside, permanently, in our being. Our hearts are informed by his love constantly.

Do we always live by the love that is in us? No. But when we sin by being rude, or whatever, yes--we can stop the sinning.

1 John 1 says that even though we're regenerated, or Born Again, we still have sin in us and do sin. But 1 John 3 and 5 says that having received the Spirit of life in us as a permanent resident we do not normally "practice Sin." Instead, we practice Righteousness.

 

[Dan Perez]

I'm saying you can stop living an unregenerate lifestyle, which is living life, good or bad, on our own whims and choices. Yes, unregenerate people can still be informed, subconsciously, by God's Spirit, to do good things. But this is not living a consistently righteous life.

When we are "walking in righteousness" we have accepted Christ as our substitute. So we must move beyond living life independent of God to living life exclusively in dependence upon the Spirit.

When we do this we are "walking in righteousness." It is a regular way of living because Christ has come to reside, permanently, in our being. Our hearts are informed by his love constantly.

Do we always live by the love that is in us? No. But when we sin by being rude, or whatever, yes--we can stop the sinning.

1 John 1 says that even though we're regenerated, or Born Again, we still have sin in us and do sin. But 1 John 3 and 5 says that having received the Spirit of life in us as a permanent resident we do not normally "practice Sin." Instead, we practice Righteousness.

And the APOSTLE to the GENTILES had these WORDS to say in Romans 7: 14--25 is to long at this time

and here is the REAL TRUTH !!

dan p

 

[Guojing]

I'm saying you can stop living an unregenerate lifestyle, which is living life, good or bad, on our own whims and choices. Yes, unregenerate people can still be informed, subconsciously, by God's Spirit, to do good things. But this is not living a consistently righteous life.

When we are "walking in righteousness" we have accepted Christ as our substitute. So we must move beyond living life independent of God to living life exclusively in dependence upon the Spirit.

When we do this we are "walking in righteousness." It is a regular way of living because Christ has come to reside, permanently, in our being. Our hearts are informed by his love constantly.

Do we always live by the love that is in us? No. But when we sin by being rude, or whatever, yes--we can stop the sinning.

1 John 1 says that even though we're regenerated, or Born Again, we still have sin in us and do sin. But 1 John 3 and 5 says that having received the Spirit of life in us as a permanent resident we do not normally "practice Sin." Instead, we practice Righteousness.

So you believe today, one can be saved but not born again?

What is the difference as far as Paul is concerned?

 

[RandyPNW]

And the APOSTLE to the GENTILES had these WORDS to say in Romans 7: 14--25 is to long at this time

and here is the REAL TRUTH !!

dan p

Absolutely! In our Christian mind we want to serve the Law, ie Christ. But we often find we do not do what our mind wants to do.

Therefore, it is sin within us prompting us to go against what our mind wants to do. But we can be delivered from this compulsion to rebel by turning to the Spirit of Christ, who can give us victory over Sin within us.

 

[Dan Perez]

I'm having a difficult time with this, Dan! It may help if you re-send with corrections?
I cannot say, however, that "only Israel is Born Again." While it is true that Jesus said this while still under the Law, when Israel alone was in focus, it does not mean that it does not apply under the New Covenant and to non-Jews. Peter certainly taught it as all-encompassing, although in his letters he also speaks directly to Jewish believers.

To be born of "water and the Spirit" refers to being born from above, or from heaven, in order to partake of the Spirit in a new way. I believe the OT saints should've understood being "born again" in the sense that they did partake of the Holy Spirit through the ever-abiding word of God. But John the Baptist inferred that Jesus was going to take this a step further, which we now know means that this "rebirth" results in Salvation under the New Covenant of Christ.

We are initially born from the womb, which is what "water" refers to, I think. Then we are born from something above this material plane, through God Himself in heaven. The word of God, originating from heaven, not only abides with our conscience, but comes to permanently reside in us when we are reborn through the Holy Spirit in conjunction with the work of Christ.

It's pretty simple, but I probably over-complicate it.

And Israel is all but gone !!

In EZE 37 : 15: 28 we see TWO STICKS , remember these two names , JUDAH and ISAREL , and they will become

ONE STICK and this when these two stick will become ONE STICK , then that one STICK will be BORN AGAIN !!

So read Eze chapters 36 and 37 and believe what the words of Christ !!

Eze 36:25 38 is all about the NEW COVENANT !!

So read and take your time reading and you will become a WARRIOR ! as most do not know what the NEW COVENANT

really means ? best to you ,, believe it or Not

dan p

 

[RandyPNW]

And Israel is all but gone !!

In EZE 37 : 15: 28 we see TWO STICKS , remember these two names , JUDAH and ISAREL , and they will become

ONE STICK and this when these two stick will become ONE STICK , then that one STICK will be BORN AGAIN !!

So read Eze chapters 36 and 37 and believe what the words of Christ !!

Eze 36:25 38 is all about the NEW COVENANT !!

So read and take your time reading and you will become a WARRIOR ! as most do not know what the NEW COVENANT

really means ? best to you ,, believe it or Not

dan p

I'm just not following you, Dan. Sorry.

 

[Guojing]

I'm just not following you, Dan. Sorry.

I think he is saying that the New Covenant will also be made with the nation of Israel (Hebrews 8:8)

So your point "it does not mean that it does not apply under the New Covenant and to non-Jews." is irrelevant for today

 

[RandyPNW]

I think he is saying that the New Covenant will also be made with the nation of Israel (Hebrews 8:8)

So your point "it does not mean that it does not apply under the New Covenant and to non-Jews." is irrelevant for today

It may be that's what he is saying--it just is unclear to me. I think he is saying that only Israel is born again in the sense that there is now a new "Israel," a "Replacement Israel" consisting of Jews and Gentiles. But I can't say for sure..

 

[Guojing]

It may be that's what he is saying--it just is unclear to me. I think he is saying that only Israel is born again in the sense that there is now a new "Israel," a "Replacement Israel" consisting of Jews and Gentiles. But I can't say for sure..

Yes, only Israel can be born again.

Currently they have fallen, but once Jesus return for them, the entire nation at that point of time will be "born again" (Romans 11:25-27).

 

[soldier of light]

Yes, only Israel can be born again.

John said that whoever loves has been born of God. Are you saying we are grafted into Israel and born again?

 

[Guojing]

John said that whoever loves has been born of God. Are you saying we are grafted into Israel and born again?

John was also speaking to the circumcised, by Galatians 2:7-9.

But to address your last sentence, once the Tribulation begins and God resumes his program with Israel (Romans 11:25), then yes, any unbelieving gentile must once again be grafted with Israel, in order to be saved.

So 1 John will certainly apply during the Tribulation.

 

[soldier of light]

We are grafted into Israel.

 

[Guojing]

We are grafted into Israel.

Then you have to reconcile that with Romans 11:11.

 

[soldier of light]

Then you have to reconcile that with Romans 11:11.

Why? It's no contradiction. I don't understand