T'was the night

[AV1611VET]

#3 merely highlights the fact that spirituality is an intrinsic offshoot of humanities crippled psyche, and was first codified as Hinduism (if not some earlier religion).

Who came first --- the Aryans or Cain and Abel?

 

[rmwilliamsll]

Who came first --- the Aryans or Cain and Abel?

if i had the foggest about how to data C&A perhaps i could answer the question. as it is now, afaik, there is no way to answer it as C&A are unaccessible to historical analysis and dating.

 

[Chalnoth]

Who came first --- the Aryans or Cain and Abel?

Given that Cain and Abel, if I remember my Bible correctly, are reported to be the sons of Adam and Eve, I find it exceedingly unlikely that they were ever real people.

 

[FoeHammer]

Was there anything specific about the words "Krishna did it first" you didn't understand?

I wasn't referring to that part. (has no one else ever made that claim then?) I was referring to the words he copied from my post.

FoeHammer.

 

[AV1611VET]

Um --- WC --- Post 81 --- please?

 

[Baggins]

Who came first --- the Aryans or Cain and Abel?

This is like saying who came first the English people or Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson.

 

[MrGoodBytes]

Isn't it true that the Aryans came from Japheth - Noah's son?

An interesting thought. Could you provide sources for that?

Did not Cain and Abel give an offering to the same God thousands of years before Noah?

Doubtful, given that these two were supposed to be the sons of the nonexistant Adam.

Isn't it true that monotheism predates polytheism by thousands of years?

Really? That's strange, I always thought that it was the other way round. Care to list your non-biblical sources?

Hinduism the oldest religion on earth? --- Not hardly.

One of these days, you should give all those historians a call and see what they think about your notions.

 

[Morcova]

Who came first --- the Aryans or Cain and Abel?

The Aryans, Cain and Abel are as real as Zeuz and Hera.

 

[Tomk80]

With a Christmas Tree?

Why not? It's not like the christmas tree has a christian origin? Why would a christian gather round a christmas tree?

Mistletoe?

Same here. The mistletoe is a symbol, and not a christian one at that. It is inherently pagan. You can celebrate what the symbol signifies.

And, pray tell, singing traditional Christmas hymns?

If you like, why not? I'll sing buddist, islamic or hindu songs also if I think they sound nice. We don't at home, we just put on Mozart.

And, just by coincidence, December 24th or 25th?

Dates not derived from christianity, but from pagan celebrations.

Nope --- I say atheists do this stuff in spite of their belief --- not in respect to it.

I would argue that christians celebrate christmas the way they do in spite of their religion much more than atheists do. They put up pagan symbols near a pagan tree on a date derived from pagan holidays. I really cannot imagine a less christian thing to do than celebrate all of these 'christian' holidays using all of the pagan symbolism christians use.

 

[AV1611VET]

I would argue that christians celebrate christmas the way they do in spite of their religion much more than atheists do. They put up pagan symbols near a pagan tree on a date derived from pagan holidays. I really cannot imagine a less christian thing to do than celebrate all of these 'christian' holidays using all of the pagan symbolism christians use.

You're making the same mistake the Canaanites did before the Exodus: thinking that God must work on a first-come/first-serve basis.

Pagans don't hold a monopoly on the Evergreen tree, December 25th, or any other thing.

They may get off celebrating the Winter Solstice, but when God says 'step aside', He means it.

• [bible]Exodus 9:29[/bible]
• [bible]Psalm 24:1[/bible]

 

[Chalnoth]

And you are totally and utterly missing the point, AV1611VET. The point is that you don't have to be a Christian to put up a tree and decorate it.

 

[AV1611VET]

And you are totally and utterly missing the point, AV1611VET. The point is that you don't have to be a Christian to put up a tree and decorate it.

I totally agree, Chalnoth --- as long as it doesn't lead to idol worship:

[bible]Jeremiah 10:1-5[/bible]

 

[Chalnoth]

Seriously, what do you care if non-Christians worship idols?

 

[lemmings]

AV, why should non-Christians follow YOUR rules? The United States in NOT a democracy, it is a republic so the majority does NOT rule. Republics are meant to protect the MINORITIES such as atheists and Muslims.

Lets say that the tides turned and Christianity was a minority as it is in many places of the world. Sweden has a nearly 85% atheistic population, this is the same as the Christian population in the United States. Should the atheists there tear down Christian Churches just because they are a minority? Do they?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

You're making the same mistake the Canaanites did before the Exodus: thinking that God must work on a first-come/first-serve basis.

And what makes you think your god doesn't?

Pagans don't hold a monopoly on the Evergreen tree, December 25th, or any other thing.

On the contrary, Christmas is celebrated as it is because of the Pagan Winter festival. Are you seriously suggesting that the similarities between Christmas and Yule are coincidental?

They may get off celebrating the Winter Solstice, but when God says 'step aside', He means it.

Nonsense. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that Christmas should be on the Pagan Yule (a celebration of the birth of the (Sun) God, complete with kissing-under-the-mistletoe-for-fertility, burning yule logs, etc), the Babylonian feast of the Son of Isis (with much partying and gift-giving), the Roman Saturnalia (with Mummers going round entertaining neighbors; i.e., the first Carol singers), etc.
The traditions of Christmas are purely derived from non-Christian sources that predate Christianity, much as the traditional image of the Christian Devil is purely derived from images of non-Christian male deities.

 

[Tomk80]

You're making the same mistake the Canaanites did before the Exodus: thinking that God must work on a first-come/first-serve basis.

Pagans don't hold a monopoly on the Evergreen tree, December 25th, or any other thing.

They may get off celebrating the Winter Solstice, but when God says 'step aside', He means it.

• [bible]Exodus 9:29[/bible]
• [bible]Psalm 24:1[/bible]

And that is my point, christians do not hold a monopoly on these things either. Just like chritians co-opted the pagan holidays, atheists coopt the christian/pagan holidays. We celebrate them because (we think) it is good to have days together with your family, where you are grateful to be together. There is no celebration in spite our 'belief' going on. Just a cooption of christian holidays.

 

[Tomk80]

I totally agree, Chalnoth --- as long as it doesn't lead to idol worship:

[bible]Jeremiah 10:1-5[/bible]

Why would an atheist worship anything?

 

[Aron-Ra]

...Hindusim in particular, (being the oldest religion on earth)...

Now I have a question for you --- do you believe this?

Why shouldn't I? I know an awful lot about ancient religions, and everyone else I know of who does, and all outward indications- say that Hinduism is the oldest continuously practiced religion on earth.

Before you answer, consider this copy-and-paste from wsu.edu:

• The earliest history of the Aryans in India is called the Rigvedic Period (1700-1000 BC) after the religious praise poems that are the oldest pieces of literature in India.

I already knew that. But there are older documents from the Indus valley.

Stamp seal with unicorn and ritual offering stand, ca. 2000–1900 B.C.; Harappan. Indus Valley, Harappa, 8796-01. Indus inscription. Steatite; L. 5.2 cm (2 in.); W. 5.2 cm (2 in.). Harappa Museum, Harappa H99-4064. Courtesy of the Department of Archaeology and Museums, Ministry of Minorities, Culture, Sports, Tourism, and Youth Affairs, Government of Pakistan. Photograph © www.metmuseum.org

Now --- here are some more questions for you:

1. What religion did the conquered people practice?

If you're asking me what religion preceded Hinduism in India, I would have no idea. I would jave to guess that they had a form of primitive polytheism like everyone else at that time. And as I said before, there are references in the Rig Veda to imply that it is much older than the evidence of Aryan habitation we know of now.

2. Were the Aryans the oldest people on earth?

Oh no! Not by a long shot. But they are ancient. Even the Kurgan are believed to have descended from Aryans, and the Kurgan already had well-established cities across what is now western Russia 6,000 years ago.

3. If not, what religion did their predecessors practice?

No idea. Prior to say, 2200 BCE, there are no syllabic texts anymore, and all we have are petroglyphs with little or no religious reference at all.

4. Isn't it true that the Aryans came from Japheth - Noah's son?

No, it is not. Noah is now a largely fictional character, but one based on a [more likely real] person now known as either utnapishtim, Ziusudra, or Atrahasis, or (by whatever name) the son of Ubar-Tutu, king of Babylon until the time of "the flood" of the Tigris-Euphrates flood plain at the end of the Jemdat-Nasr period in the 29th century BCE. The Aryans had already spread over most of Europe by then.

5. Didn't Noah, a non-Japhethite, build an altar to the Lord?

In the earliest stories involving a Noah character, there is usually an alter to the gods of the Mesopotamian pantheon, the oldest religion we know anything about, and possibly older than any form of Hinduism. But that religion died out entirely thousands of years ago, leaving Hinduism as the oldest continuously-practiced religion on earth.

6. Did not Cain and Abel give an offering to the same God thousands of years before Noah?

No. Cain and Abel are entirely fictional, made up out of whole cloth, some time long after "the flood", and with no basis in reality whatsoever.

7. Isn't it true that monotheism predates polytheism by thousands of years?

No. Pollytheism predates monotheism by thousands of years. The first monotheistic religion was the worship of the sun-disk, Aten, as popularized by the Pharoah, Akenaten (AKA Amenhotep) around 1500 BCE. The second is Zoroastrianism, founded around 600 BCE, and generally considered to have significantly influenced the formation of all western monotheism thereafter.

Hinduism the oldest religion on earth? --- Not hardly.

Definitely.

 

[AV1611VET]

Seriously, what do you care if non-Christians worship idols?

Ask the victims of the Aum Shinri Kyo subway attacks, or the next-of-kin of the 9-11 attacks.

 

[AV1611VET]

The traditions of Christmas are purely derived from non-Christian sources that predate Christianity, much as the traditional image of the Christian Devil is purely derived from images of non-Christian male deities.

If that sentence is true, then it was done in spite of the Bible:

• [bible]Colossians 2:8[/bible]