Discussion School of the prophets??

[Alithis]

School of prophets and the like.

They mostly teach frail theories based upon christian mysticism.
Not sound doctrine.
The problem is .. Since when is a prophetic word "learned".

The lord warns of people who prophesy from thier own imaginations.
I think honestly MOST social media promoted prophetic ministries ( since there is no biblical prophetic ministry)
Are only groups wrapped up in thier own imaginations .

Now its been around a few years we have been enabeld to observe past claims of prophecy replaced by new claimed prophecy replaced again with yet newer claims with none of them having come to pass.

Spells false prophet!

 

[Alithis]

I would strongly advise departing from all fellowship with groups promoting schooled prophecy abilities.

We see in scripture that prophecy comes from God. Not man.
When the highpriest prophesied..he was not aware.. No schooling there.
When saul prophecied.. He was fully unschooled in it.
Prophecy is an active living attribute of the holy Spirit .

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I would strongly advise departing from all fellowship with groups promoting schooled prophecy abilities.

We see in scripture that prophecy comes from God. Not man.
When the highpriest prophesied..he was not aware.. No schooling there.
When saul prophecied.. He was fully unschooled in it.
Prophecy is an active living attribute of the holy Spirit .

Now that you have commented in general, would you like to name the specific 'schools" that you are referring to? You must have some in mind.

Jesus asked a very interesting question about the casting out of demons to the Pharisees who accused Him of casting demons out through the devil. He said, "If I cast out demons through the prince of demons, through whom do you cast out demons?"

The point I am making is this: If prophetic "schools" are giving false prophecies (presumably through a wrong spirit), then how do you know what spirit the prophecies that arise out of your group comes from?

I'm not judging anyone...just askin'

 

[Greg J.]

The Lord can gather people together that he has granted spiritual gifts to if he wants. It might even be a group of people more strongly grounded in the Word than the wide variety of people that gather together at a local church.

There are practical things to learn by those who who are new to gifts. Isn't that the case for the gift of preaching or missionary work? Anyone want to argue we should get rid of seminaries? In Scripture preaching and teaching are just as much spiritual gifts as gifts of healing and prophecy. Also, because they will be interacting with people with their gifts, there is plenty of room for learned wisdom for organizational, relational, and leadership issues—and to make sure they have the Truth straight, since being weak in that will leave the devil a foothold. The more successful a person is with whatever their gift is, the more severe their spiritual oppression.

A gathering of people experienced in the gifts with inexperienced people new to them is prudent. It isn't to acquire a gift. The Holy Spirit distributes spiritual gifts according to his will. Trust what the Holy Spirit gave us in Scripture instead of human reasoning about what is in Scripture. God doesn't generally reveal information about a gift (or anything else) except to the person who needs to know it. We are supposed to be operating as a community of followers of Christ, each a different part of the body with different gifts.

People with more faith in God than you will always seem questionable, crazy, or suspect. The way an unbeliever perceives a believer is no different than when there is a significant difference in the faith in God of two Christians. Spiritual blindness afflicts us all to some degree. This is one of many good reason why God commanded people less spiritually mature to submit to those who are more spiritually mature in their local body who are able to lead and teach (Hebrews 13:17). That is a part of what helps the elders resist sin and do a good job (esp. along with prayer). Multitudes of pastors have learned the hard way not to be too hasty in raising up an elder (1 Timothy 5:22). Leadership and relationship skills are nothing at all compared to what qualifies a person to be an elder. (A church having qualified pastors is a huge subject on its own.) There are just some things that cannot be understood without years and decades of pressing in to the Lord and being used by him to do things that are impossible for a person to do. It is not possible for a spiritually immature person to evaluate the suitability of an elder. It is made difficult by the sinning of those supposedly more spiritually mature, and God will deal with them, but everyone is accountable to God for obeying the authorities He has put in place. (As in all things, there are extreme scenarios where there are exceptions.) God deals swiftly with corrupt leadership when those being led are living by faith in God.

Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? (1 Corinthians 3:1-3, 1984 NIV)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Of course, anyone who moves in the gifts of the Spirit has had to learn it from somewhere. What's the difference between being self-taught through studying the Scripture and listening to the pastor preaching on the gifts, and attending a prophetic workshop to receive teaching and then going into a group workshop to put the teaching into practice?

There are two ways of learning a musical instrument: Self teaching, or having a qualified music teacher teach you. Some purists think that being self-taught is being taught by a fool.

So, what is the difference between being self-taught and then launching out in faith in a church meeting, and being taught in a prophetic workshop by those experienced in the prophetic and who know all the pitfalls, and are allowing believers to use their faith in a non-criticising environment. And, where each prophecy is recorded, they can be played back and properly examined and evaluated, whereas in a church meeting, most prophecies are not recorded, and so by the next hymn they are forgotten, and therefore not properly evaluated.

I fully agree that teaching alone does not produce Holy Spirit prophetic manifestation, but what is so wrong with the Holy Spirit working with experienced prophetic teachers, assisting believers to stir up their gifts? I call that the ministry of helps, which is just as important as the other ministries listed in 1 Corinthians 12.

 

[Alithis]

Now that you have commented in general, would you like to name the specific 'schools" that you are referring to? You must have some in mind.

Jesus asked a very interesting question about the casting out of demons to the Pharisees who accused Him of casting demons out through the devil. He said, "If I cast out demons through the prince of demons, through whom do you cast out demons?"

The point I am making is this: If prophetic "schools" are giving false prophecies (presumably through a wrong spirit), then how do you know what spirit the prophecies that arise out of your group comes from?

I'm not judging anyone...just askin'

Its generic.. My point is twofold..
first
Prophecy is not learned like a ..carnal trade
2nd
We now have records going back 10 + years which allow us to see how the many so called prophecies went unfulfilled.
And .are being recycled.

 

[Greg J.]

I've never heard a particularly specific prophesy intended for public consumption from a a reliable source. The kinds of prophecies I've heard from reliable people are rather general.

But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. (1 Corinthians 14:3, 1984 NIV)

Any part of a public prophecy that does not meet this requirement wasn't from God. While the one prophesying should know how to evaluate prophesy, it can be a stretch to evaluate one's own prophesy at the same time as giving it without clouded thinking. Some churches handle this by requiring that the prophesy be written down, then it is evaluated by the pastor or elder. Only then might the pastor read it to the church. However they are examined, because some parts of a prophesy can be from God while other parts are not.

do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil. (1 Thessalonians 5:20-22, 1984 NIV)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Its generic.. My point is twofold..
first
Prophecy is not learned like a ..carnal trade
2nd
We now have records going back 10 + years which allow us to see how the many so called prophecies went unfulfilled.
And .are being recycled.

Most, if not all false prophecies have originated from self appointed prophets who decided they have the gift of prophecy and got up and gave prophecies thinking they were from God. But there is no actual proof that they were, and many lives were ruined because of them.

But when a group of believers wanting to learn to prophesy and know that what they are saying is of God, then they take the wise step of engaging in a workshop monitored and supervised by those experienced in the prophetic. The believers are teachable people and are prepared to be corrected if they give wrong prophecies.

But people who just jump up in services and give prophecies are usually unteachable in the event when someone experienced in the prophetic gets them aside and questions the truth of what they prophesied. These unteachable ones say, "What I said was of the Spirit and how dare you correct me!" It is even worse when the pastor of the church prophesies questionable stuff. They are more likely to say, "You can't talk to me like that! I'm the pastor here, and if you don't like it, then leave!"

I won't accept any prophecy given either directly to me or in the church service unless it is recorded and I can listen to it in a more relaxed environment later on when I can hear it properly and evaluate it to see whether it is in harmony with Scripture.

I have attended a good number of prophetic equipping days in which teaching has been given by experienced and capable people in the prophetic, and the advantage is that people can give prophetic words in a non-criticising environment. I have witnessed many prophetic words in these equipping conferences and I have not heard a false one yet.

But I have heard long, loud prophecies in KJV language which appeared to me to be more thoughts from the "prophets" own mind, and coming usually from ones who are not given other opportunities to put their views to the church, and so they misuse the gift of prophecy to try and get people to listen to them.

In a prophetic equipping session, those types are usually weeded out and correction is applied to them. If they haven't been prepared to accept correction, they have usually left the session and not come back.

 

[Alithis]

I've never heard a particularly specific prophesy intended for public consumption from a a reliable source. The kinds of prophecies I've heard from reliable people are rather general.

But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. (1 Corinthians 14:3, 1984 NIV)

Any part of a public prophecy that does not meet this requirement wasn't from God. While the one prophesying should know how to evaluate prophesy, it can be a stretch to evaluate one's own prophesy at the same time as giving it without clouded thinking. Some churches handle this by requiring that the prophesy be written down, then it is evaluated by the pastor or elder. Only then might the pastor read it to the church. However they are examined, because some parts of a prophesy can be from God while other parts are not.

do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil. (1 Thessalonians 5:20-22, 1984 NIV)

Test everything..yes.
Bit difficult for pastors to do so when such a high number of them are the false prophets.

 

[Alithis]

Most, if not all false prophecies have originated from self appointed prophets who decided they have the gift of prophecy and got up and gave prophecies thinking they were from God. But there is no actual proof that they were, and many lives were ruined because of them.

But when a group of believers wanting to learn to prophesy and know that what they are saying is of God, then they take the wise step of engaging in a workshop monitored and supervised by those experienced in the prophetic. The believers are teachable people and are prepared to be corrected if they give wrong prophecies.

But people who just jump up in services and give prophecies are usually unteachable in the event when someone experienced in the prophetic gets them aside and questions the truth of what they prophesied. These unteachable ones say, "What I said was of the Spirit and how dare you correct me!" It is even worse when the pastor of the church prophesies questionable stuff. They are more likely to say, "You can't talk to me like that! I'm the pastor here, and if you don't like it, then leave!"

I won't accept any prophecy given either directly to me or in the church service unless it is recorded and I can listen to it in a more relaxed environment later on when I can hear it properly and evaluate it to see whether it is in harmony with Scripture.

I have attended a good number of prophetic equipping days in which teaching has been given by experienced and capable people in the prophetic, and the advantage is that people can give prophetic words in a non-criticising environment. I have witnessed many prophetic words in these equipping conferences and I have not heard a false one yet.

But I have heard long, loud prophecies in KJV language which appeared to me to be more thoughts from the "prophets" own mind, and coming usually from ones who are not given other opportunities to put their views to the church, and so they misuse the gift of prophecy to try and get people to listen to them.

In a prophetic equipping session, those types are usually weeded out and correction is applied to them. If they haven't been prepared to accept correction, they have usually left the session and not come back.

Equally that entire seeting is often used to quench the spirit because few want to hear
What the lord haa to say.
Its not comfortable.
They no longer accept that whom the lord loves he chastens ..so all rebuking prophecies have been disallowed since the mid 80s.

 

[Alithis]

But the point is
Prophecy is not learned.
It is of the holy spirit.

Obedience is learned..and lacking.
Discipline is learned
Humility is learned
But the gifts of the spirit are OF the holy spirit.
Sometimes the lord has prophecied
Through children .
For very good reaaon

 

[Greg J.]

People don't go to "schools of the prophets" to acquire the gift of prophecy. Note that when prophets were put to death if caught making a single wrong prophecy, there were schools for prophets (referred to in the NIV as "company of prophets").

 

[Alithis]

People don't go to "schools of the prophets" to acquire the gift of prophecy. Note that when prophets were put to death if caught making a single wrong prophecy, there were schools for prophets (referred to in the NIV as "company of prophets").

Some know a few verses from Jeremiah 23...

But in light of the whole text of Jeremiah23 vs 9 to 40
I think when carefully read through (i would hope) many who hurry to slap on the hat of prophet would swiftly repent and NOT seek to glory in such a title.

Without humility no person who claims to be a prophet is a profit.

 

[Greg J.]

Without humility no person who claims to be a prophet is a profit.

This idea is consistent with spiritually mature people, but prophesy doesn't have to be given by spiritually mature people. It is God that is speaking. He can speak through a donkey if he wants to.

 

[Richard T]

Romans 12:5-8 (KJV)
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

I have no problem with anyone seeking more formal training for their position in the body of Christ. No one would blame a Pastor or teacher that went to bible college or seminary. Training for prophets just means that mature prophets help those who have less experience. Elijah had the first such school as he mentored Elisha.

With that said, since there are also false prophets, with potential schools led by these, and leaders that are motivated by earning your money. Thus, there does need to be accountability in the church.

 

[Alithis]

This idea is consistent with spiritually mature people, but prophesy doesn't have to be given by spiritually mature people. It is God that is speaking. He can speak through a donkey if he wants to.

Donkeys are surprisingly humble .seeking no glory nor renown for themselves

 

[Alithis]

Concerning the prophets:

My heart is broken within me;
all my bones tremble.
I am like a drunken man,
like a strong man overcome by wine,
because of the Lord
and his holy words.
The land is full of adulterers;
because of the curse the land lies parched
and the pastures in the wilderness are withered.
The prophets follow an evil course
and use their power unjustly.

“Both prophet and priest are godless;
even in my temple I find their wickedness,”
declares the Lord.
“Therefore their path will become slippery;
they will be banished to darkness
and there they will fall.
I will bring disaster on them
in the year they are punished,”
declares the Lord.
“Among the prophets of Samaria
I saw this repulsive thing:
They prophesied by Baal (false lord )
and led my people Israel astray.
And among the prophets of Jerusalem
I have seen something horrible:
They commit adultery and live a lie.
They strengthen the hands of evildoers,
so that not one of them turns from their wickedness.
They are all like Sodom to me;
the people of Jerusalem are like Gomorrah.”

Therefore this is what the Lord Almighty says concerning the prophets:

“I will make them eat bitter food
and drink poisoned water,
because from the prophets of Jerusalem
ungodliness has spread throughout the land.”

This is what the Lord Almighty says:

“Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you;
they fill you with false hopes.
They speak visions from their own minds,
not from the mouth of the Lord.
They keep saying to those who despise me,
‘The Lord says: You will have peace.’
And to all who follow the stubbornness of their hearts
they say, ‘No harm will come to you.’
But which of them has stood in the council of the Lord
to see or to hear his word?
Who has listened and heard his word?
See, the storm of the Lord
will burst out in wrath,
a whirlwind swirling down
on the heads of the wicked.
The anger of the Lord will not turn back
until he fully accomplishes
the purposes of his heart.
In days to come
you will understand it clearly.
I did not send these prophets,
yet they have run with their message;
I did not speak to them,
yet they have prophesied.
But if they had stood in my council,
they would have proclaimed my words to my people
and would have turned them from their evil ways
and from their evil deeds.

“Am I only a God nearby,”
declares the Lord,
“and not a God far away?
Who can hide in secret places
so that I cannot see them?”
declares the Lord.
“Do not I fill heaven and earth?”
declares the Lord.

“I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. They say, ‘I had a dream! I had a dream!’ How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds? They think the dreams they tell one another will make my people forget my name, just as their ancestors forgot my name through Baal worship. Let the prophet who has a dream recount the dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. For what has straw to do with grain?” declares the Lord. “Is not my word like fire,” declares the Lord, “and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?

“Therefore,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me. Yes,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, ‘The Lord declares.’ Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,” declares the Lord. “They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least,” declares the Lord.

“When these people, or a prophet or a priest, ask you, ‘What is the message from the Lord?’ say to them, ‘What message? I will forsake you, declares the Lord.’ If a prophet or a priest or anyone else claims, ‘This is a message from the Lord,’ I will punish them and their household. This is what each of you keeps saying to your friends and other Israelite's: ‘What is the Lord’s answer?’ or ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ But you must not mention ‘a message from the Lord’ again, because each one’s word becomes their own message. So you distort the words of the living God, the Lord Almighty, our God. This is what you keep saying to a prophet: ‘What is the Lord’s answer to you?’ or ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ Although you claim, ‘This is a message from the Lord,’ this is what the Lord says: You used the words, ‘This is a message from the Lord,’ even though I told you that you must not claim, ‘This is a message from the Lord.’ Therefore, I will surely forget you and cast you out of my presence along with the city I gave to you and your ancestors. I will bring on you everlasting disgrace—everlasting shame that will not be forgotten.”

 

[Greg J.]

That was spoken against specific prophets (all but one, iirc), and doesn't define the office of prophet, but I can't double-check, because you didn't cite your source.

 

[Alithis]

That was spoken against specific prophets (all but one, iirc), and doesn't define the office of prophet, but I can't double-check, because you didn't cite your source.

you know the source if you have any familiarity with the scripture
it is the principles in the text which as all the OT are written for our admonishment and instruction .
these same warning stand today .

a close friend who has not had much to do with the church system and who was saved out of much new ageism ,was recently invited to a prophetic ministry evening by a typical Charismatic church . where a "prophetic speaker would be teaching " and after they would be "sharing prophetic words .

she was not sure about it .
that night the lord gave her a dream and gave her the above chapter .. (it is of course Jeremiah 23 9-40)
in her dream they held hands in a circle .

she didnt know what it meant but she prayed lord if thee are all false prophets then at their meeting let that happen that they stand like in the dream in a circle and hold hands .

she went to the meeting and it happened exactly as in the dream ..
she tried to leave the meeting and was strongly coerced to stay .. but in the end by persistence she got to leave .knowing everything about the meeting had been declared by the lord JESUS as FALSE .

yes these words are 100% relevant for today .
the churched have been filed with new ageism practices philosophies and FALSE PROPHETS .

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Some know a few verses from Jeremiah 23...

But in light of the whole text of Jeremiah23 vs 9 to 40
I think when carefully read through (i would hope) many who hurry to slap on the hat of prophet would swiftly repent and NOT seek to glory in such a title.

Without humility no person who claims to be a prophet is a profit.

That's the difference between a prophet and a loss!