Do you actually believe that a loving God will torture people in Hell forever?

[BobRyan]

In the perfect Calvinist future - the loving Parent looks over the ramparts of the Heavenly city to see their lost daughter suffering in the agonies of the lake of fire. They rush to God and say "oh my Loving Lord - couldn't you have done SOMETHING to save my precious child?"

To which Calvinism replies "Certainly I COULD have -- If I had CARED to".

And then adds "Don't be concerned for the welfare of others - just be glad you yourself are saved"

That is not "God so Loved the WORLD that He gave" --that is "God so arbitrarily loved and selected the FEW of Matt 7 that He gave"

If I were Calvinist - this would be a wake-up call.

 

[MennoSota]

You have "quoted you" well.

Now lets quote the actual Bible
"He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sin and NOT for OUR sins only but for the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2;2
"God so Loved THE WORLD that HE gave.." (yes really --- the WORLD)

Calvinism does not "survive the Bible"

1Jn - not an unlimited atonement verse. Johns audience is Christian. He includes the audience (our) and all the future folks that would be chosen by God (whole world). (Not one will be plucked from God's hand.)

Jn 3:16 - you conviently leave out the rest of the verse and verses surrounding.
Once again, John's world is the elect. Whosoever refers to those whom God chooses. Then read the verses before and after to see why.

Now read all of Ephesians 1 and 2. Also read Romans 9. Finally read all of Paul's letters and his greetings. Notice his statement of election. I can provide much more, within context.
I will note that I grew up in a world of semi-pelagian thinking like you are presenting. I had a lot of similar ideas, but I kept reading the Bible and noticing God's sovereignty. I was only vaguely aware of Calvin and didn't know his views. I just happened to land at a reformed Baptist Church where I was challenged with the same issues that you hold. I found that I couldn't ignore the scriptures regarding God's choosing of the elect. It runs from Genesis to Revelation and is very consistent. Contrary to your claims, the verses are quite plentiful. It was only later that I came to understand that Augustine and Calvin had read the Bible and seen the same things.
It is very hard to ignore passages in their context. Anyone can share a verse as a proof text for their pretext out of context, but when you let an entire passage speak, it is hard to ignore. Ephesians 1 and 2 are very powerful chapters.

 

[Sophrosyne]

1Jn - not an unlimited atonement verse. Johns audience is Christian. He includes the audience (our) and all the future folks that would be chosen by God (whole world). (Not one will be plucked from God's hand.)

Jn 3:16 - you conviently leave out the rest of the verse and verses surrounding.
Once again, John's world is the elect. Whosoever refers to those whom God chooses. Then read the verses before and after to see why.

Now read all of Ephesians 1 and 2. Also read Romans 9. Finally read all of Paul's letters and his greetings. Notice his statement of election. I can provide much more, within context.
I will note that I grew up in a world of semi-pelagian thinking like you are presenting. I had a lot of similar ideas, but I kept reading the Bible and noticing God's sovereignty. I was only vaguely aware of Calvin and didn't know his views. I just happened to land at a reformed Baptist Church where I was challenged with the same issues that you hold. I found that I couldn't ignore the scriptures regarding God's choosing of the elect. It runs from Genesis to Revelation and is very consistent. Contrary to your claims, the verses are quite plentiful. It was only later that I came to understand that Augustine and Calvin had read the Bible and seen the same things.
It is very hard to ignore passages in their context. Anyone can share a verse as a proof text for their pretext out of context, but when you let an entire passage speak, it is hard to ignore. Ephesians 1 and 2 are very powerful chapters.

I'm not a calvinist, but I do agree with the elect being saved on the premise that the elect is all the people who would accept God and the non elect is those who would reject God and that God already knows peoples hearts in this matter. I think that those who want to reject the idea of the elect do so on the basis that they preconceive that God would 1)force people who don't want him to accept him and 2) purposely refuse to give an invitation to those who would accept him. In other words God would be a snob in it all instead of fair and just.

It is easy to reject a God that is unfair and unjust, but a fair and just God who seeks out those who would accept him and worries less (on none) about those who he absolutely knows will reject him with regards to salvation has either a limit on God's power to see the hearts of men regarding salvation or a snob. Now we can see it is easy for legalists to limit God's power because they already do so with making Jesus' sacrifice unable to fulfill all the obligations of the Law upon believers, taking it one step further and making him unable to fairly recognize those who would accept/reject him is not much more of a leap.

 

[MennoSota]

I'm not a calvinist, but I do agree with the elect being saved on the premise that the elect is all the people who would accept God and the non elect is those who would reject God and that God already knows peoples hearts in this matter. I think that those who want to reject the idea of the elect do so on the basis that they preconceive that God would 1)force people who don't want him to accept him and 2) purposely refuse to give an invitation to those who would accept him. In other words God would be a snob in it all instead of fair and just.

It is easy to reject a God that is unfair and unjust, but a fair and just God who seeks out those who would accept him and worries less (on none) about those who he absolutely knows will reject him with regards to salvation has either a limit on God's power to see the hearts of men regarding salvation or a snob. Now we can see it is easy for legalists to limit God's power because they already do so with making Jesus' sacrifice unable to fulfill all the obligations of the Law upon believers, taking it one step further and making him unable to fairly recognize those who would accept/reject him is not much more of a leap.

The one problem with this is that no one will naturally "accept" Jesus. We are all like Adam and Eve. We run from God's presence and hide. It takes God to call out our name and draw us to Himself so that He might show His merciful redemption to us. This is the case with all humanity. The concept of "accepting" Jesus is not found in the Bible.

 

[Sophrosyne]

The one problem with this is that no one will naturally "accept" Jesus. We are all like Adam and Eve. We run from God's presence and hide. It takes God to call out our name and draw us to Himself so that He might show His merciful redemption to us. This is the case with all humanity. The concept of "accepting" Jesus is not found in the Bible.

Actually the concept of accepting Jesus is in the Bible but not worded exactly in that way because logically speaking there are those who reject Jesus who are not with him, therefore the opposite must be those who accept Jesus. I agree that our nature makes it impossible for us to want to accept God without some "encouragement" from God himself (Holy Spirit). I think the problem being is that in a sense legalists have usurped the Holy Spirit and replaced it with the Law and think that the Law must urge people towards salvation in Christ and that without participating it in they will never truly accept Jesus, and be among those who reject him instead (those who refuse the prompting of the Law upon their hearts).

 

[Bible2+]

BobRyan said in post 478:

Romans 2:11 "God is not partial" . . .

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

This simply means that he will ultimately judge all people by the same standard, regardless of whether they are Jews or Gentiles, or whether they are elect or nonelect (Romans 2:6-8; 1 Peter 1:17). So even the saved elect, whether Jews or Gentiles, have to worry about ultimately losing their salvation if they wrongly employ their free will to, for example, commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29).

BobRyan said in post 478:

. . . not making "arbitrary selections"

Note that while the Bible doesn't say by what criteria God determined which people to create as elect vessels of his mercy, and which people to create as nonelect vessels of his wrath (Romans 9:21-23), God's criteria weren't based on any differences between individual people (Romans 3:9-12), just as, for example, King David's criteria for determining which Moabites to kill and which to keep alive weren't based on any differences between the individual people (2 Samuel 8:2), and just as a potter's criteria for determining which part of a lump of clay to make a vessel unto honor, and which part of that same lump of clay to make another vessel unto dishonor, aren't based on any differences between the two parts of that same lump of clay (Romans 9:21).

Also, every believer can that know he or she is elect (chosen), because faith comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2). The nonelect can't ever believe in Jesus, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), not because they are any worse than the elect (Romans 3:9-12), but simply because God didn't choose to show them his mercy (Romans 9:15-22). The elect are shown God's mercy and grace, not based on any prior good works on their part (Titus 3:5, Ephesians 2:8-9), but because God chose (elected) them before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they had done anything at all (Romans 9:11-24).

BobRyan said in post 478:

2 Cor 5 "God was in Christ reconciling THE WORLD to Himself"

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

This doesn't mean everyone in the world. For not everyone will be reconciled to God (Matthew 25:41,46, Matthew 13:38-42), but only a relatively few people (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14) compared with all of humanity.

In the Bible, "the world" doesn't have to mean everyone in the world. Just as "the world" in John 15:18 and John 16:8-9,20 doesn't include believers, so "the world" in John 3:16 doesn't include the nonelect (Romans 9:11-22). And in the case of, for example, John 18:20, it doesn't include the vast majority of the earth's inhabitants at that time, who didn't hear Jesus speak to them during his preaching before his arrest.

BobRyan said in post 478:

"He sent his son to be the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD" 1 John 4.

1 John 4:14 ¶And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

This doesn't mean everyone in the world, for not everyone will be saved (Matthew 25:41,46), just as saying that a person has come to save Broadway wouldn't require that that person has come to save every show on Broadway.

*******

BobRyan said in post 479:

Christ never said that some of the lost are his sheep or not his sheep.

Actually, he did:

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me . . .

Just as he said that some of the lost have God as their Father (i.e. the elect), and some of the lost have the devil as their father (i.e. the nonelect):

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 ¶Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

And just as he said that some of the lost are seed sown by Jesus, and some of the lost are seed sown by the devil:

Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil . . .

BobRyan said in post 479:

Romans 9 does not say that God "does not love the nonelect" . . .

It does show that to be true:

Romans 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might
stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 ¶What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

BobRyan said in post 479:

Not one of those texts say 'The nonelect cannot believe in him" . . .

They all show that to be true:

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil . . .

BobRyan said in post 479:

He also chose the 'whosoever will' . . .

It's the other way around. Election precedes belief (Acts 13:48b, Romans 11:28).

Regarding:

John 3:16b . . . whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This simply means that anyone who believes in Jesus gets saved. It doesn't mean that everyone can believe in Jesus. For other verses show that some people (the nonelect) can't believe in him (John 6:65, John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42).

Also, John 3:16 doesn't mean that everyone will be saved, for other verses show that most people won't be saved (Matthew 25:41,46, Matthew 13:38-42, Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14).

And John 3:16 doesn't mean that God originally intended to save everyone. For before the foundation of the world, he intended to save only the elect, the chosen (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13b, Acts 13:48b).

*******

BobRyan said in post 480:

Luke 7
28 When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John.
29 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

This can be translated differently:

Luke 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

Compare:

John 12:37 ¶But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

BobRyan said in post 480:

Is 5:4
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

This doesn't mean that God wants to save everyone in the world, but simply means that the Jews in the time of Isaiah weren't acting right:

Isaiah 5:3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.
4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

BobRyan said in post 480:

. . . he faces the rebellion of his own sovereignly called "OWN".

Election doesn't take away free will.

That is, election (God's choosing) does determine salvation (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), but only initial salvation (Acts 13:48b), not ultimate salvation. For ultimate salvation will depend on a continued obedience subsequent to initial salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9).

-

All unsaved people, whether elect or nonelect, are like people who don't even know they are blind in both eyes. They can neither see any need to believe nor see any need to repent. When God miraculously grants elect people the gift of faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) and the gift of repentance (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18), it is like they can suddenly see in both eyes.

Repentance and faith initially don't involve the will or any works, just as if a blind man who didn't even know he was blind were miraculously given sight by Jesus, both his eyes would miraculously see without his will or his works having to be involved. But miraculously giving a blind man his sight also doesn't take away his free will. So he can subsequently wrongly employ his free will to blind himself, such as by staring at the sun for too long.

In the same way, once repentance and faith are miraculously received by an elect person, he still has the same free will he had before he got saved. And so he can ultimately lose his salvation if he, sometime subsequent to his initial repentance, wrongly employs his free will to return back to doing something like committing sin without repentance (2 Peter 2:20-22, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

 

[MennoSota]

Bible2+
Having been saved by grace, why do you turn back to the law to keep your salvation? Why do you preach the same message of legalism that Paul denounces in his letter to the Galatians?

 

[Sophrosyne]

I still say God is more than just enough to torment people forever without being unfair or undeservedly cruel to those in Hell. I've even contended that some torment may actually be God's way of helping those who are torturing themselves to distract them from it. I saw a show where a woman wore a rubber band and when you felt angst coming up she was told to snap that rubber band on her wrist and the pain distracted her towards it away from what was undoing her mind at the time..... such is torment I believe.

 

[mmksparbud]

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mar_16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

In the Bible, "the world" doesn't have to mean everyone in the world. Just as "the world" in John 15:18 and John 16:8-9,20 doesn't include believers, so "the world" in John 3:16 doesn't include the nonelect (Romans 9:11-22). And in the case of, for example, John 18:20, it doesn't include the vast majority of the earth's inhabitants at that time, who didn't hear Jesus speak to them during his preaching before his arrest.

of the over 200 verses the include the word "world", there are about 2-3 that might not mean the entire world, most of those you quoted do mean the world--do all the verses have to be quoted???

Is this what Calvinism is? They believe in predestination? You mean that God created people for the sole purpose of them not being able to be saved at all?? Does that mean that Jesus died to save who, then? If the "elect" are already saved, and the lost are lost then what did He die for? I am confused. I've heard the name Calvinist but did not read much about their believes----tell you the truth, I thought they were an old order of some sort that had died out or something---that's how ignorant of them I am! Well, no wonder what I said and what they say make no sense to each other!!!
Well, this thread is about God torturing people in hell forever and not about Calvinism so I'm not sure how the 2 relate----or do they believe that God has created people for the express purpose of them being tortured forever????

 

[MennoSota]

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mar_16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.



of the over 200 verses the include the word "world", there are about 2-3 that might not mean the entire world, most of those you quoted do mean the world--do all the verses have to be quoted???

Is this what Calvinism is? They believe in predestination? You mean that God created people for the sole purpose of them not being able to be saved at all?? Does that mean that Jesus died to save who, then? If the "elect" are already saved, and the lost are lost then what did He die for? I am confused. I've heard the name Calvinist but did not read much about their believes----tell you the truth, I thought they were an old order of some sort that had died out or something---that's how ignorant of them I am! Well, no wonder what I said and what they say make no sense to each other!!!
Well, this thread is about God torturing people in hell forever and not about Calvinism so I'm not sure how the 2 relate----or do they believe that God has created people for the express purpose of them being tortured forever????

Read Ephesians 1. Also read Romans 9. Finally, read the introductions of all the various letters in the New Testament and notice the use of the term "chosen." There is more, but this will suffice to help you understand the reasoning behind Calvin's views. It should be noted that Calvin, besides drawing from the Bible, drew his ideas from St Augustine who came centuries before him.
Predestination is very much a term used in the Bible. What a person will never find in the Bible is the phrase...free will.

 

[steve_bakr]

The mann

Holy scripture does provide revelation from God which is the foundation and building material for doctrine, in the matter of hell the statements of the Lord Jesus Christ present a good foundation for understanding that hell is a sate of suffering and separation from the faithful and from the presence of God. Have you a view on the matter?

The manner in which the question is asked requires a "No." The doctrine of hell is undeveloped and much is not known. We cannot say that hell lasts for all time, because we are dealing with eternity. Eternity is outside of time, which is linear. For all we know, eternity is a timeless moment. Secondly, we cannot account for the Grace of God, or exactly what takes place during the dying process. For this reason, the Catholic faith prohibits anyone--even the Pope--from saying that an individual is in hell. The wisest path is to avoid making absolutist statements.

 

[Job8]

This is a God that is FAIR and JUST and WISE? and worthy of worship?

Whose standards of fairness and justice are you applying? And why do you think that Christ came into the world to save sinners by dying on the Cross? So if you are indeed YHWH's Lion, you should pay attention to what He says, not what you would like Him to say. Here is what He says about Hell (Authorized Version). Believe it.

HELL WAS CREATED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS, BUT IS ALSO FOR THE CURSED, AND A PLACE OF EVERLASTING FIRE
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Mt 25:41).

HELL IS IN “OUTER DARKNESS”, WHERE THERE IS WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 8:11,12)
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 22:13)
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 25:30)

HELL IS FOR THE WICKED AND FOR THOSE THAT FORGET GOD
The wicked shall be turned into hell [Sheol], and all the nations that forget God (Ps 9:17). [Please note that Sheol (Hades) is presently the place of the departed dead souls which are unsaved and without Christ, awaiting their final judgement].

HELL IS A PLACE OF DAMNATION FOR THE WICKED AND THE UNBELIEVING
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Mt 23:33).
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:16).

HELL AND EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION GO TOGETHER
Hell [Sheol] and destruction [abbadown = perishing] are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men? (Prov 15:11).
Hell [Sheol] and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied. (Prov 27:20).
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: (Mt 7:13).
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2 Thess 1:9). [Note: the word “perish” (or “destruction”) means eternal ruin, not annihilation, because it is “eternal destruction”. See John 3:15,16][Question: Why would Christ need to die for sinners, if eventually they would all be annihilated (wiped out) anyhow?]

HELL IS A PLACE OF “DEVOURING FIRE” AND “EVERLASTING BURNINGS” FOR SINNERS AND HYPOCRITES
The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? (Isa 33:14).
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (Mt 5:22).

HELL IS A PLACE OF “UNQUENCHABLE FIRE” OR “EVERLASTING HELL FIRE”
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. (Mt 3:12).
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. (Mt 18:8,9).
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mk 9:43-48) [Question: If Hell is not eternal torment, why would Christ repeat His words over and over again? The corrupt Bibles have expunged these words of warning.]

THE “TARES” (THE WICKED OR UNSAVED) ARE BURNED IN A “FURNACE OF FIRE”
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn... The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth... So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 13:30,38-42; 49-50).

BODIES (ALONG WITH SOULS) ARE CAST INTO HELL
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell [Gehenna]. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and notthat thy whole body should be cast into hell [Gehenna]. (Mt 5:29,30).
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mt 10:28). [“Fear Him” refers to God]

HELL IS A PLACE OF “EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT”
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Mt 25:45,46). [Naysayers please note the precise contrast between “everlasting punishment” and “life eternal”].

EVEN HADES (NOT ETERNAL) IS A PLACE OF TORMENT AND FLAMES
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell [Hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (Lk 16:22-24). [Naysayers: This is NOT a parable, since parables don’t have actual people in dialogue with each other]. Note: When Scripture says that death and Hades (not Hell) were cast into the Lake of Fire, Death and Hades are personifications for all the unsaved dead which are occupants of Hades, and are ultimately cast into the Lake of Fire. Death and Hades are also personified in Rev 6:8.

HELL (THE LAKE OF FIRE) IS A PLACE OF ETERNAL TORMENT
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:9-11).

THE UNHOLY TRINITY WILL BE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone... And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 19:20;20:10)

THE UNSAVED AND ALL SINNERS WILL BE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire... But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev 20:15; 21:8)

 

[steve_bakr]

Whose standards of fairness and justice are you applying? And why do you think that Christ came into the world to save sinners by dying on the Cross? So if you are indeed YHWH's Lion, you should pay attention to what He says, not what you would like Him to say. Here is what He says about Hell (Authorized Version). Believe it.

HELL WAS CREATED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS, BUT IS ALSO FOR THE CURSED, AND A PLACE OF EVERLASTING FIRE
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Mt 25:41).

HELL IS IN “OUTER DARKNESS”, WHERE THERE IS WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 8:11,12)
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 22:13)
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 25:30)

HELL IS FOR THE WICKED AND FOR THOSE THAT FORGET GOD
The wicked shall be turned into hell [Sheol], and all the nations that forget God (Ps 9:17). [Please note that Sheol (Hades) is presently the place of the departed dead souls which are unsaved and without Christ, awaiting their final judgement].

HELL IS A PLACE OF DAMNATION FOR THE WICKED AND THE UNBELIEVING
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Mt 23:33).
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:16).

HELL AND EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION GO TOGETHER
Hell [Sheol] and destruction [abbadown = perishing] are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men? (Prov 15:11).
Hell [Sheol] and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied. (Prov 27:20).
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: (Mt 7:13).
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2 Thess 1:9). [Note: the word “perish” (or “destruction”) means eternal ruin, not annihilation, because it is “eternal destruction”. See John 3:15,16][Question: Why would Christ need to die for sinners, if eventually they would all be annihilated (wiped out) anyhow?]

HELL IS A PLACE OF “DEVOURING FIRE” AND “EVERLASTING BURNINGS” FOR SINNERS AND HYPOCRITES
The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? (Isa 33:14).
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (Mt 5:22).

HELL IS A PLACE OF “UNQUENCHABLE FIRE” OR “EVERLASTING HELL FIRE”
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. (Mt 3:12).
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. (Mt 18:8,9).
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mk 9:43-48) [Question: If Hell is not eternal torment, why would Christ repeat His words over and over again? The corrupt Bibles have expunged these words of warning.]

THE “TARES” (THE WICKED OR UNSAVED) ARE BURNED IN A “FURNACE OF FIRE”
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn... The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth... So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 13:30,38-42; 49-50).

BODIES (ALONG WITH SOULS) ARE CAST INTO HELL
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell [Gehenna]. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and notthat thy whole body should be cast into hell [Gehenna]. (Mt 5:29,30).
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mt 10:28). [“Fear Him” refers to God]

HELL IS A PLACE OF “EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT”
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Mt 25:45,46). [Naysayers please note the precise contrast between “everlasting punishment” and “life eternal”].

EVEN HADES (NOT ETERNAL) IS A PLACE OF TORMENT AND FLAMES
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell [Hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (Lk 16:22-24). [Naysayers: This is NOT a parable, since parables don’t have actual people in dialogue with each other]. Note: When Scripture says that death and Hades (not Hell) were cast into the Lake of Fire, Death and Hades are personifications for all the unsaved dead which are occupants of Hades, and are ultimately cast into the Lake of Fire. Death and Hades are also personified in Rev 6:8.

HELL (THE LAKE OF FIRE) IS A PLACE OF ETERNAL TORMENT
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:9-11).

THE UNHOLY TRINITY WILL BE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone... And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 19:20;20:10)

THE UNSAVED AND ALL SINNERS WILL BE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire... But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev 20:15; 21:8)

You realize, don't you, that descriptions of hell are metaphorical and not literal?

 

[mmksparbud]

Read Ephesians 1. Also read Romans 9. Finally, read the introductions of all the various letters in the New Testament and notice the use of the term "chosen." There is more, but this will suffice to help you understand the reasoning behind Calvin's views. It should be noted that Calvin, besides drawing from the Bible, drew his ideas from St Augustine who came centuries before him.
Predestination is very much a term used in the Bible. What a person will never find in the Bible is the phrase...free will.

Well, now it's starting to make sense----Calvin drew some of his ideas from outside the bible, from this St. Augustine---that is enough for me to toss that out. The whole concept of God bringing people into this world for the express purpose of torturing them forever is beyond comprehension and if it were true, Lucifer would have won not just 1/3 of the angels with him but all of them! Luckily, it isn't. That is soooooo much worse than believing in everlasting torment for those that reject Him. At least they had a chance of salvation but rejected it. With this, there is no chance. You're born to be tortured for eternity---period. That is the single most evil thing about God that anyone could possibly come up with and I know exactly who gave that idea to someone. What gets me is how anyone could possibly believe such a thing, but that is humanity for you---we're a pretty sick race with an equally sick idea of the God who created us.
What still has not been answered is why bother with having the Son of God come down here, take on our humanity, and be tortured to death??? What was the purpose of that when it's already been decided who will be saved, that was totally not needed. Or did God predestine Him for the express purpose of seeing Him writhe in agony on the cross???
And how do you know if you have been "predestined" for salvation? How do you know that you won't be one of those who think they were predestined for salvation only to have God tell them He never knew them?? Everyone God tells this to think they are saved for they were doing miracles in His name, but then they learn they were never born to be saved, only born to be tortured and never could have been saved.

 

[Job8]

You realize, don't you, that descriptions of hell are metaphorical and not literal?

That is completely false. Scripture must be taken IN ITS PLAIN LITERAL SENSE unless there is a good reason to see a metaphor presented to us. *Where their worm dieth not* stands for the constant gnawing which the person in Hell will experience is his body and soul, since worms do not exist in fire. But since the Bible makes very plain statement about a literal Lake of Fire which is everlasting fire, everlasting torment, and everlasting punishment, there is nothing metaphorical about it. Jesus said over and over again that if your eye, or hand, or foot causes you to sin, cut it off. He meant exactly what He said, because Hell is a million times worse than being maimed.

 

[MennoSota]

Well, now it's starting to make sense----Calvin drew some of his ideas from outside the bible, from this St. Augustine---that is enough for me to toss that out. The whole concept of God bringing people into this world for the express purpose of torturing them forever is beyond comprehension and if it were true, Lucifer would have won not just 1/3 of the angels with him but all of them! Luckily, it isn't. That is soooooo much worse than believing in everlasting torment for those that reject Him. At least they had a chance of salvation but rejected it. With this, there is no chance. You're born to be tortured for eternity---period. That is the single most evil thing about God that anyone could possibly come up with and I know exactly who gave that idea to someone. What gets me is how anyone could possibly believe such a thing, but that is humanity for you---we're a pretty sick race with an equally sick idea of the God who created us.
What still has not been answered is why bother with having the Son of God come down here, take on our humanity, and be tortured to death??? What was the purpose of that when it's already been decided who will be saved, that was totally not needed. Or did God predestine Him for the express purpose of seeing Him writhe in agony on the cross???
And how do you know if you have been "predestined" for salvation? How do you know that you won't be one of those who think they were predestined for salvation only to have God tell them He never knew them?? Everyone God tells this to think they are saved for they were doing miracles in His name, but then they learn they were never born to be saved, only born to be tortured and never could have been saved.

Augustine and Calvin read about predestination in the Bible. It's very much a part of God's word.

God has zero obligation to pardon any law breakers, of which both you and I are categorized. God, in His mercy and grace, condescended to earth and paid the price of atonement for those He chose. He is Sovereign. He gets to make that decision. He also gets to make the decision on whom He will not pardon.
God bothered to redeem His chosen children because He is a God of love and grace. He chose to atone for the sins of the elect. Once again, He was under no obligation to save anyone from their just sentencing.
Before the foundation of the world, God knew He would come to earth and die on the cross for His chosen children.
A person knows they are saved by God's grace. They are given the faith to believe and given the perseverance to remain faithful as they follow their Master.
There will be those to whom God says, "Depart from me. I never knew you." Read your Bible. It's all there. Read Romans 9. Your complaints are answered there, by the Apostle Paul.

 

[mmksparbud]

Augustine and Calvin read about predestination in the Bible. It's very much a part of God's word.

God has zero obligation to pardon any law breakers, of which both you and I are categorized. God, in His mercy and grace, condescended to earth and paid the price of atonement for those He chose. He is Sovereign. He gets to make that decision. He also gets to make the decision on whom He will not pardon.
God bothered to redeem His chosen children because He is a God of love and grace. He chose to atone for the sins of the elect. Once again, He was under no obligation to save anyone from their just sentencing.
Before the foundation of the world, God knew He would come to earth and die on the cross for His chosen children.
A person knows they are saved by God's grace. They are given the faith to believe and given the perseverance to remain faithful as they follow their Master.
There will be those to whom God says, "Depart from me. I never knew you." Read your Bible. It's all there. Read Romans 9. Your complaints are answered there, by the Apostle Paul.

I've read my bible, and can't find what you state. I can find nothing that states that God has made people for the express purpose of torturing them for eternity. I guess I am a little dense--please point it out to me.

 

[MennoSota]

I've read my bible, and can't find what you state. I can find nothing that states that God has made people for the express purpose of torturing them for eternity. I guess I am a little dense--please point it out to me.

Since you obviously refuse to open and read the Bible, I will provide Ephesians 1:3-14 here for you to read. Notice the word predestined in the text.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."

 

[mmksparbud]

Since you obviously refuse to open and read the Bible, I will provide Ephesians 1:3-14 here for you to read. Notice the word predestined in the text.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."

I told you I've read the bible and those scriptures in particular. I asked for verses that state that God has created people for the express purpose of torturing them for eternity.
Because----God has predestined that all should be saved. It's just that not everybody chooses Him.

2Th_2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
1Ti_2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Isa_45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

 

[MennoSota]

I told you I've read the bible and those scriptures in particular. I asked for verses that state that God has created people for the express purpose of torturing them for eternity.
Because----God has predestined that all should be saved. It's just that not everybody chooses Him.

LOL, I am sure you don't see your glaring contradiction and logic fail.
If God predestined humans for adoption, what are the others predestined for? There are only two options.
Second, no one chooses God. The Bible tells that all have gone astray and each one goes his own way. All humanity chooses to flee the presence of the Holy God. It takes His work of calling and choosing for anyone to respond. See the garden with Adam and Eve as the first example.