Lies - How to see Them

[Job 33:6]

@CoreyD

If you don't think that is Samuels physical body, then who's spirit do you think that it is that came out of the earth?

It doesn't say that it is Satan.

1 Samuel 28:7, 11, 13-15 ESV
[7] Then Saul said to his servants, “Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “Behold, there is a medium at En-dor.”
[11] Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” He said, “Bring up Samuel for me.”
[13] The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.” [14] He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage. [15] Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.”

The passage gives no indication that the spirit that was summoned is anyone but Samuel. In fact, the Bible simply states that it is Samuel. It doesn't say that it is a demon in disguise or anything like that.

The Bible very plainly states what is going on here. There is no ambiguity.

 

[Job 33:6]

@CoreyD
Here is the NIV, in case it helps with understanding the nature of the elohim:

1 Samuel 28:7-15 NIV
[7] Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.” “There is one in Endor,” they said. [8] So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.” [9] But the woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?” [10] Saul swore to her by the Lord, “As surely as the Lord lives, you will not be punished for this.” [11] Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” “Bring up Samuel,” he said. [12] When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!” [13] The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?” The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.” [14] “What does he look like?” he asked. “An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. [15] Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” “I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”

The NIV simply refers to it as a "ghostly figure".

An elohim is simply a spirit. That's all.

1 Samuel 28:7-15 Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.” “There is one in Endor,” they said. So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at nig | New International Version (NIV

Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.” “There is one in Endor,” they said. So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at nig

bible.com

The meaning of the text is so plain, it really can't be disputed. Saul finds a medium, the medium asks what spirit Saul wants to consult with. Saul requests that it is samuel. The medium "brings up" this "ghostly figure" that is "Samuel".

And Samuel speaks to Saul.

And that's it.

And they even talk about Samuels cloths. The text is making very clear that indeed, this spirit is Samuel. This ghostly figure that has come up from the earth.

The Bible says what it says and either you can accept the Bible, or you can't. It's that simple.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I am not aware of Jesus ever saying that this spirit was not Samuel. The Bible plainly says that it was Samuel.

No Jesus didn't say anything of the sort. That's not what I was trying to point out.

Ill just shut up since no one can understand me.

 

[Job 33:6]

No Jesus didn't say anything of the sort. That's not what I was trying to point out.

Jesus settled the idea of the resurrection... Something Samaritan's disagreed with.

Oh I see. That's ok.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Oh I see. That's ok.

I just assume if there's just death and nothing beyond (no consciousness) then there's no resurrection because there's nothing to ressurect (no consciousness).

There's either a consciousness to resurrect and judge or there's not.

Jesus said there was, and that it is conscious after death.

 

[Job 33:6]

I just assume if there's just death and nothing beyond (no consciousness) then there's no resurrection because there's nothing to ressurect (no consciousness).

There's either a consciousness to resurrect and judge or there's not.

Yea absolutely.

I would point out that, even if someone believes these passages to be poetry, they still very plainly describes spirits of the dead. The Bible is very plainly clear about it. So I'm not sure why @CoreyD seems to be resisting.

 

[CoreyD]

The text states, that Samuel spoke with Saul. It does not say that Samuel was not dead at the time.

Thank you for being clear, and answering the questions specifically.
So, was Samuel dead? A clear and specific answer to the question, would also be appreciated.
It can be yes, no, I don't know.

Does the Bible tell us if Samuel was dead?
The same as above. Thank you.

 

[CoreyD]

Yes. And an elohim is a spirit. The woman is saying that she sees a spirit coming up from beneath the earth.

Thank you.
The woman... The woman is saying, she sees a spirit.
Not just any woman. A witch - a sorcerer - a condemned sinner that God had eradicated from the land. A rebellious opposer of God, who got involved with demons, said she saw a spirit coming out the earth... and you believe it was Samuel's spirit.
Thank you. Did I say something inaccurate?

Let's look at what it says.

Again... How many times are we going to look at it?
Will it change, the more we look at it?

1 Samuel 28:7-8, 11, 13-15 ESV
[7] Then Saul said to his servants, “Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “Behold, there is a medium at En-dor.” [8] So Saul disguised himself and put on other garments and went, he and two men with him. And they came to the woman by night. And he said, “Divine for me by a spirit and bring up for me whomever I shall name to you.”
[11] Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” He said, “Bring up Samuel for me.”
[13] The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god [elohim] coming up out of the earth.” [14] He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage. [15] Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.”

Are you not able to see what I have in bold? Maybe you don't know what an elohim is?

Saul identifies a medium. Which are people that speak to spirits.

People that speak to spirits???
Can you be more specific? What do you mean by spirits?
The only spirits mentioned in the Bible that are gods, are angels. Do you mean people that communicate with angelic beings, and if not, please show me a verse of a medium communicating with a spirit, other than angels

1 Samuel 28 does not count.

Saul asks the medium to bring up "a spirit" from the earth.

He did not.
Great rocks! You just quoted the text J.
Where did you see "from the earth"?
Please do not add or take away from what is written.

The medium asks, "who shall I bring up for you?"

Saul says "Samuel". Now Samuels physical body isn't even in this town. Samuel was buried miles away, so we know that it's not talking about a physical body.

1 Samuel 28:3-4, 6-7 ESV
[3] Now Samuel had died, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in Ramah, his own city. And Saul had put the mediums and the necromancers out of the land. [4] The Philistines assembled and came and encamped at Shunem. And Saul gathered all Israel, and they encamped at Gilboa.
[6] And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by dreams, or by Urim, or by prophets. [7] Then Saul said to his servants, “Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “Behold, there is a medium at En-dor.”

Samuel was buried in Ramah. Saul is over in Gilboa.

Now Samuel had died, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in Ramah
Okay, cool. So Samuel is dead.
Do you disagree?

Please answer the question, and do not attack me for asking a simple question.

The medium summons Samuel and says "I see an elohim" which is a spirit. That's what elohim are in the old testament.

No please.
Where in the Bible do you read the medium summons Samuel?
No scripture says that. Please stick to the truth that is recorded, and refrain from adding your ideas.

And Samuel speaks to Saul and asks "why have you brought me up?

@CoreyD
And your response is:
"Well it must be talking about samuels physical body"

Ok, well, when you're ready to be honest about the Bible, I'll be here.

And yes, Samuels spirit spoke to Saul. That's what it says.

Will you speak the truth please.
Lying is not from God.

The Bible nowhere says "Samuels spirit spoke to Saul."
That is false.

You cannot find a single place to quote me saying "Well it must be talking about samuels physical body"
I would never write samuels. Samuel, starts with a Capital S, and does not end with s. An apostrophe s would be required.
I also was not be so foolish as to think that a person is talking to a body, in the Bible.
So, that is also false.

The thread is about lies, and how to see them.
Do you see those two lies, or are you unable to see them?
If you cannot see them, please consider reviewing the OP, for the reason why.

 

[CoreyD]

Yea absolutely.

I would point out that, even if someone believes these passages to be poetry, they still very plainly describes spirits of the dead. The Bible is very plainly clear about it. So I'm not sure why @CoreyD seems to be resisting.

No one is saying this text is poetic.
You sure come up with a lot of ideas.

I am not resisting the Bible.
That absolutely is not seen here.

I am showing how the Bible refute the lie that there are spirits of the dead, and you seem to be having a hard time using a scripture you chose to try to support the idea... without attacking Corey.
Hopefully, that won't repeat.

 

[Job 33:6]

Thank you for being clear, and answering the questions specifically.
So, was Samuel dead? A clear and specific answer to the question, would also be appreciated.
It can be yes, no, I don't know.

Does the Bible tell us if Samuel was dead?
The same as above. Thank you.

Yes, he was dead.

1 Samuel 28:3 ESV
[3] Now Samuel had died, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in Ramah, his own city. And Saul had put the mediums and the necromancers out of the land.

Thank you.
The woman... The woman is saying, she sees a spirit.
Not just any woman. A witch - a sorcerer - a condemned sinner that God had eradicated from the land. A rebellious opposer of God, who got involved with demons, said she saw a spirit coming out the earth... and you believe it was Samuel's spirit.
Thank you. Did I say something inaccurate?

The Bible gives no indication that this spirit is anyone but Samuel himself. It doesn't mention any demons. It just says that it is Samuel that is speaking to Saul.

People that speak to spirits???
Can you be more specific? What do you mean by spirits?

Supernatural beings.

The only spirits mentioned in the Bible that are gods, are angels. Do you mean people that communicate with angelic beings, and if not, please show me a verse of a medium communicating with a spirit, other than angels.

That's not true. Elohim are any spirit being, they can be spirits of the dead, angels, demons, or even the angel of the Lord, as well as the gods of the nations etc.

Pagan gods for example, in 1 kings 11:33 are elohim.

1 Kings 11:33 ESV
[33] because they have forsaken me and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of Moab, and Milcom the god of the Ammonites, and they have not walked in my ways, doing what is right in my sight and keeping my statutes and my rules, as David his father did.

1 Samuel 28 does not count.

Who do you think it is, aside from Samuel, that Saul is speaking to in this passage?

1 Samuel 28:3, 7-15 NIV
[3] Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land.
[7] Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.” “There is one in Endor,” they said. [8] So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.” [9] But the woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?” [10] Saul swore to her by the Lord, “As surely as the Lord lives, you will not be punished for this.” [11] Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” “Bring up Samuel,” he said. [12] When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!” [13] The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?” The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.” [14] “What does he look like?” he asked. “An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. [15] Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” “I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”

 

[CoreyD]

No Jesus didn't say anything of the sort. That's not what I was trying to point out.

Ill just shut up since no one can understand me.

I can understand you, so please feel free to speak.

 

[Job 33:6]

People that speak to spirits???
Can you be more specific? What do you mean by spirits?
The only spirits mentioned in the Bible that are gods, are angels.

Deuteronomy 32:17 NASB1995
[17] They sacrificed to demons who were not God, To gods [elohim] whom they have not known, New gods who came lately, Whom your fathers did not dread.

Here is another verse that reflects on people worshipping demons that are elohim.

 

[CoreyD]

Yes, he was dead.

1 Samuel 28:3 ESV
[3] Now Samuel had died, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in Ramah, his own city. And Saul had put the mediums and the necromancers out of the land.

The Bible gives no indication that this spirit is anyone but Samuel himself. It doesn't mention any demons. It just says that it is Samuel that is speaking to Saul.

So, you are saying that Samuel is dead, and yet Samuel is speaking to Saul.
So these scriptures are wrong, and has no validity.

Ecclesiastes 9:4-10​

4 But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.​

5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun.​

7 Go, eat your bread with joy, And drink your wine with a merry heart; For God has already accepted your works.
8 Let your garments always be white, And let your head lack no oil.​

9 Live joyfully with the wife whom you love all the days of your vain life which He has given you under the sun, all your days of vanity; for that is your portion in life, and in the labor which you perform under the sun.​

10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave [Sheol] where you are going.​

​

Is that the truth? You decide.​

For me... it is indeed the truth, and is supported by the following:​

​

Psalm 146:4​

His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.​

​

Psalm 115:17​

The dead do not praise the LORD, Nor do any who go down into silence;​

​

Psalm 104:29​

You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust.​

​

Psalm 88:10​

Do you show your wonders to the dead? Do their spirits rise up and praise you?​

​

Ecclesiastes 12:7​

then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.​

According to you,

• The dead are conscious, and has knowledge in Sheol.
• Their spirit does not return to God, and they do not need God to give them the spirit, in order to live.

Is that correct?

Supernatural beings.


That's not true. Elohim are any spirit being, they can be spirits of the dead, angels, demons, or even the angel of the Lord, as well as the gods of the nations etc.

Pagan gods for example, in 1 kings 11:33 are elohim.

1 Kings 11:33 ESV
[33] because they have forsaken me and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of Moab, and Milcom the god of the Ammonites, and they have not walked in my ways, doing what is right in my sight and keeping my statutes and my rules, as David his father did.

You just specifically said the spirits people communicate with are supernatural beings.
Now you are saying that gods can be spirits of the dead.
I seem to be getting mixed answers, but regardless, please provide the scripture that says mediums communicate with spirits other than angels.
1 Kings 11:33 is not about spirits.

 

[Job 33:6]

No one is saying this text is poetic.
You sure come up with a lot of ideas.

I am not resisting the Bible.
That absolutely is not seen here.

I am showing how the Bible refute the lie that there are spirits of the dead, and you seem to be having a hard time using a scripture you chose to try to support the idea... without attacking Corey.
Hopefully, that won't repeat.

You are resisting it. Your not acknowledging that the following passage describes an underworld where undead spirits converse with one another:

Isaiah 14:9-11 NIV
[9] The realm of the dead below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you— all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones— all those who were kings over the nations. [10] They will all respond, they will say to you, “You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us.” [11] All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.

 

[CoreyD]

Deuteronomy 32:17 NASB1995
[17] They sacrificed to demons who were not God, To gods [elohim] whom they have not known, New gods who came lately, Whom your fathers did not dread.

Here is another verse that reflects on people worshipping demons that are elohim.

Yes, that is not the problem.
I am asking for a scripture that says mediums communicate with spirits other than angels.
Demons are wicked angels, are they not?

 

[Job 33:6]

You just specifically said the spirits people communicate with are supernatural beings.
Now you are saying that gods can be spirits of the dead.
I seem to be getting mixed answers, but regardless, please provide the scripture that says mediums communicate with spirits other than angels.
1 Kings 11:33 is not about spirits.

Incorrect:

1 kings 11:33 explicitly identified those gods as elohim (spirits, the same word used to describe Samuel, hence why the ESV calls Samuel a "god").

1 Kings 11:33 Hebrew Text Analysis

And I'm not giving you mixed answers, you just aren't keeping up with the subject. Perhaps you're new to old testament studies.

In the old testament, spirits of the dead, like Samuel, are gods (elohim). And the ESV is explicit about this.

You're probably confusing "gods" with a 21st century understanding, rather than understanding the meaning of "elohim".

In fact, "Elohim" is the Hebrew word for God (the Father) and it's the same word used to describe Samuel in 1 Samuel.

1 Samuel 28:13 ESV
[13] The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.”

That's what elohim is, it is "god" but really in modern English (thought for thought translation, not word for word) it just means "spirit". Which is why the NIV translates it as "ghostly figure".

 

[Job 33:6]

Yes, that is not the problem.
I am asking for a scripture that says mediums communicate with spirits other than angels.
Demons are wicked angels, are they not?

Elohim are just spirit beings. Angels, demons, other pagan deities. It's just a generic term for spirit being. That includes all of the above. Angels, demons, and pagan deities, Samuels spirit. All of the above.

 

[Job 33:6]

Yes, that is not the problem.
I am asking for a scripture that says mediums communicate with spirits other than angels.
Demons are wicked angels, are they not?

There is no distinguishing term between angels and gods in the old testament. They're all just elohim. Samuel is never called an angel, if that's the angle that you're trying to take. He's just Samuel. He's not an angel. He's not a demon either. He simply is himself.

 

[Job 33:6]

According to you,

• The dead are conscious, and has knowledge in Sheol.
• Their spirit does not return to God, and they do not need God to give them the spirit, in order to live.

Is that correct?

In the Bible, depending on what book you're in and what context the book is written in, there are spirits of the undead and they communicate with one another. Whether you want to call that consciousness or not is up to you. But that's what it is.

It is what it is. I really have no idea why you can't just accept the text as it is. What is bothering you about this?

Isaiah 14:9–11 presents a vivid, poetic depiction of Sheol that seems to go beyond the concept of the common grave. To answer this question, we need to examine the text and its context carefully.

1. Isaiah 14:9–11 Overview
These verses are part of a taunt against the king of Babylon, describing his downfall and what happens when he descends into Sheol. The passage says:

"Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations. All of them will answer and say to you: 'You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!'" (Isaiah 14:9–10, ESV).
The imagery continues with descriptions of maggots and worms as his bedding (verse 11).
2. Why Not the Common Grave?
Isaiah 14:9–11 is not speaking about the common grave (a simple burial site) because the passage:

Personifies Sheol: The text portrays Sheol as an active, almost living realm that "stirs up" and "rouses" its inhabitants to greet the fallen king.
Describes Interaction: The "shades" (spirits of the dead, often called rephaim) interact with the king, mocking his loss of power. This suggests an ongoing existence of these spirits in Sheol, not simply lifeless corpses in a grave.
Involves Leaders and Kings: The passage emphasizes that former rulers in Sheol acknowledge the king’s arrival, creating a dramatic contrast between his earthly glory and his posthumous humiliation.
If Sheol were merely the common grave, these elements—awareness, activity, and communication—would not make sense.

3. How Does This Differ from Other Inanimate References?

In many other passages, Sheol or the grave is described as a silent, inactive place where no one praises God or engages in activity (e.g., Psalm 6:5, Ecclesiastes 9:10). However, Isaiah 14:9–11 is different because:

It uses poetic and metaphorical language to emphasize the humiliation of the Babylonian king.

The imagery of stirring and greeting is symbolic, meant to highlight the reversal of the king’s fortune rather than provide a literal description of Sheol.

This passage leans into dramatic irony, contrasting the king’s previous arrogance with his ultimate weakness, even in death.

 

[Job 33:6]

1 kings 11:33 explicitly identified those gods as elohim (spirits, the same word used to describe Samuel, hence why the ESV calls Samuel a "god").

1 Kings 11:33 Hebrew Text Analysis

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

@CoreyD

Here is 1 kings in Hebrew so that you can see:

The pagan deities are elohim. And that same term, elohim also is found in 1 Samuel 28 and is used to describe Samuels spirit of Samuel himself. Because he is appearing to Saul as a supernatural being. Which is why the ESV refers to Samuel as a "god".

1 Samuel 28:13 ESV
[13] The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.”

The NIV translates it in less literal terms as a "ghostly figure"

1 Samuel 28:13 NIV
[13] The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?” The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.”

But it's the same thing. It's just this woman saying that she sees a spirit being.

And who is that being? Well, the Bible tells us plainly:

1 Samuel 28:11-15 NIV
[11] Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” “Bring up Samuel,” he said. [12] When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!” [13] The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?” The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.” [14] “What does he look like?” he asked. “An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. [15] Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” “I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”

The Bible repeats it over and over and over again. Saul knows it's Samuel, the woman calls him Samuel, and the Bible just flat out says that it is Samuel when it says "Samuel said".

It doesn't say "an angel in disguise as Samuel, said"

It doesn't mention angels or demons or anything else. It's just Samuel in spirit form. It's him. He is back from the underworld. And his body is buried in a town miles away. So it's not like his physical body has risen. This is Samuel in spirit form.

And the Bible can't say it any more plainly.

And you're resisting this. And I'm not sure why. The Bible need not have 1 context and 1 definition for any given thing. In one book of the Bible, a tree can be a regular tree, in another book, a tree can talk and clap it's hands.

That's how the Bible is. It consists of dozens of books written over several centuries. It's ok for the Bible to speak about different topics in different ways.