Works Relation to Salvation

[Bob S]

No one is saved by the law. We are only saved by grace through faith. In the OT it was faith in Jesus pointing forward to the Cross and now its faith in Jesus pointing back to the Cross. It's the only way anyone is saved. Eph 2:8

Then why did your prophet tell the church the following:

But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}

That statement along with many more smacks of salvation by works of the law. Salvation by what we do not by what Jesus has done for us.

Rahab was saved by faith

Heb 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.

Rehab was a gentile. She didn't observe the Sabbath yet she was saved. So much for Ellen's false teaching. Maybe no one reads her writings anymore and are just paying lip service to her.

Faith is not passive James 1:22 Rom 3:31 and this is how the faithful live all throughout scripture

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

1Jn3:19-24 19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Verses 19-24, in a nut shell. is keeping God's commandments. Keeping God's commands is not trying to observe old covenant rituals.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Then why did your prophet tell the church the following:

But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}

That statement along with many more smacks of salvation by works of the law. Salvation by what we do not by what Jesus has done for us.


Rehab was a gentile. She didn't observe the Sabbath yet she was saved. So much for Ellen's false teaching. Maybe no one reads her writings anymore and are just paying lip service to her.

1Jn3:19-24 19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Verses 19-24, in a nut shell. is keeping God's commandments. Keeping God's commands is not trying to observe old covenant rituals.

There is no scripture that says we are saved in our sins - our salvation is from sin. Mat 1:21 and sin is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4 and Paul and Jesus quote from the Ten Commandments as the law that defines sin Rom 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 breaking one commandment is like breaking them all James says only quoting and contrasting the Ten James 2:10-12 why Jesus taught not to break or teach others to break the least of these Mat 5:19-30

While we are not saved by keeping the law because everyone has sinned and fallen short Romans 3:23 we are all saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8 however the lost those who are hostile to God's law Rom 8:7-8 Heb 10:26-30 Mat 7:21-23 Rev 22:14-15 live differently than the saved. Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14. The saved do not keep God's law to be saved, its because Jesus has changed us from the inside out and through faith and love in Jesus we obey Him as the saved live differently than the lost John 14:15, Exo 20:6 Rom 3:31 Rev 14:12 and that is what reconciles us back to Him Rev 22:14

 

[Bob S]

It is enshrined in God's Law that a Gentile who partakes of the Passover, and adopts God's covenant, is to be considered "As one that is homeborn". Or as it is written, "There is no Jew or Greek in the Word of God which became Flesh, AKA "Christ".

Lev. 19: 33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. 34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

So your religious philosophy that Gentiles were never under God's instructions, is simply Biblically untrue.

I never said Gentiles were never given instructions by God. I have always indicated that Gentiles were never under the laws of the old covenant that was only given to one nation, Israel.

I'm not sure the Scriptures support this preaching that the Pharisees, Greek god worshipping Romans, were all given the Holy Spirit when the first Church of God under His Prophesied New Priest were gathered together on His Holy Feast, "Pentecost". Having counted the days correctly from the Last Day of Unleavened Bread, in obedience to God and the Feasts of the Lord?

Where is your evidence that God's Holy spirit was poured out on those who "Transgress God's Commandments"? Can you provide something from scriptures which make Peter's words below, void?

If you are not sure then I would submit to you that all mankind are and have always been since Adam and Eve been transgressors. Those that received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost were sinners. Jesus didn't say He would send the Comforter so make sure you are sinless before I send Him or you will not receive Him.

Acts 5: 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Why were they gathered on Pentecost? Is it not because the Jesus "of the Bible" instructed them to "Keep the commandments"?

Yep, those Jews had not received the Good News as of yet. They were still obeying the laws of the old covenant.

What Spirit "Ordained Good works beforehand, that His People should walk in them"? What Spirit sent the Light" of the World, the Jesus of the bible? If I walk in the Commandments and Judgments of God, am I not walking in the Spirit? Did Abraham not "Walk in the Spirit"? And Zacharias and Simeon?

Luke 1: 5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

67 And his father Zacharias "was filled with the Holy Ghost", and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

Would this be a different Spirit than was given on Pentecost? Was the Spirit God gave to them on Pentecost, not the Same "Helper" Jesus Promised, which God gave to Zacharias and Simeon?

These are prudent questions, relevant to the discussion.

Certainly Jesus didn't just invent the Holy Spirit to be given to mankind after He ascended to Heaven. The role the Holy Spirit became different at Pentecost. Man cannot comprehend many things God has done since He made man.

 

[Gary K]

So sorry you have to use disparaging judgment on others because you cannot stand to hear the real truth. I sense that there is not any love in your heart for those you chastise.

You may very well know that you are saved. I only wrote that the doctrine of the church teaches that one should never say they are saved.

By the way, knowing the Godhead does not save anyone. Believing Jesus is our Savior and loving others as He has taught us is the key to salvation. It is a personal relationship with Jesus and allowing His Spirit to guide us that gives us real assurance.

You don't understand so much. Having assurance today does not mean a person cannot change their mind later by losing their relationship with God. That happened with both of my parents and they drove me away from God and into drug addiction. This is a direct result of the Adventist church walking away from the righteousness by faith message in 1888 which is that it takes a strong relationship with God to reflect His image and draw people to Him. It ruined my life and I pay the penalty for it every day of my life.

It takes daily effort to build a strong relationship with God. It takes daily prayer, Bible study, and witnessing, along with daily surrender to Him, to build and keep a saving relationship with God.

It's like Paul said, I die daily.

 

[Bob S]

There is no scripture that says we are saved in our sins - our salvation is from sin. Mat 1:21 and sin is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4 and Paul and Jesus quote from the Ten Commandments as the law that defines sin Rom 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 breaking one commandment is like breaking them all James says only quoting and contrasting the Ten James 2:10-12 why Jesus taught not to break or teach others to break the least of these Mat 5:19-30

While we are not saved by keeping the law because everyone has sinned and fallen short Romans 3:23 we are all saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8 however the lost those who are hostile to God's law Rom 8:7-8 Heb 10:26-30 Mat 7:21-23 Rev 22:14-15 live differently than the saved. Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14. The saved do not keep God's law to be saved, its because Jesus has changed us from the inside out and through faith and love in Jesus we obey Him as the saved live differently than the lost John 14:15, Exo 20:6 Rom 3:31 Rev 14:12 and that is what reconciles us back to Him Rev 22:14

Again, I ask you to find in all of scripture where God ever required Gentile nations to observe the laws given to only one nation. Do those of us in other countries have to obey the laws of England?

 

[HIM]

You do not have a clue, too bad.

Since you haven't Clued me in that means you can't. Your Silence speaks.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Again, I ask you to find in all of scripture where God ever required Gentile nations to observe the laws given to only one nation. Do those of us in other countries have to obey the laws of England?

I believe Jesus- everyone means just that Isa 56:6 and man is not how one spells Jew. Mark 2:27 God made the Sabbath for everyone- which is the stranger within our gate means Exo 20:10- no one is missing, only those who want to be.

 

[Bob S]

You don't understand so much. Having assurance today does not mean a person cannot change their mind later by losing their relationship with God. That happened with both of my parents and they drove me away from God and into drug addiction. This is a direct result of the Adventist church walking away from the righteousness by faith message in 1888 which is that it takes a strong relationship with God to reflect His image and draw people to Him. It ruined my life and I pay the penalty for it every day of my life.

It takes daily effort to build a strong relationship with God. It takes daily prayer, Bible study, and witnessing, along with daily surrender to Him, to build and keep a saving relationship with God.

It's like Paul said, I die daily.

Maybe I understand more than you perceive I do. Because of what your parents did does not give you the right to blame them for causing you to become a drug addict. That was your decision. I am sorry you fell into that trap and am grateful you have overcome, but blaming others for something you could have avoided is directly on you.

You don't understand so much. Having assurance today does not mean a person cannot change their mind later by losing their relationship with God. That happened with both of my parents and they drove me away from God and into drug addiction. This is a direct result of the Adventist church walking away from the righteousness by faith message in 1888 which is that it takes a strong relationship with God to reflect His image and draw people to Him. It ruined my life and I pay the penalty for it every day of my life.

Seems to me you aught to be rejoicing in place of the apparent pity party you are mired in. Rejoice for you have found the Lord and can pronounce to the World that you have found salvation and thus for eternity you will continue to rejoice. Amen, brother.

It takes daily effort to build a strong relationship with God. It takes daily prayer, Bible study, and witnessing, along with daily surrender to Him, to build and keep a saving relationship with God.

Claim the promise:
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude1

 

[Studyman]

I never said Gentiles were never given instructions by God. I have always indicated that Gentiles were never under the laws of the old covenant that was only given to one nation, Israel.

But if a Gentile is considered as one born among them, then are they not also "Under the same Law" as Israel if they break them? What Laws did the people of Sodom transgress? What Laws did the Amalekites break?

I don't think you have thought your religious philosophy through very good Bob.

If you are not sure then I would submit to you that all mankind are and have always been since Adam and Eve been transgressors. Those that received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost were sinners.

You have your religion, this undeniable truth has been well established. What I am pointing out for you, is the glaring contradictions between what you promote, and what the scriptures actually say.

Peter said, Acts 5: 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Now I have you, who comes in Christ's Name, calling Him Lord, Lord, "Professing to know God", preaching to the world that God gives His Holy Spirit to those who disobey Him.

So once again, there is the Gospel of Christ which we can read in the Bible, and there is the gospel of Bob, which contradicts the Words of Christ and the God Inspired Holy scriptures.

Surely you can see why I would "take heed" of the Philosophies you are promoting, given these contradictions.

Jesus didn't say He would send the Comforter so make sure you are sinless before I send Him or you will not receive Him.

Well Bob, lets both take a look at what Jesus did say.

John 14: 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So given I believe HIM, and I also pointed out in Scriptures, that the religious philosophy you promoted, "God gives His Spirit to those who disobey Him" is a falsehood, according to Peter. And another Scripture which teaches that Jesus Gives the Spirit of Truth to those who obey Him.

Clearly there is a huge disconnect between the religion you have adopted and are now promoting, and what the Christ of the Bible actually teaches. Shall I not take heed?

Yep, those Jews had not received the Good News as of yet. They were still obeying the laws of the old covenant.

Fascinating. So in your religion, God gave His Holy Spirit to disobedient sinners, and the Pharisees who you preach to the world were trying to earn God's favor by obedience to Him, He withheld His Spirit.

LOL, and let me get this right. The Disciples of Jesus, and all those who were part of the Church of God under His New Priesthood, even though they walked with Jesus, were taught by Jesus, were healed and forgiven by Jesus, "had not received the Gospel of Christ yet".

Where do you get this stuff?

Certainly Jesus didn't just invent the Holy Spirit to be given to mankind after He ascended to Heaven. The role the Holy Spirit became different at Pentecost. Man cannot comprehend many things God has done since He made man.

Well, as we have established, you have your own religion. And it is true that without the Spirit of Truth, man cannot comprehend many things about God. I don't agree though, that the role of the Spirit of Truth which was on Zacharias, or Abraham, or Caleb, played a different roll after the Prophesied Lamb of God was slain.

But then I don't believe God promised His Spirit to those who disobey Him either.

 

[Bob S]

I believe Jesus- everyone means just that Isa 56:6 and man is not how one spells Jew. Mark 2:27 God made the Sabbath for everyone- which is the stranger within our gate means Exo 20:10- no one is missing, only those who want to be.

I believe Jesus came to save mankind. I also believe He came to fulfil the Law and the Prophets, all the Law and all the prophesies concerning His coming to save mankind. I do not believe He failed His mission like some believe. He fulfilled every tittle of the law so that we might find salvation not under that Law, but under His Grace. Salvation never came to Israel by the Law. Israelites were saved the same way Abraham was.

If Mark 2:22 is taken literally then why did God just demand that Israel observe sabbath. Why didn't God reveal it to all nations. Why did Jesus come and fulfil, bring it to an end, the prophesies and the law?

 

[Bob S]

But if a Gentile is considered as one born among them, then are they not also "Under the same Law" as Israel if they break them? What Laws did the people of Sodom transgress? What Laws did the Amalekites break?

I don't think you have thought your religious philosophy through very good Bob.

Sorry Studyman, the only way a Gentile would have come under the Law was if he agreed to circumcision. Gentiles were never required to observe Torah unless they became as an Israelite. You are totally wrong. The Sodomites and Amalekites were never under Torah. We are born with the knowledge of right verses wrong. God must have had covenants with those countries that we are not privy to.

You have your religion, this undeniable truth has been well established. What I am pointing out for you, is the glaring contradictions between what you promote, and what the scriptures actually say.

And I tell you that your perception of what you point out is unfounded

Peter said, Acts 5: 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Now I have you, who comes in Christ's Name, calling Him Lord, Lord, "Professing to know God", preaching to the world that God gives His Holy Spirit to those who disobey Him.

We all disobey Him Studyman. Why would a total righteous person (if one ever existed )need the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

So once again, there is the Gospel of Christ which we can read in the Bible, and there is the gospel of Bob, which contradicts the Words of Christ and the God Inspired Holy scriptures.

Opinions, yes everyone has them. I take yours as just that.

Surely you can see why I would "take heed" of the Philosophies you are promoting, given these contradictions.

Oh I can see alright. I can see that you have one foot in the old covenant and are unable to see the blessings of the new and better one.

Well Bob, lets both take a look at what Jesus did say.

John 14: 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
So given I believe HIM, and I also pointed out in Scriptures, that the religious philosophy you promoted, "God gives His Spirit to those who disobey Him" is a falsehood, according to Peter. And another Scripture which teaches that Jesus Gives the Spirit of Truth to those who obey Him.

Clearly there is a huge disconnect between the religion you have adopted and are now promoting, and what the Christ of the Bible actually teaches. Shall I not take heed?

Jn15;
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

So studyman, after reading Jn15:10-14 what does Jesus say His commandments are?

You cannot be serious about who the Holy spirit is poured out to. Do you ever disobey Jesus Studyman? I contend that we are all sinners and if your theory is correct then no one has the Holy Spirit abiding in them. What a strange belief you have.

Fascinating. So in your religion, God gave His Holy Spirit to disobedient sinners, and the Pharisees who you preach to the world were trying to earn God's favor by obedience to Him, He withheld His Spirit.

Jesus came to save Pharisees too. We are all disobedient sinners. How many times do I have to tell you what scripture is telling us?

LOL, and let me get this right. The Disciples of Jesus, and all those who were part of the Church of God under His New Priesthood, even though they walked with Jesus, were taught by Jesus, were healed and forgiven by Jesus, "had not received the Gospel of Christ yet".

I am not the judge thank goodness. I do believe they all had a lot to learn just as we do.

Where do you get this stuff?

Read scripture my friend.

Well, as we have established, you have your own religion. And it is true that without the Spirit of Truth, man cannot comprehend many things about God. I don't agree though, that the role of the Spirit of Truth which was on Zacharias, or Abraham, or Caleb, played a different roll after the Prophesied Lamb of God was slain.

Then give us a reason why Jesus would tell the disciples that He would give them the Comforter if the Comforter was already in mankind?

But then I don't believe God promised His Spirit to those who disobey Him either.

Only by acknowledging that you are a disobedient child of God could you ever believe that it is to the disobedient that the Holy Spirit dwells.

Do you believe at Pentecost that all who received the Holy Spirit were not sinners.

Are not the words disobedient and sinners congruent? according to what you write they are not.

 

[Gary K]

Maybe I understand more than you perceive I do. Because of what your parents did does not give you the right to blame them for causing you to become a drug addict. That was your decision. I am sorry you fell into that trap and am grateful you have overcome, but blaming others for something you could have avoided is directly on you.

Seems to me you aught to be rejoicing in place of the apparent pity party you are mired in. Rejoice for you have found the Lord and can pronounce to the World that you have found salvation and thus for eternity you will continue to rejoice. Amen, brother.

Claim the promise:
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude1

Self pity? I was one messed up person. On our academy senior trip a girl I really like came up behind me grabbed me by the hand and started walking beside me. My only thought was that she would begin getting bullied like I had been my entire life by my entire family and at school. I couldn't stand that thought so I pulled loose from her and took off running. I was a complete and total misfit. I thought I had no value whatsoever. As a result of of that I started doing drugs to burn out my brain so I wouldn't remember all the years of abuse.

I claim Ezekiel 36: 25 ¶ Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

And 1Corinthians 1: 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

I need God's wisdom every day to detect the temptations of the devil. God keeps His word. He does what He promises. He cleanses us from sin if we will only believe Him. You obviously don't.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Gary my friend,

Please don't get sucked into believing, excepting or justifying the insidious falsehood that God placed 613 Laws on the necks of those HE saved out of Egypt. There is not ONE Person, Ever, in the entire history of the Bible, that God placed 613 Laws on. This entire philosophy is a deception created by the prince of this world, to demean the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, and make Him into an unjust tyrant that first did mighty works to prove to Israel that HE was the God of Abraham their father, and after they trusted Him, and followed His out of Egypt, He placed a Yoke of Bondage, 613 Laws on them and commanded that they keep them all. And that HE lied to them, by telling them they were for their own good, and that they could obey them, and when they didn't obey 613 laws perfectly, God slaughtered them by the thousands. So then, inspired by the prince of this world, they created an image of the Christ, who is to save them, not from sin, but from God His Father, and the Yoke of Bondage of 613 Laws they preach God placed on their shoulders, that are impossible to obey.

Don't be deceived by them regarding this issue. Jesus walked in Every Law that God placed on a man, and HE called this Yoke, "Light" and not burdensome. If you do the work, and you study the Scriptures for yourself, you will find that the God "of the bible" never placed 613 Laws on the back of Jesus or "ANYONE" EVER, in the entire history of Scriptures. Not One Person, not ONE time. This insidious lie, AKA "Leaven", has infected "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, and "many" have been snared by the prince of this world to promote it.

Don't be deceived by them Gary. The entire "613 Laws of God" doctrine is an old Jewish teaching, recording in the Talmud, not the Bible. It's not true. God never placed 613 Laws on the backs of even ONE person. Religious men, "who transform themselves into Apostles of Christ" use this ancient falsehood to promote and justify their rejection of God's Judgments, Statutes and Commandments. This lie is accepted as truth by, and is part of the very foundation of, mainstream Christianity.

But when you look at the so called "list", you can see how they deceptively use them to paint the God of Abraham in a bad light.

One has to realise that the Pharisees did not follow the Torah alone. They compiled the Tulmud, which added many extra rules which God never instituted. Jesus said through them and that is why He saw them as super religious hypocrites. We have those type of people in our churches today - the ones who add all their own non-Biblical rules to the Scripture and treat those who don't follow them as being second-class Christians. But those who are new creations in Christ are well out of range of all that, and have been set free from these laws of sin and death.

 

[HIM]

That was your decision. I am sorry you fell into that trap and am grateful you have overcome, but blaming others for something you could have avoided is directly on you.

Nice box you made. Good luck fitting everyone in it. Sadly not all are as strong as you and had been led down a wrong path by other people’s actions when they were young. Those who have been are responsible for the choices they made. But the actions of others Who led them astray also have a responsibility. For Jesus said, it would be better if a Millstone was hung around their neck, and they were cast in to the depths of the sea then that they offend one of the little ones. Offend here in the Greek means caused to stumble fyi.

Maybe you should say less and listen more huh?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You are seriously misunderstanding Romans 7 and 8. What you are sharing is not true.


None of what you posted above addresses your misuse of what Paul said in Romans 8 when he said, "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death." A little leaven leavens the whole.

I don't know what the relevance the last sentence has to do with your quote of the Romans 8 verse.

The law in the above phrase is not the law or a law found in the Book of the Law or of the decalogue. Most people don't understand these text so you are not alone. Please follow along.
Paul says that he does what he doesn't want to do because sin dwells in him in Rom 7:20. After saying this he says in context to it in verse 21, "I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me."

In other words not being able to control himself (ourselves) because of the indwelling sin is the law he found. This is brought out even further by the next two verses.

Paul says that he delights in the Law of God in relation to the good that he wants to do. But then he says he sees ANOTHER law in his members. This OTHER law that he says he found, the law that when he would do good evil is present with him. It is through this law he does what he would not, because of the sin that dwells in him. He as we can't help ourselves.

What this shows is that because of the sin which is present in his flesh, he is unable to keep the Law. This was the whole problem with the Old Covenant. It was continually broken because of the sinfulness of man making him unable to keep the law perfectly. And trying to live by the Law but unable to keep it brought condemnation. This is why blood sacrifices was a necessary part of those under the Old Covenant. Those sacrifices, plus the yearly sprinkling of the blood over the Mercy Seat, covered the sins of those who had faith in the Messiah to come.

O wretched man that I am who shall deliver me (us) from this body of death that has sin dwelling in it?

He is reflecting the hopelessness of someone whose heart wants to follow the Law but fails all the time.

Then because of the good that Paul wants to do He thanks God through Jesus Christ that he serves the Law of God with His mind. But there is a contrast in his flesh that he can not do what he would. He is in captivity, serving the law of sin in and with his flesh.

But Paul doesn't leave it there. He shows that it is Christ and His finished work on the Cross makes all the difference.

However there is therefore NOW no condemnation to us who are in Christ Jesus he continues in chapter 8. We who walk after the Spirit, His Spirit and not after the flesh, the sin that dwells in it.

The actual verse says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ." The added bit about not walking after the flesh is not in the best manuscripts. What Paul is saying is that those who are in Christ and have faith in Him have no more struggle with the flesh. He can consider himself dead to sin.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin, the law that he found and is, the law that when we would do good evil is present with us. The law that we do what we would not, because of the sin that dwells in us and the result of it is death. For the wages of sin is death. (Rom 6:23)

The presence of sin in our mortal bodies is the reason why we grow old and die. This is why when we will be resurrected to life when Christ comes to rapture His bride, we will be resurrected in gloried bodies, having left our sinful bodies back in the grave.

For what the law, the law of God that we serve with our minds could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh that had sin dwelling in it, God sent his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law of God might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit of Christ Jesus whom we are in. And He in us that the world might believe.

The righteousness of Christ that we received through our faith in Him, is because Jesus kept the Law perfectly and became our substitute, dying on the Cross to take the full penalty for our sinfulness. "He who knew no sin became sin for us so that we may become the righteousness of God in Him." Those who have become new creations in Christ through receiving Him as Saviour and Lord, will not walk after the flesh, not because they decide to, but it is no longer a part of his new nature. Paul said, "If we live in the Spirit, we must walk in the Spirit". "If we walk in the light as Jesus is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin." We don't have to make a decision to try and not walk after the flesh, being filled with the Spirit means that we will walk in the Spirit, and the flesh will no longer have any relevance for us. Paul lists the sins that the Ephesians once did before they received Christ, and he says, that although they were once practicing all those sins, they are no longer like that. This is because as new creations in Christ, they have become people with a completely new nature.

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. So say not in your heart, who shall bring Christ, through which we recieve the Word, His commandments and statutes contained in the Book of the Law in the heart down from above or up from the deep. But the righteousness of faith speaks this. The Word is in your heart and in your mouth that you can do it. That the righteousness of the Law, the Law of God be fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit of Christ and not after the flesh, the sin that dwells in us. This is the word of faith in which we preach.

While you are saying that we "should" walk in newness of life, my view is that because those who have become new creations in Christ do walk in newness of life because of the indwelling Holy Spirit. If there are those who are not walking in newness of life, it means that they don't have the indwelling Holy Spirit and still need to undergo the transformation that comes with genuine conversion to Christ. Paul says that those who don't have the Spirit of Christ (that is, the indwelling Holy Spirit) are none of His. Therefore, it is not the old man with the Christian "badge" trying to follow the Law, but a totally new man who has received the righteousness of Christ who is walking in the Spirit as he is led of the Spirit.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Deut 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

I don't know why you have merged New Covenant teaching with Old Covenant requirement. Deuteronomy was written to Jews under the Old Covenant. They are descriptive for Christian believers but not prescriptive.

So, the upshot of all this is that it is not a matter that we "should" not walk in the flesh, but that as new creations in Christ we do not sin because we are born of God. This means that a believer who has been born anew and is a new creation in Christ, wouldn't even think of even wanting to break any of the Ten Commandments, and it he falls off the holiness wagon through the weakness of his flesh, he does not hide it from God but openly declares to Him that he has fallen below God's standard, and as a result he is immediately forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness.

 

[sparow]

Again, the Law could not save anyone. Rahab was a gentile without the Law. Rehab was saved just like Abraham and anyone else that believed and served God with all their hearts. SDAs are told never to say they are saved. They believe their salvation hinges on how well they perform, mainly keeping Sabbath according to their teachings which comes from their prophet.

Think about this, do you think your salvation depends on how badly you perform; how is how badly different to how well and are not both determined by the same Law?

 

[Bob S]

Think about this, do you think your salvation depends on how badly you perform; how is how badly different to how well and are not both determined by the same Law?

Salvation does not depend on what we do, it depends on what Jesus did for us. Does that mean I can do anything I like? Absolutely not.

 

[sparow]

Salvation does not depend on what we do, it depends on what Jesus did for us. Does that mean I can do anything I like? Absolutely not.

Well, the issue is to do with who WE is; are WE them who have been called (to do what?) and later if WE have done what God required, (what James called works, and upset Luther), are chosen?

There is no salvation outside of the covenant; even Jesus's blood is meaningless, except in the context of the covenant, the covenant that most abrogate.

 

[sparow]

Then why did your prophet tell the church the following:

But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}

That statement along with many more smacks of salvation by works of the law. Salvation by what we do not by what Jesus has done for us.

I do not see anything wrong with what the Prophet has said; men and women (outside of the OT, where the prophets are authenticated in Christ should not be used as authorities), should not be used as authorities.

It was the Pharisees who made the Law a heavy burden, and caused many to fail, but what will be the plight of those who abrogate the Law, and how is this different to the Pharisees making the Law distasteful, causing most to not enter in. Itis possible to Keep the Law or parts of it, at the same time disregard God. Solomon said it is more profitable to keep the Law than not, in this life, even when God is disregarded.

 

[Bob S]

Well, the issue is to do with who WE is; are WE them who have been called (to do what?) and later if WE have done what God required, (what James called works, and upset Luther), are chosen?

i could have used "I' but that would sound possessive and you would still comment negatively. Even Martin Luther didn't understand James. James was referring to good deeds not the works of the old covenant expired covenant given only to Israel.

There is no salvation outside of the covenant; even Jesus's blood is meaningless, except in the context of the covenant, the covenant that most abrogate.

Outside what covenant? Mankind is under the new and better covenant of Grace. The old covenant of works of that covenant have been abrogated. Read the writings of Paul. Gentiles were never under the dictates of the old covenant laws. What makes you believe we now are?