VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[keras]

What 2 Th 2:1-3 are solely about is the pre-Trib timing of the rapture.

Nonsense:
Paul is talking about the glorious Return.

That letter stated that they had missed the rapture and were in the Trib.

That letter; a rumour, says nothing about anyone being raptured.

Your fixation on a rapture, leads you into serious error and confusion.
There just is no proof text of a rapture to heaven. It is a lie from the father of lies.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

What 2 Th 2:1-3 are solely about is the pre-Trib timing of the rapture. There is no “gathering unto Him” (2 Th 2:1) in connection with the 2A (2nd Advent). You might claim that Matt 24:31 is one. No, it doesn’t account for where that gathering ends up. Best guesses are Rev 19:14 or Matt 25:32-40.

The important fact is, Paul was raising the topic of the rapture in 2 Th 2:1. That establishes the immediate context.

In 2 Th 2:2, Paul cites the deception suffered by his Thessalonian flock. They received a fraudulent letter, made to appear to be from Paul. That letter stated that they had missed the rapture and were in the Trib.

2 Th 2:3 answers to that deception by specifically stating that the Trib (Day of the Lord) won’t come unless the apostasia comes first.

Verses 1 cites the rapture then verse 2 cites the fraudulent letter. Verse 3 corrects his flock: the Trib can’t be because the apostasia occurs, first.

The main context of these three verses is the rapture (verse 1). The only definition of apostasia (in verse 3) that applies is “departure; disappearance,” meaning “physical departure.”

Those are the basic facts of those three verses. But, I let the Bible provide the proof, and the proof is in those early versions of 2 Th 2:1-3 (before KJV came along).

Did you know thst “falling away” did not appear in 2 Th 2:3 until the first KJV Bible in 1611? Here’s what else: The folks at KJV wouldn’t say why they made that sea change in verse 3 back then, and they still won’t say why, to this day.

They weren’t the first to monkey with 2 Th 2:3; the Douay–Rheims Bible of 1582 was the first. That’s where “revolt” first appeared in 2 Th 2:3. The Roman Catholics are rabid antagonists to the pre-Trib rapture. But, their “rapture” at Matt 24:31 is not the rapture. It never gets off the ground. The point is, the early Bibles got it right. The modern Bibles are a reflection of the hatred of the pre-Trib rapture. Who really has Hell to pay on Judgment Day, are those who altered 2 Th 2:3 with propaganda.

Paul first wrote about the pre-Trib timing of the rapture in 1 Th 1:10. The fact of God’s wrath beginning no later than the 2nd seal, confirms the truth of the pre-Trib timing of the rapture (1 Th 4:16-17).

The pre-Trib rapture is the next prophesied event that will occur.

These are the incontrovertible facts:

Liddell & Scott's Greek-English Lexicon is NOT a lexicon of the New Testament—or even of Koine Greek! It is a lexicon of classical Greek literature—a very different dialect that is never used in the New Testament. Moreover, the meaning “departure; disappearance” is NEVER used in the New Testament! The only meanings found in the New Testament are, “defiance of established system or authority,” that is “rebellion, abandonment, breach of faith” (BDAG, p. 121). Furthermore, Liddell & Scott's Greek-English Lexicon was originally published in 1843 and the most recent edition was published in 1940. It has since then been virtually replaced by The Cambridge Greek Lexicon published on April 22, 2021 by Cambridge University Press.

No amount of lies and deliberate distortions of the truth will ever change these facts, and to post contrary to these facts is tantamount to flushing Jesus down the toilet! My Christian faith rests solidly upon the Bible in the languages in which God chose to give it to us. Inaccuracies in translations of the Bible are unfortunate, but they are irrelevant to what the Bible itself says.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

These are the incontrovertible facts:

Liddell & Scott's Greek-English Lexicon is NOT a lexicon of the New Testament—or even of Koine Greek! It is a lexicon of classical Greek literature—a very different dialect that is never used in the New Testament. Moreover, the meaning “departure; disappearance” is NEVER used in the New Testament! The only meanings found in the New Testament are, “defiance of established system or authority,” that is “rebellion, abandonment, breach of faith” (BDAG, p. 121). Furthermore, Liddell & Scott's Greek-English Lexicon was originally published in 1843 and the most recent edition was published in 1940. It has since then been virtually replaced by The Cambridge Greek Lexicon published on April 22, 2021 by Cambridge University Press.

No amount of lies and deliberate distortions of the truth will ever change these facts, and to post contrary to these facts is tantamount to flushing Jesus down the toilet! My Christian faith rests solidly upon the Bible in the languages in which God chose to give it to us. Inaccuracies in translations of the Bible are unfortunate, but they are irrelevant to what the Bible itself says.

Paul wrote “apostasia” (in Greek) in the original 2 Th 2:3. It is legitimately in the New Testament, and its second definition (departure / disappearance) fits perfectly in the context in which he used “apostasia.”

The proper definition can only be assigned by ascertaining the all-important context in which apostasia was used.

2 Th 2:1 can only be about the rapture. There is no “gathering unto Him” in Matt 24:31. Therefore, the context from verse 1 is indisputably “rapture.” Here’s 2 Th 2:1 (NLT): Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him.

“To meet him” is about Paul’s earlier words in 1 Th 4:17 (NLT): … to meet the Lord in the air.

All hell broke out in Thessalonica over Paul’s teachings (Acts 17:1-9). 2 Th 2:2 is about a fraudulent letter meant to deceive Paul’s local flock, in that they were already in the Trib.

2 Th 2:2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

In verse 3, Paul confirms that the rapture will occur before the Trib. 2 Th 2:3 (GNV): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

2 Th 2:1-3 are an emergency correction regarding Paul’s local flock falsely believing that the pre-Trib rapture had been missed. Paul stresses that in verse 3 that “that day” (“Day of the Lord” cited in verse 2): … shall not come, except there come a departing first,

Paul taught that the rapture will occur before the Trib.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Nonsense:
Paul is talking about the glorious Return.

That letter; a rumour, says nothing about anyone being raptured.

Your fixation on a rapture, leads you into serious error and confusion.
There just is no proof text of a rapture to heaven. It is a lie from the father of lies.

It’s all in the verses, Keras:

Paul wrote “apostasia” (in Greek) in the original 2 Th 2:3. It is legitimately in the New Testament, and its second definition (departure / disappearance) fits perfectly in the context in which he used “apostasia.”

The proper definition can only be assigned by ascertaining the all-important context in which apostasia was used.

2 Th 2:1 can only be about the rapture. There is no “gathering unto Him” in Matt 24:31. Therefore, the context from verse 1 is indisputably “rapture.” Here’s 2 Th 2:1 (NLT): Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him.

“To meet him” is about Paul’s earlier words in 1 Th 4:17 (NLT): … to meet the Lord in the air.

All hell broke out in Thessalonica over Paul’s teachings (Acts 17:1-9). 2 Th 2:2 is about a fraudulent letter meant to deceive Paul’s local flock, in that they were already in the Trib.

2 Th 2:2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

In verse 3, Paul confirms that the rapture will occur before the Trib. 2 Th 2:3 (GNV): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

2 Th 2:1-3 are an emergency correction regarding Paul’s local flock falsely believing that the pre-Trib rapture had been missed. Paul stresses that in verse 3 that “that day” (“Day of the Lord” cited in verse 2): … shall not come, except there come a departing first,

Paul taught that the rapture will occur before the Trib.

 

[Oseas]

Revelation 19 & 11 & 12
19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven(Ephesians 1:3-8 & 2:4-10), saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our GOD:
2 For true and righteous are His Judgments: for He hath Judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and has avenged the blood of His servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped GOD-Revelation 11:16- that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our GOD, all ye His servants, and ye that fear Him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying,
Alleluia: for the Lord GOD Omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
19 And I saw the Beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make WAR against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
But the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his messengers were cast out with him

Now is come salvation, and strength,and the kingdom of our GOD-Revelation 11:15-, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our GOD day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the Word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.Therefore rejoice,ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.Revelation 12:9-12 - (heavens?Ephesians 1:3-8 & 2:4-10).

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might FLY into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished (by the Word of GOD) for a time, and times, and half a time(42 months/1260days),from the face of the serpent-Revelation 12:14.--> Isaiah prophesied: Who are these that FLY as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows? Is.60:8

Revelation 19:9-> And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of GOD.

 

[Douggg]

This is a fairly nasty accusation. It just may rebound onto yourself.

I do know perfectly well the way we Christians will go:
Isaiah 35:8=10 A highway will appear, called the way of holiness.....the Lords people will enter Zion with shouts of triumph.....;
Isaiah 30:21 This is the way, follow it.
Psalms 107:1-3 Give thanks to the Lord, all you peoples who He has chosen...... they gather out of the lands from the East, West, North and the South.

Thinking the Church will go to heaven at anytime, is a wrong theory and contradicts many Prophesies.

Do you think that is the way that Thomas finally understood what Jesus meant ?

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Paul wrote “apostasia” (in Greek) in the original 2 Th 2:3. It is legitimately in the New Testament, and its second definition (departure / disappearance) fits perfectly in the context in which he used “apostasia.”

The proper definition can only be assigned by ascertaining the all-important context in which apostasia was used.

2 Th 2:1 can only be about the rapture. There is no “gathering unto Him” in Matt 24:31. Therefore, the context from verse 1 is indisputably “rapture.” Here’s 2 Th 2:1 (NLT): Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him.

“To meet him” is about Paul’s earlier words in 1 Th 4:17 (NLT): … to meet the Lord in the air.

All hell broke out in Thessalonica over Paul’s teachings (Acts 17:1-9). 2 Th 2:2 is about a fraudulent letter meant to deceive Paul’s local flock, in that they were already in the Trib.

2 Th 2:2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

In verse 3, Paul confirms that the rapture will occur before the Trib. 2 Th 2:3 (GNV): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

2 Th 2:1-3 are an emergency correction regarding Paul’s local flock falsely believing that the pre-Trib rapture had been missed. Paul stresses that in verse 3 that “that day” (“Day of the Lord” cited in verse 2): … shall not come, except there come a departing first,

Paul taught that the rapture will occur before the Trib.

The actual meaning of each and every word in the Greek New Testament was learned by studying it in each and every case in which it is used in the New Testament and other early Christian literature. This was an immensely time consuming process that took many years to complete with very numerous scholars participating. The data gleaned from this research was entered into very sophisticated databases with highly advanced search capabilities giving us the BDAG lexicon in 2020.

However, in your posts you have chosen to not only ignore this invaluable tool for New Testament studies but to post information that that is proven by this tool to be absolutely false; and you have done so by appealing to an extremely out dated lexicon of classical Greek that has little relevance to the New Testament which was given to us in a very different dialect. Furthermore, as though that was not bad enough, you have grossly abused the contents of that lexicon by misrepresenting a meaning that it gives for the Greek word ἀποστασία, that meaning being “departure” and most ridiculously claiming that this word speaks of the rapture of the church when in classical Greek that departure refers to forsaking of one’s allegiance to their people and their beliefs.

 

[Oseas]

It’s all in the verses, Keras:

Paul wrote “apostasia” (in Greek) in the original 2 Th 2:3. It is legitimately in the New Testament, and its second definition (departure / disappearance) fits perfectly in the context in which he used “apostasia.”

The proper definition can only be assigned by ascertaining the all-important context in which apostasia was used.

2 Th 2:1 can only be about the rapture. There is no “gathering unto Him” in Matt 24:31. Therefore, the context from verse 1 is indisputably “rapture.” Here’s 2 Th 2:1 (NLT): Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him.

“To meet him” is about Paul’s earlier words in 1 Th 4:17 (NLT): … to meet the Lord in the air.

All hell broke out in Thessalonica over Paul’s teachings (Acts 17:1-9). 2 Th 2:2 is about a fraudulent letter meant to deceive Paul’s local flock, in that they were already in the Trib.

2 Th 2:2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

In verse 3, Paul confirms that the rapture will occur before the Trib. 2 Th 2:3 (GNV): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

2 Th 2:1-3 are an emergency correction regarding Paul’s local flock falsely believing that the pre-Trib rapture had been missed. Paul stresses that in verse 3 that “that day” (“Day of the Lord” cited in verse 2): … shall not come, except there come a departing first,

Paul taught that the rapture will occur before the Trib.

If you see well, Paul WAS NOT "teaching that the rapture will occur before the Trib", as you think and interpret, quite the opposite, for the belief of the brethren in the Church of Thessalonians was PRE-TRIB, that is, they did believe the coming of JESUS was before the manifestation of the MAN of sin, son of perdition. JESUS had spoken of the son of perdition in His prayer-John 17:12 combined with John 5:43-47 and Revelation 13-11- , and Paul prophesied saying to the Church of Thessalonians that this MAN Beast will manifest himself and will "oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God will sit in the temple of God-JERUSALEM-Revelation 13:2-, shewing himself that he is God.
As all can see, Paul refuted the belief of PRE TRIB of the brethren of Tessalonians and warned them, and we all too, saying that "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that Day(the Lord's Day, the current seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that MAN OF SIN be revealed, the son of perdition. In fact Paul was remembering the brethren, he had alread teached them that, when he was yet with them before, and told them these things. This satanic MAN of SIN still did not manifest himself, this will occur from now on, in days to come, and very soon, ALSO the last Pope will be elected soon, for the last week, week 70th Daniel 9:24-27-yeah, the last week is within the last decade of the world of Devil that is running. GET READY

 

[keras]

Do you think that is the way that Thomas finally understood what Jesus meant ?

Probably not.
Just like most people, incl you; Thomas will only know the truth of Gods plans as they are fulfilled. God willing, you will be alive to see it all.
With Thomas and all the dead; only at the GWT Judgment, will they finally understand it all.

 

[Oseas]

WTC 9/11 to prepare the stage for the 2nd Beast of Revelation

After Gog battle the false prophet Will claim that Allah give them victory. So their religion replace Judaism as planned. But the muslim armies and the Russian army will be destroyed and many of their cities, and it will take 7 months for Israel to bury the dead of Gog's army. No muslim will...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The actual meaning of each and every word in the Greek New Testament was learned by studying it in each and every case in which it is used in the New Testament and other early Christian literature. This was an immensely time consuming process that took many years to complete with very numerous scholars participating. The data gleaned from this research was entered into very sophisticated databases with highly advanced search capabilities giving us the BDAG lexicon in 2020.

However, in your posts you have chosen to not only ignore this invaluable tool for New Testament studies but to post information that that is proven by this tool to be absolutely false; and you have done so by appealing to an extremely out dated lexicon of classical Greek that has little relevance to the New Testament which was given to us in a very different dialect. Furthermore, as though that was not bad enough, you have grossly abused the contents of that lexicon by misrepresenting a meaning that it gives for the Greek word ἀποστασία, that meaning being “departure” and most ridiculously claiming that this word speaks of the rapture of the church when in classical Greek that departure refers to forsaking of one’s allegiance to their people and their beliefs.

I do appreciate your knowledge of Greek. I also greatly appreciate your feedback.

In all due respect, I appeal to simplicity.

μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον· ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας,

The keyword is ἀποστασία. It translates to apostasia. Its 2nd definition is “departure / disappearance.”

2 Thess 2:1-5 are about the rapture and rapture teachings. That context applies to verse 3’s apostasia (disappearance)

The actual meaning of each and every word in the Greek New Testament was learned by studying it in each and every case in which it is used in the New Testament and other early Christian literature. This was an immensely time consuming process that took many years to complete with very numerous scholars participating. The data gleaned from this research was entered into very sophisticated databases with highly advanced search capabilities giving us the BDAG lexicon in 2020.

However, in your posts you have chosen to not only ignore this invaluable tool for New Testament studies but to post information that that is proven by this tool to be absolutely false; and you have done so by appealing to an extremely out dated lexicon of classical Greek that has little relevance to the New Testament which was given to us in a very different dialect. Furthermore, as though that was not bad enough, you have grossly abused the contents of that lexicon by misrepresenting a meaning that it gives for the Greek word ἀποστασία, that meaning being “departure” and most ridiculously claiming that this word speaks of the rapture of the church when in classical Greek that departure refers to forsaking of one’s allegiance to their people and their beliefs.

μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον· ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας,

I’m aware that the keyword is ἀποστασία. It translates to apostasia. Its 2nd definition is “departure / disappearance.”

2 Thess 2:1-5 are about the rapture and rapture teachings. That context applies to verse 3’s apostasia (disappearance)

The rapture includes a physical departure. It starts with 1 Th 4:16. Jesus descends with a loud shout, the sound of a trumpet. Jesus has a trumpet voice (Rev 4:1). What’s He known to loudly shout in a rapture? Rev 11:12 (NIV): Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

The last trump is heard (1 Th 4:16). That sets in motion 1 Cor 15:52 (NIV): in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

What happens next is 1 Th 4:17 (NIV): After that, we who are still alive and are leftwill be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Per John 14:3, we are taken to Heaven.

John 14:3 (KJV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Where is Jesus now? John 14:3 says “… that where I am, there ye may be also.”

 

[keras]

People believe in a ‘rapture to heaven’, pre, mid, post, anytime; which shows up the lack of Biblical support and the inability of rapture believers to agree on any aspect of that theory.

Where does this idea come from? It isn’t stated anywhere in the Bible and those who promote it must use inferences and assumptions to make verses fit their belief.

But when Jesus Himself tells us that such an idea is impossible, then we know it is just a fable, a false theory, like Paul says; will be prevalent in the latter days. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Jesus said:
John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…

John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.

John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….

John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.

Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.

Evidence enough that people never go to heaven. Only their unconscious souls, after death, go back to the One who made them, where they await the Great White Throne Judgement at the end of the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

The whole theory of a rapture to heaven contradicts what we are told that the Lord will do for His people; protection during the terrible times ahead. And for those who do stand firm in their faith, who call upon His Name when disaster strikes, there is the promise of tremendous blessings, spiritual and physical to every faithful Christian.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

I do appreciate your knowledge of Greek. I also greatly appreciate your feedback.

In all due respect, I appeal to simplicity.

μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον· ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας,

The keyword is ἀποστασία. It translates to apostasia. It’s 2nd definition is “departure / disappearance.”

2 Thess 2:1-5 are about the rapture and rapture teachings. That context applies to verse 3’s apostasia (disappearance)

Here are 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, one sentence in the Greek New Testament.

3 μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον · ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας,
4 ὁ ἀντικείμενος καὶ ὑπεραιρόμενος ἐπὶ πάντα λεγόμενον θεὸν ἢ σέβασμα, ὥστε αὐτὸν εἰς τὸν ναὸν τοῦ θεοῦ καθίσαι ἀποδεικνύντα ἑαυτὸν ὅτι ἔστιν θεός.

The word ἀποστασία, transliterated in some literature as “apostasia,” simply does not mean “departure” or “disappearance.” According to the (BDAG (p. 121), the only meanings found in the New Testament are, “defiance of established system or authority,” that is “rebellion, abandonment, breach of faith” (BDAG, p. 121). However, your posts clearly tell us that you do not like those meanings. And because you do not like them, you have falsely claimed repeatedly that the word ἀποστασία” means “departure / disappearance” and that it is a reference to the rapture of the Church. There is nothing more important to me than the truth, but your posts show us that your values are quite very different!

 

[Douggg]

Here are 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, one sentence in the Greek New Testament.

3 μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον · ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας,
4 ὁ ἀντικείμενος καὶ ὑπεραιρόμενος ἐπὶ πάντα λεγόμενον θεὸν ἢ σέβασμα, ὥστε αὐτὸν εἰς τὸν ναὸν τοῦ θεοῦ καθίσαι ἀποδεικνύντα ἑαυτὸν ὅτι ἔστιν θεός.

The word ἀποστασία, transliterated in some literature as “apostasia,” simply does not mean “departure” or “disappearance.” According to the (BDAG (p. 121), the only meanings found in the New Testament are, “defiance of established system or authority,” that is “rebellion, abandonment, breach of faith” (BDAG, p. 121). However, your posts clearly tell us that you do not like those meanings. And because you do not like them, you have falsely claimed repeatedly that the word ἀποστασία” means “departure / disappearance” and that it is a reference to the rapture of the Church. There is nothing more important to me than the truth, but your posts show us that your values are quite very different!

In the first of Paul's letters to the Thessalonians, in 1Thessalonians5:1-11 Paul said that Christians were not appointed to wrath, but salvation when the day of the Lord begins.

In the second of Paul's letters to the Thessalonians, in 2Thesslaonians2 Paul told them not to worry about rumors that the day of the Lord had already begun and gave the two great signs that would precede it of...

1. a great falling away from belief in Jesus.
2. the man of sin revealing himself as such by going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.


Therefore, my rapture timing view, which I call the anytime rapture view is that it will happen anytime between right this very second and the day the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Here are 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, one sentence in the Greek New Testament.

3 μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον · ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας,
4 ὁ ἀντικείμενος καὶ ὑπεραιρόμενος ἐπὶ πάντα λεγόμενον θεὸν ἢ σέβασμα, ὥστε αὐτὸν εἰς τὸν ναὸν τοῦ θεοῦ καθίσαι ἀποδεικνύντα ἑαυτὸν ὅτι ἔστιν θεός.

The word ἀποστασία, transliterated in some literature as “apostasia,” simply does not mean “departure” or “disappearance.” According to the (BDAG (p. 121), the only meanings found in the New Testament are, “defiance of established system or authority,” that is “rebellion, abandonment, breach of faith” (BDAG, p. 121). However, your posts clearly tell us that you do not like those meanings. And because you do not like them, you have falsely claimed repeatedly that the word ἀποστασία” means “departure / disappearance” and that it is a reference to the rapture of the Church. There is nothing more important to me than the truth, but your posts show us that your values are quite very different!

BDAG (p. 121) reminds me of Strong’s treatment of “apostasia.” The latter only lists one definition: revolt / falling away; much like BDAG.

Apostasia has five definitions, including “divorce.” There are errors of omission in both Strong’s and BDAG.

Liddell & Scott Greek-English Lexicon got it right by at least including apostasia’s second definition. I therefore trust it, in terms of its rendering of “apostasia.”

You ignore the all-important context of rapture in 2 Th 2:1. That is what’s most important. That verse aligns with 1 Th 4:17. It is richly provable that Paul used apostasia with its second definition. Yet, that fact is completely ignored. If you get the context wrong, you get apostasia wrong.

Paul never spoke of a falling away before 2 Th 2, and he didn’t speak of one in verse 3. He had a very rich history of rapture instruction: 1 Th 1:10, 1 Th 5:9 and 1 Th 4:16-17.

“Falling away” never appeared in 2 Th 2:3 until the KJV in 1611. The KJV thereby caused a sea change in verse 3, flipping it from definition #2 (departure / disappearance) to definition #1 (revolt / defection). What is most telling about this sea change is KJV would never say why then, and they continue to avoid that all-important answer, now (I know that because I have personally asked them). Now, how credible is such a monumental change in Scripture, when there’s no accountability?

Jesus spoke of a falling away in Matt 24:10 (ESV): And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.

The timeline of the seven-year Trib puts Matt 24:10 well into the Trib, approaching the midpoint.

However, the context of 2 Th 2:3 ends at Rev 6:1-2 (the start to the Trib) by the closing words to 2 Th 2:3. Those closing words are solely about the first revelation of the AC in Rev 6:1-2. The AC bursts onto the scene riding a white horse, giving every appearance of being Jesus on His white horse in Rev 19:11.

Rev 6:1-2 start the Trib as seal #1. The context of 2 Th 2:3 expires at the start of the Trib. There is no way to assign Matt 24:10 to 2 Th 2:3 both contextually and by the timeline. The colossal change in 2 Th 2:3 by KJV has no supporting reference. KJV won’t defend their sea change in 2 Th 2:3, because they can’t.

 

[keras]

The colossal change in 2 Th 2:3 by KJV has no supporting reference. KJV won’t defend their sea change in 2 Th 2:3, because they can’t.

falling away is correct, so they rightly; won't change it.
You see a 'rapture to heaven' in many scriptures, but not one of your so called proofs, actually, clearly, says what you think it does.

Not appointed to wrath and deliver you from the wrath to come, do not say the Lord will rapture us to heaven. You wrongly assume that.
I have a list of 28 Bible verses that Promise protection through all the hard times ahead, before Jesus Returns. We are told to stand firm in our faith and to trust in the Lord to keep us safe, when disaster strikes.
Psalms 31:23-24 The Lord protects the faithful. Be strong all you whose hope is in the Lord.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Here are 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, one sentence in the Greek New Testament.

3 μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον · ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας,
4 ὁ ἀντικείμενος καὶ ὑπεραιρόμενος ἐπὶ πάντα λεγόμενον θεὸν ἢ σέβασμα, ὥστε αὐτὸν εἰς τὸν ναὸν τοῦ θεοῦ καθίσαι ἀποδεικνύντα ἑαυτὸν ὅτι ἔστιν θεός.

The word ἀποστασία, transliterated in some literature as “apostasia,” simply does not mean “departure” or “disappearance.” According to the (BDAG (p. 121), the only meanings found in the New Testament are, “defiance of established system or authority,” that is “rebellion, abandonment, breach of faith” (BDAG, p. 121). However, your posts clearly tell us that you do not like those meanings. And because you do not like them, you have falsely claimed repeatedly that the word ἀποστασία” means “departure / disappearance” and that it is a reference to the rapture of the Church. There is nothing more important to me than the truth, but your posts show us that your values are quite very different!

2 Th 2:1 is about raising the topic of the rapture. It was an emergency for Paul to address the topic of the rapture after learning of the fraudulent letter cited in verse 2. That fraudulent letter deceived his fliock into thinking they had missed the rapture and were in the Trib. That is not my opinion. It’s all in verses 1-3.

falling away is correct, so they rightly; won't change it.
You see a 'rapture to heaven' in many scriptures, but not one of your so called proofs, actually, clearly, says what you think it does.

Not appointed to wrath and deliver you from the wrath to come, do not say the Lord will rapture us to heaven. You wrongly assume that.
I have a list of 28 Bible verses that Promise protection through all the hard times ahead, before Jesus Returns. We are told to stand firm in our faith and to trust in the Lord to keep us safe, when disaster strikes.
Psalms 31:23-24 The Lord protects the faithful. Be strong all you whose hope is in the Lord.

Paul never wrote about a “falling away” prior to Acts 20:28–31. He wrote verses about the rapture: 1 Th 1:10, 1 Th 5:9 and 1 Th 4:16-17.

2 Th 2:1 (ESV): Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,

Those’two actions: the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND our being gathered to him are CONSECUTIVE actions with nothing else happening in between them. Show me where those consecutive actions occur elsewhere in the Trib or 2A with nothing else happening in between them.

For the record, Matt 24:31 fails that test. It doesn’t say “gathered unto Him.” Matt 24:31 (ESV): And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

falling away is correct, so they rightly; won't change it.
You see a 'rapture to heaven' in many scriptures, but not one of your so called proofs, actually, clearly, says what you think it does.

Not appointed to wrath and deliver you from the wrath to come, do not say the Lord will rapture us to heaven. You wrongly assume that.
I have a list of 28 Bible verses that Promise protection through all the hard times ahead, before Jesus Returns. We are told to stand firm in our faith and to trust in the Lord to keep us safe, when disaster strikes.
Psalms 31:23-24 The Lord protects the faithful. Be strong all you whose hope is in the Lord.

Show me one verse that pertains to the Trib, for protection of the Church (all in Christ).

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

falling away is correct, so they rightly; won't change it.
You see a 'rapture to heaven' in many scriptures, but not one of your so called proofs, actually, clearly, says what you think it does.

Not appointed to wrath and deliver you from the wrath to come, do not say the Lord will rapture us to heaven. You wrongly assume that.
I have a list of 28 Bible verses that Promise protection through all the hard times ahead, before Jesus Returns. We are told to stand firm in our faith and to trust in the Lord to keep us safe, when disaster strikes.
Psalms 31:23-24 The Lord protects the faithful. Be strong all you whose hope is in the Lord.

Disprove that 1 Th 1:10 is about a rapture before the Trib:

1 Th 1:10 (NIV): and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

“Delivers us" in 1 Th 1:10 means we are snatched away (raptured): "The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [l;v"n] ("draw out, snatched away")," --- Source: Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology.

We next have to answer: What is God’s wrath? Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

Therefore, God’s wrath can be wars, famine, wild animals (who brutally kill humans), and disease.

This is the 2nd seal: Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

God’s wrath in the Trib starts in the 2nd seal. 1 Th 1:10 proves the timing of the rapture is pre-Trib. That’s the Bible saying it; not me.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Here are 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, one sentence in the Greek New Testament.

3 μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον · ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας,
4 ὁ ἀντικείμενος καὶ ὑπεραιρόμενος ἐπὶ πάντα λεγόμενον θεὸν ἢ σέβασμα, ὥστε αὐτὸν εἰς τὸν ναὸν τοῦ θεοῦ καθίσαι ἀποδεικνύντα ἑαυτὸν ὅτι ἔστιν θεός.

The word ἀποστασία, transliterated in some literature as “apostasia,” simply does not mean “departure” or “disappearance.” According to the (BDAG (p. 121), the only meanings found in the New Testament are, “defiance of established system or authority,” that is “rebellion, abandonment, breach of faith” (BDAG, p. 121). However, your posts clearly tell us that you do not like those meanings. And because you do not like them, you have falsely claimed repeatedly that the word ἀποστασία” means “departure / disappearance” and that it is a reference to the rapture of the Church. There is nothing more important to me than the truth, but your posts show us that your values are quite very different!

Disprove that 1 Th 1:10 is about a rapture before the Trib:

1 Th 1:10 (NIV): and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

“Delivers us" in 1 Th 1:10 means we are snatched away (raptured): "The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [l;v"n] ("draw out, snatched away")," --- Source: Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology.

We next have to answer: What is God’s wrath? Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

Therefore, God’s wrath can be wars, famine, wild animals (who brutally kill humans), and disease.

This is the 2nd seal: Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

God’s wrath in the Trib starts in the 2nd seal. 1 Th 1:10 proves the timing of the rapture is pre-Trib. That’s the Bible saying it; not me.