Is the Divine Council Biblical?

[Cement]

A Divine Council is an assembly of deities over which a higher-level god presides.

From Wiki Reference Page..
"The Book of Psalms (Psalm 82:1), states "God (אֱלֹהִ֔ים elohim) stands in the divine assembly (בַּעֲדַת-אֵל ); He judges among the gods (אֱלֹהִ֔ים elohim)" (אֱלֹהִים נִצָּב בַּעֲדַת־אֵל בְּקֶרֶב אֱלֹהִים יִשְׁפֹּט). The meaning of the two occurrences of "elohim" has been debated by scholars, with some suggesting both words refer to Yahweh, while others propose that the God of Israel rules over a divine assembly of other gods or angels.[9] Some translations of the passage render "God (elohim) stands in the congregation of the mighty to judge the heart as God (elohim)"[10] (the Hebrew is "beqerev elohim", "in the midst of gods", and the word "qerev" if it were in the plural would mean "internal organs"[11]). Later in this Psalm, the word "gods" is used (in the KJV): Psalm 82:6 - "I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High." Instead of "gods", another version has "godlike beings",[12] but here again, the word is elohim/elohiym (Strong's H430).[13] This passage is quoted in the New Testament in John 10:34.[14]"

Michael Heiser has a great explanation on this subject. I cannot so far find in any scriptural reference which can dispute this theory.

1 Corinthians 3:2

 

[Inkfingers]

This is what happens when we seek to translate (horribly complex) Hebrew into English. The word 'God' is not a Hebrew concept. What they speak of is Elohim, which seems to mean mighty judge and ruler, with YHWH being the supreme mighty judge and rule whilst the sons of YHWH are also counted as mighty judges and rulers too (but which answer to the supreme mighty judge and ruler).

The sons of YHWH being either angels or humans.

You can see why they combined 'mighty judge and ruler' into one word - it's a bit of a mouthful.

Then what seems to be happening in that Psalm is that YHWH is speaking to the council of the Sons of YHWH, and saying they have been unjust in their rulership / delegated-stewardship of the flock.

 

[Cement]

This is what happens when we seek to translate (horribly complex) Hebrew into English. The word 'God' is not a Hebrew concept. What they speak of is Elohim, which seems to mean mighty judge and ruler, with YHWH being the supreme mighty judge and rule whilst the sons of YHWH are also counted as mighty judges and rulers too (but which answer to the supreme mighty judge and ruler).

The sons of YHWH being either angels or humans.

You can see why they combined 'mighty judge and ruler' into one word - it's a bit of a mouthful.

Then what seems to be happening in that Psalm is that YHWH is speaking to the council of the Sons of YHWH, and saying they have been unjust in their rulership / delegated-stewardship of the flock.

Please show me where it translates the word Elohim as judge/ruler? Specifically in the Bible.

 

[Inkfingers]

Please show me where it translates the word Elohim as judge/ruler? Specifically in the Bible.

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

 

[Cement]

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

Okay thanks. But to my other point God is ultimately the King of Kings here so he sits on his throne before the Divine Council to Judge those Rulers. The Bible states that we will one day Judge the Angels.

 

[DW1980]

I think you have to keep in mind the whole of what the Bible teaches. There is only one true God (John 17:3 for example). All others are (by definition) false gods. Ive come across this divine council thing before, and it seems to me to be based on torturing the Hebrew texts, no mainstream Hebrew scholar holds this view.

 

[Inkfingers]

I think you have to keep in mind the whole of what the Bible teaches. There is only one true God (John 17:3 for example). All others are (by definition) false gods. Ive come across this divine council thing before, and it seems to me to be based on torturing the Hebrew texts, no mainstream Hebrew scholar holds this view.

The KJV puts it as the "congregation of the mighty" rather than "divine council", translating edah, which means congregation/assembly, and el, which means mighty. This could well be referring to either angels or even saved humans on the earth itself (akin to the presence of the Holy Spirit in ecclesia).

 

[συνείδησις]

I'm listening to the Heiser video and was surprised and pleased to hear him say something I believe, i.e., that Christ was referring to Daniel 7:13 when answering Caiaphas in Matthew 26:64.

I'm also surprised he didn't include the Septuagint version of Deuteronomy 32:8 that has angels of GOD instead of children of Israel (though he did refer to bible translations that speak of a heavenly council).

 

[dysert]

Ive come across this divine council thing before, and it seems to me to be based on torturing the Hebrew texts, no mainstream Hebrew scholar holds this view.

So you don't think Heiser is a mainstream Hebrew scholar?

 

[Erik Nelson]

Jude 1:6 = 2 Peter 2:4 = Psalm 82

Chapter 5 of The Exodus by Richard Elliott Friedman shows the "death of the gods" (Psalm 82). God speaks in the plural at the creation of mankind (Genesis 1:26), the fall of mankind (Genesis 3:22), and the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:7).

After that, God never speaks in the plural again. Instead, God judges the other gods, such as the gods of Egypt (Exodus 12:12).

The other gods, who are the sons of God (bene Elohim) per Psalm 82, had been wicked since Genesis 6 and their spawning of the Nephilim. After the Tower of Babel, God dispersed the nations, setting their boundaries according to the bene Elohim (LXX, DSS). Thus, God gave the Greeks of Greece to Zeus, etc.

According to the NIV Study Bible notes, Daniel 10:20-21 shows that those national deities were "Princes", even as Michael was the Prince of Israel, who alone fought alongside God.

If so, then it seems clear that "Zeus, Prince of the Greeks of Greece" (as it were) is equivalent in "rank" to Michael, Archangel of Israel. Zeus was the Archangel of the Greeks (as it were). Ahura Mazda was the Princely Archangel of the Persians (as it were). Ra was one of the Princely Archangels of the Egyptians (so to speak).

According to Daniel 10:20-21 = Jude 1:6 = 2 Peter 2:4 = Psalm 82, they somehow "left their proper place" and came to fight against God and His loyal Archangels -- to wit, they became the "Fallen Angels".

"Zeus" (Greece) and "Ahura Mazda" (Persia) and "Ra" (Egypt) are depicted as "Archangel rank" celestial beings who basically rebelled against God and His remaining loyal Archangels. Perhaps that's why Pharaoh's magicians were able to perform some magic??? Yet, one by one, YHWH has "silenced the heavens" (as it were), chaining rogue spirits until Judgement.

Such that currently only YHWH alone and His Heavenly Host remains.

The Bible is not being polytheistic. The other "gods" = "sons of God" are basically Archangel rank entities, of status comparable to Archangels Michael & Gabriel. The Word of God came to them (John 10:34), evidently meaning the speech / commandments / orders of God reached them, instructing them to do God's bidding as His Archangelic servants. However, they left their proper stations (Jude 1:6), stopped judging & guiding their allotted human nations righteously (Psalm 82), and turned against God (Daniel 10:20-21).

 

[Erik Nelson]

I'm listening to the Heiser video and was surprised and pleased to hear him say something I believe, i.e., that Christ was referring to Daniel 7:13 when answering Caiaphas in Matthew 26:64.

I'm also surprised he didn't include the Septuagint version of Deuteronomy 32:8 that has angels of GOD instead of children of Israel (though he did refer to bible translations that speak of a heavenly council).

Richard Elliott Friedman's The Exodus (ch 5) argues that the LXX agrees with the DSS of Qumran that the original Hebrew text of Deuteronomy 32:8 also read "bene Elohim" the same as Psalm 82.

 

[DaveDavids]

I've always found " the watchers " to be interesting:

Dan 4:17 " This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men "


עיר `iyr (Aramaic) {eer} - watcher 3; 3 1) waking, watchful, wakeful one, watcher, angel

Also, in Daniel, we find that " gods " and " God " are rendered from the same word:

Dan 2:11 And it is a rare thing that the king requireth, and there is none other that can shew it before the king, except the gods, whose dwelling is not with flesh.



אלה 'elahh (Aramaic) {el-aw'} - God 79, god 16; 95 1) god, God 1a) god, heathen deity 1b) God (of Israel)

From:

אלוה 'elowahh {el-o'-ah rarely (shortened) אלה 'eloahh {el-o'-ah} ; TWOT - 93b; n m AV - God 52, god 5; 57 1) God 2) false god

From:

אל 'el {ale} ; TWOT - 93a; n m AV - God 213, god 16, power 4, mighty 5, goodly 1, great 1, idols 1, Immanuel + 06005 2, might 1, strong 1; 245 1) god, god-like one, mighty one 1a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes 1b) angels 1c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations) 1d) God, the one true God, Jehovah 2) mighty things in nature 3) strength, power

Here's the word used again, this time capitalized:

Dan 2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;


the gods - אלה 'elahh
a God - אלה 'elahh

 

[DaveDavids]

Also, " divine counsel " certainly seems like something that was taken very seriously in the olden days:

Tutelary Deity

..and if you read classical Judaic accounts of the indwelling of the spirit, it essentially describes the exact same thing

Holy Spirit in Judaism

 

[dysert]

Jude 1:6 = 2 Peter 2:4 = Psalm 82

Chapter 5 of The Exodus by Richard Elliott Friedman shows the "death of the gods" (Psalm 82). God speaks in the plural at the creation of mankind (Genesis 1:26), the fall of mankind (Genesis 3:22), and the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:7).

After that, God never speaks in the plural again. Instead, God judges the other gods, such as the gods of Egypt (Exodus 12:12).

The other gods, who are the sons of God (bene Elohim) per Psalm 82, had been wicked since Genesis 6 and their spawning of the Nephilim. After the Tower of Babel, God dispersed the nations, setting their boundaries according to the bene Elohim (LXX, DSS). Thus, God gave the Greeks of Greece to Zeus, etc.

According to the NIV Study Bible notes, Daniel 10:20-21 shows that those national deities were "Princes", even as Michael was the Prince of Israel, who alone fought alongside God.

If so, then it seems clear that "Zeus, Prince of the Greeks of Greece" (as it were) is equivalent in "rank" to Michael, Archangel of Israel. Zeus was the Archangel of the Greeks (as it were). Ahura Mazda was the Princely Archangel of the Persians (as it were). Ra was one of the Princely Archangels of the Egyptians (so to speak).

According to Daniel 10:20-21 = Jude 1:6 = 2 Peter 2:4 = Psalm 82, they somehow "left their proper place" and came to fight against God and His loyal Archangels -- to wit, they became the "Fallen Angels".

"Zeus" (Greece) and "Ahura Mazda" (Persia) and "Ra" (Egypt) are depicted as "Archangel rank" celestial beings who basically rebelled against God and His remaining loyal Archangels. Perhaps that's why Pharaoh's magicians were able to perform some magic??? Yet, one by one, YHWH has "silenced the heavens" (as it were), chaining rogue spirits until Judgement.

Such that currently only YHWH alone and His Heavenly Host remains.

The Bible is not being polytheistic. The other "gods" = "sons of God" are basically Archangel rank entities, of status comparable to Archangels Michael & Gabriel. The Word of God came to them (John 10:34), evidently meaning the speech / commandments / orders of God reached them, instructing them to do God's bidding as His Archangelic servants. However, they left their proper stations (Jude 1:6), stopped judging & guiding their allotted human nations righteously (Psalm 82), and turned against God (Daniel 10:20-21).

This is a good summary, to which I would add another of Heiser's teachings (from another book - not "The Unseen Realm"). If I recall correctly, he says that there are/were 70 in the council, reigning over the 70 geographies mentioned in the Table of Nations of Deuteronomy 10. (I've got to read these books again!)

 

[Der Alte]

Deut 4:35, 39; Isa 43:10-11, 44:6, 8; 40:25, 45:5, 6, 21-22; 46:5,9

Deu 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD [יהוה] he is God; there is none else beside him.
Deu 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD [יהוה] [/I]he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.[/I]
Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, [יהוה] and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; [יהוה] and beside me there is no saviour.
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD [יהוה] the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD [יהוה] of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, [יהוה] and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, [יהוה] and there is none else.
Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? [יהוה] and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.
Isa 46:5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, ​

Summary:I am God, and there is none else. (Deu 4:35) Thus saith the LORD יהוה, Before me there was no God, formed, neither shall there be [no God formed]] after me. (Isa 43:10) I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. (Isa 44:6) Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any (Isa 44:8.)

Do these passages allow for an assembly of "gods?"

 

[συνείδησις]

Richard Elliott Friedman's The Exodus (ch 5) argues that the LXX agrees with the DSS of Qumran that the original Hebrew text of Deuteronomy 32:8 also read "bene Elohim" the same as Psalm 82.

Forgive me, I'm confused. If the DSS agrees with the LXX (angels of GOD) then how does that mean the original Hebrew read bene elohim?

 

[Der Alte]

The congregation of YHWH is the nation of Israel, not some imaginary heavenly tribunal of “elohim."

Num 31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
Deu 23:8 The children that are begotten of them [Edomites, Egyptians, vs. 7] shall enter into the congregation of the LORD in their third generation.
Jos 22:16 Thus saith the whole congregation of the LORD, What trespass is this that ye have committed against the God of Israel, to turn away this day from following the LORD, in that ye have builded you an altar, that ye might rebel this day against the LORD?
1Ch 28:8 Now therefore in the sight of all Israel the congregation of the LORD, and in the audience of our God, keep and seek for all the commandments of the LORD your God: that ye may possess this good land, and leave it for an inheritance for your children after you for ever. ​

So God stood in the midst of his congregation, the nation Israel, judging unjust judges who corrupted their office and who died like the men they actually were, "they shall fall like any one (Jdg_16:7, Oba_1:11) of the princes who in the course of history have been cast down by the judgment of God (Hos_7:7)." Keil and Delitsch Hebrew commentary.
.....Other than this one psalm I don't know of any scriptural record of any actual "elohim," not judging justly, accepting the persons of the wicked. Not defending the poor and fatherless: not doing justice to the afflicted and needy. Not delivering the poor and needy: not ridding them out of the hand of the wicked? Since all this is happening in this earth see vs. 5 "all the foundations of the earth are out of course." There must be some scriptural record of actual elohim doing/not doing all these things. There is no such record because there is no such tribunal of "elohim." As God said in Isaiah, "there was no God before me, there is no God beside me and there will be no God after me. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

 

[SkyWriting]

A Divine Council is an assembly of deities over which a higher-level god presides.

The Father is not supportive of other invented gods.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Forgive me, I'm confused. If the DSS agrees with the LXX (angels of GOD) then how does that mean the original Hebrew read bene elohim?

Professor Friedman shows that the LXX always has, where the DSS have the Hebrew bene Elohim, as "angels of God" in Greek. The implication is that the LXX for some reason tried to avoid using the word "sons of God". The LXX is argued to have translated from a Hebrew text essentially identical to the DSS.

 

[Erik Nelson]

The congregation of YHWH is the nation of Israel, not some imaginary heavenly tribunal of “elohim."

Num 31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
Deu 23:8 The children that are begotten of them [Edomites, Egyptians, vs. 7] shall enter into the congregation of the LORD in their third generation.
Jos 22:16 Thus saith the whole congregation of the LORD, What trespass is this that ye have committed against the God of Israel, to turn away this day from following the LORD, in that ye have builded you an altar, that ye might rebel this day against the LORD?
1Ch 28:8 Now therefore in the sight of all Israel the congregation of the LORD, and in the audience of our God, keep and seek for all the commandments of the LORD your God: that ye may possess this good land, and leave it for an inheritance for your children after you for ever. ​

So God stood in the midst of his congregation, the nation Israel, judging unjust judges who corrupted their office and who died like the men they actually were, "they shall fall like any one (Jdg_16:7, Oba_1:11) of the princes who in the course of history have been cast down by the judgment of God (Hos_7:7)." Keil and Delitsch Hebrew commentary.
.....Other than this one psalm I don't know of any scriptural record of any actual "elohim," not judging justly, accepting the persons of the wicked. Not defending the poor and fatherless: not doing justice to the afflicted and needy. Not delivering the poor and needy: not ridding them out of the hand of the wicked? Since all this is happening in this earth see vs. 5 "all the foundations of the earth are out of course." There must be some scriptural record of actual elohim doing/not doing all these things. There is no such record because there is no such tribunal of "elohim." As God said in Isaiah, "there was no God before me, there is no God beside me and there will be no God after me. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

Daniel 10:20-21 acknowledges a "Prince of Persia" and "Prince of the Greeks" in the same breath as Archangel Michael, Prince of Israel...

There is only one God Elohim with capital first letters, but there may be / may have been numerous other godly elohim entities with lower case first letters, of a "rank" equivalent to that of an Archangel