Questions on Intercession of the Saints

[Ceallaigh]

God cannot be confined to a book, and is Himself the final authority rather than even His Word.

That's a handy disclaimer. But authority is presented in words. The Nicene Creed is words. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is words. So the matter is, whose words carry the most authority.

The two I mentioned followed an Arab theologian, who taught the Quran was the authority, and became great advocates of Sola Scriptura. I know it's not going to be accepted by those who promote Sola Scriptura, thus the word "apparently."

It's not going to be accepted by anyone who goes by evidence rather than hearsay. Personally I'm not an adhearent to sola scriptura. But I do believe the words of God, what He said to the Prophets etc, and what Jesus said, and what the Apostles said, have the greatest authority of all the words spoken to and by the Church of Christ.

Priests today are of the order of Melchizedek. Recall Melchizedek offered mere bread and wine. Our Lord offers His Body and His Blood under the outward appearance of bread and wine. Priests under the New Covenant, the Covenant which is the Body and Blood of Our Lord, are priests of the order of Melchizedek. The new fulfills the old.

Psalm 110:4
4 The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind,
“You are a priest for ever
after the order of Melchiz′edek.” RSVCE

Which is known of and established through the Word of God.

 

[David Lamb]

My believe as well. A direct relationship has been established when our Lord Jesus fulfilled His mission to redeem us unto Himself. No longer there is a need to sacrifice or intercession by the temple priest. Our Lord Jesus is all that in one.

However I'm just trying to understand the concept of intercession of the saints. What are the core values and basis in Scriptures.

Yes, there is no biblical warrant for praying to saints. Indeed, the very use of the word "saints" in the bible is different to the way it seems to be used in this thread. In the bible, "saints" was just another term for "Christians". Nowhere in the bible do we see anybody referred to as "Saint So-and-so". We do see headings of bible books in some English translations, such as "The Gospel According to St. Luke", but such headings are not part of the divinely-inspired scriptures.

 

[jas3]

Indeed, the very use of the word "saints" in the bible is different to the way it seems to be used in this thread. In the bible, "saints" was just another term for "Christians".

You are confusing canonized saints with saints in general. Anyone who is a true Christian, which implies that he being sanctified or made holy (sanctus), can be called a saint, but most Christians have enough humility not to describe themselves as holy while on Earth. Those in Heaven are undoubtedly fully sanctified, which is why the most common usage of "saint" today is in reference to those who are in Heaven.

 

[jas3]

I would disagree the Roman Catholic Church is a Denomination and is categorized as so.

The source is the two-volume World Christian Encyclopedia (Barrett, Kurian, and Johnson; Oxford University Press).

World Christianity consists of 6 major ecclesiastico-cultural blocs, divided into 300 major ecclesiastical traditions, composed [sic] of over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 countries (Vol. I, p. 16).



The WCE then goes on to break down “world Christianity” into the following broad categories:

• Independents: 22,000 denominations
• Protestants: 9000 denominations
• Marginals: 1600 denominations
• Orthodox: 781 denominations
• Catholics: 242 denominations
• Anglicans: 168 denominations

This is why the "Protestants have 33,000 denominations" line is going away in higher level apologetics, because there is increasing awareness that the figure comes from this source (and is not even correctly cited, because as the quoted portion says, the 33,000 figure represents all of Christianity). There is a good breakdown of this source here:

We Need to Stop Saying That There Are 33,000 Protestant Denominations

Recently someone sent me a link with the note, “Here’s something for you to refute.” Somehow along the way I have become Mr. Refutation. I can’t say how t...

www.ncregister.com

In particular, with regard to Catholicism,

And then the WCE somehow comes up with 242 Catholic denominations. That should be a big glaring red flag that it has been a bit — how shall we say? — free and loose with the word “denomination.”

In fact, if you check the breakdown of these 242 supposed denominations, here is what you will find: Latin Rite Catholics, Byzantine Rite Catholics, Melkites, Copts and Maronites. That is to say, the WCE classifies different rites as though they are different denominations, in spite of the fact that all of them are in union with Rome.

Other serious issues with the WCE is that it counts ecclesially-united Christians in different countries as different denominations, which is probably why the Orthodox number is so high, and that the WCE counts various non-Christian sects like Mormons and Buddhist syncretists as "Independent." Every episcopus vagans (bishop who goes off and does his own thing) counts as another "denomination" for the WCE.

Needless to say, this is not a source anyone should be taking seriously.

 

[David Lamb]

You are confusing canonized saints with saints in general. Anyone who is a true Christian, which implies that he being sanctified or made holy (sanctus), can be called a saint, but most Christians have enough humility not to describe themselves as holy while on Earth. Those in Heaven are undoubtedly fully sanctified, which is why the most common usage of "saint" today is in reference to those who are in Heaven.

Rather than confusing canonized saints with saints in general, my meaning was that the idea of canonized saints is not found in the bible, where the word "saint" is applied to all Christians. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

 

[Valletta]

Yes, there is no biblical warrant for praying to saints. Indeed, the very use of the word "saints" in the bible is different to the way it seems to be used in this thread. In the bible, "saints" was just another term for "Christians". Nowhere in the bible do we see anybody referred to as "Saint So-and-so". We do see headings of bible books in some English translations, such as "The Gospel According to St. Luke", but such headings are not part of the divinely-inspired scriptures.

The Bible tells us we are to pray for one another. The Church is both on Earth and in Heaven, and we ask those on Earth and those in Heaven to pray for us. The oldest formalized prayer in this regard is Psalm 103, where we address the angels in prayer. The prayers of the saints are mentioned in Revelation.

 

[rachelrising]

I am a non demontional Christian and I don't pray to Saints myself, but do know they are Holy. I was schooled in Catholic schools so became very familiar with Catholicism growing up. I looked at this question myself a few days ago and found this. The New Testament at times will use the word Saints to mean all believers, like when it mentions we will be judged by the Saints but the below appears to infer differently.
.......
The book of Revelation shows the saints worshipping God, singing hymns, playing instruments, making requests to Christ to avenge their martyrdom, and offering prayers for the saints on earth (Rev. 4:10, 5:8, 6:9-11).

The Bible Supports Praying to the Saints

Most "Bible-believing" Christians object to the Catholic practice of praying to the saints. Here is how to respond to the most common objections.

www.catholic.com

 

[IceJad]

You are confusing canonized saints with saints in general. Anyone who is a true Christian, which implies that he being sanctified or made holy (sanctus), can be called a saint, but most Christians have enough humility not to describe themselves as holy while on Earth. Those in Heaven are undoubtedly fully sanctified, which is why the most common usage of "saint" today is in reference to those who are in Heaven.

To be fair the practise of canonizing saints is what causes a lot of the confusion. Because during the days of the apostles' ministries all believers are called to be saints. There is no need for a prove of miracle and a recorded righteous life. The special designation of saint in the more contemporary time implicitly gives the impression of specially holy individuals.

Ephesians 2:19
Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

Like how the ancient Israelites view prophets. When people come in the name of God proclaiming His message, the Israelites will call them prophets. In essence holy individuals so righteous that God chose them as herald. In the same manner when we exalt an individual with the title of saint we implicitly make the person holier and greater than others or at lease more unique.

To me there shouldn't be a need to canonized any saints for all believers in Christs are saints by virtue of faith.

 

[David Lamb]

The Bible tells us we are to pray for one another. The Church is both on Earth and in Heaven, and we ask those on Earth and those in Heaven to pray for us. The oldest formalized prayer in this regard is Psalm 103, where we address the angels in prayer. The prayers of the saints are mentioned in Revelation.

True, the bible does tell Christians to pray for each other, and that the saints in heaven pray, but nowhere are Christians told to pray to other Christians, whether on earth or in heaven. If you take Psalm 103 as containing a prayer to angels, then presumably you also believe that it encourages us to pray to what the psalmist calls "all God's works":

“20 Bless the LORD, you His angels, Who excel in strength, who do His word, Heeding the voice of His word. 21 Bless the LORD, all [you] His hosts, [You] ministers of His, who do His pleasure. 22 Bless the LORD, all His works, In all places of His dominion. Bless the LORD, O my soul!” (Ps 103:20-22 NKJV)

Indeed, we also have the psalmist saying:

“1 ¶ Praise the LORD! Praise the LORD from the heavens; Praise Him in the heights! 2 Praise Him, all His angels; Praise Him, all His hosts! 3 Praise Him, sun and moon; Praise Him, all you stars of light! 4 Praise Him, you heavens of heavens, And you waters above the heavens! 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD, For He commanded and they were created. 6 He also established them forever and ever; He made a decree which shall not pass away. 7 ¶ Praise the LORD from the earth, You great sea creatures and all the depths; 8 Fire and hail, snow and clouds; Stormy wind, fulfilling His word; 9 Mountains and all hills; Fruitful trees and all cedars; 10 Beasts and all cattle; Creeping things and flying fowl; 11 Kings of the earth and all peoples; Princes and all judges of the earth; 12 Both young men and maidens; Old men and children. 13 Let them praise the name of the LORD, For His name alone is exalted; His glory [is] above the earth and heaven. 14 And He has exalted the horn of His people, The praise of all His saints — Of the children of Israel, A people near to Him. Praise the LORD!” (Ps 148:1-14 NKJV)

Was the psalmist addressing prayer to such things as the sun, moon, stars, wind, mountains, trees, etc? Surely not

 

[Valletta]

True, the bible does tell Christians to pray for each other, and that the saints in heaven pray, but nowhere are Christians told to pray to other Christians, whether on earth or in heaven. If you take Psalm 103 as containing a prayer to angels, then presumably you also believe that it encourages us to pray to what the psalmist calls "all God's works":

“20 Bless the LORD, you His angels, Who excel in strength, who do His word, Heeding the voice of His word. 21 Bless the LORD, all [you] His hosts, [You] ministers of His, who do His pleasure. 22 Bless the LORD, all His works, In all places of His dominion. Bless the LORD, O my soul!” (Ps 103:20-22 NKJV)

We ask other Christians to pray for us, we do that by communicating to them whether they are on Earth or in Heaven. It's not called prayer when we ask someone on Earth to pray for us, but it is called prayer when we communicate TO the saints. I'm don't want to quibble about semantics, Catholics have been accused of worshiping the saints if we pray TO them. The worship we give to God is for God alone, asking your friend or a saint to pray for you is not worship. David did not have a problem communicating to the angels through prayer, nor did all of the Jews who came after Him and prayed the Psalms, including Jesus. For Catholics we are used to praying portions of various Psalms at mass and I have not had a problem praying any Psalms.

 

[jas3]

Rather than confusing canonized saints with saints in general, my meaning was that the idea of canonized saints is not found in the bible, where the word "saint" is applied to all Christians.

I understand that, but the intercession of saints pertains to all saints, not just canonized saints. Canonized saints are a subset of all of the saints. So an argument against the canonization of saints is not an argument against the intercession of saints; even if there were no canonized saints, all saints could still intercede for us.

 

[Dan Perez]

I'm a Lutheran but rather consider myself a non-denominational Christian. So I don't hold any denominational teachings strictly. But there is one aspect of praying to the saints for intercession that baffles me. I know Catholics say that asking the saints for intercession is similar to requesting a friend to pray for you. Saints are alive in paradise and can hear requests from earth therefore it is acceptable to request for intercession.

Here are a few things I just can't comprehend and hope that someone here can better clarify.

1. We know for certain people who are saints like the disciples therefore invoking them are pretty much "safe" in prayers, but how sure are you when you invoke later, less well known and regional saints in prayer? Wouldn't it be presumptive about their afterlife status. I don't want to sound mean but how sure that these saints are even in paradise?

2. If we work on the basis that everyone in paradise is alive and in communion, why not just invoke relatives or friends who had passed away to intercede since they know us better? Or must intercession be only permissible by saints not regular believers? If only saints can intercede then wouldn't asking an earthly family member or friend to pray invalid?

1 Cor 1:2 Paul says that they are CALLED SAINTS .

And if all believers are saved by grace , Eph 2:8 they are also SAINTS in the BODY of Christ .

And 1 Tim 2:5 reads , For there is one God and ONE MEDIATOR of God and man , the man Christ Jesus .

ONLY people saved by GRACE are in the third HEAVEN , called PARIDISE in 2 Cor 12:1-4 .

And in John 3:13 and no man has ascended up to heaven BUT // ME . is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE and the means that no one has EVER ASCENDED to heaven EVER ,and the includes MARY , the mother of Jesus .

dan p

 

[David Lamb]

I understand that, but the intercession of saints pertains to all saints, not just canonized saints. Canonized saints are a subset of all of the saints. So an argument against the canonization of saints is not an argument against the intercession of saints; even if there were no canonized saints, all saints could still intercede for us.

But where in the bible do you find any distinct kind of saint referred to as "canonised"? Also, this thread was originally about the practice of praying to saints, not asking them to pray for us. To quote the original post: "But there is one aspect of praying to the saints for intercession that baffles me." (emphasis mine.)

 

[Ceallaigh]

The Bible tells us we are to pray for one another. The Church is both on Earth and in Heaven, and we ask those on Earth and those in Heaven to pray for us. The oldest formalized prayer in this regard is Psalm 103, where we address the angels in prayer. The prayers of the saints are mentioned in Revelation.

Jesus gave us several instructions regarding prayer. When we follow the directions of Christ on how to pray, we never end up praying to anyone whosoever other than God the Father. Why go outside of the numerous explicit instructions of Jesus Christ Himself?

James 5:16 quite clearly says pray FOR each other rather than TO each other. When we pray for each other we pray to the Father for others the way Jesus did.

And except for a brief little salutation to the angels in Psalm 103:20 all of the hundreds of recorded prayers in the Bible are to God and no one else but God.

 

[Ceallaigh]

There's absolutely no indication whatsoever that we're supposed to make icons of other Christians and kiss them and pray to them.

 

[concretecamper]

There's absolutely no indication whatsoever that we're supposed to make icons of other Christians and kiss them and pray to them.

Next time you look at a picture of a loved one and feel a rush of emotion, remember that you are committing idolatry

 

[Ceallaigh]

Next time you look at a picture of a loved one and feel a rush of emotion, remember that you are committing idolatry

That comes naturally. Kissing and praying to icons is something that is taught and is compulsory. But I'm not necessarily speaking against it and calling it idolatry. I'm just stating facts.

 

[Valletta]

That comes naturally. Kissing and praying to icons is something that is taught and is compulsory. But I'm not necessarily speaking against it and calling it idolatry. I'm just stating facts.

The Bible is not an instruction manual. It is a varied collection of God-breathed texts. Jesus said nothing about compiling the New Testament, that was a decision made by the Catholic Church by the authority Jesus gave to His Church. When the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible, in a process that spanned centuries, never was it intended to be a rule book nor was authority ceded to the Bible. Had the Church intended such it would have said so in a preface within the Bible. Many Catholic and Protestant churches put a cross on top of their Church buildings, that's not in the Bible. Do you think all of we Christians are sinning in doing so? Furthermore, I have never heard that kissing icons and praying to icons is compulsory in any religion. A common practice by Catholics, for example, is to kiss or touch a cross in church on Good Friday. This is showing reverence and awe for what Jesus did, not for that particular piece of wood. Americans have memorials such as the Lincoln Memorial in Washington. There is a statue of Lincoln where one can pause and reflect upon what Lincoln did. There is nothing wrong in doing so.

 

[Valletta]

But where in the bible do you find any distinct kind of saint referred to as "canonised"? Also, this thread was originally about the practice of praying to saints, not asking them to pray for us. To quote the original post: "But there is one aspect of praying to the saints for intercession that baffles me." (emphasis mine.)

Where in the Bible does it say that a canon must be developed and used that contains the exact of the books of the Bible? When the term "praying to a saint" is used it means asking that saint pray for us. It is just like asking a person on Earth to pray for us. We must address them to do so, here on earth we much use our voice and that person must be in hearing range, with saints we address the saint in prayer silently or vocally.

 

[Ceallaigh]

The Bible is not an instruction manual.

Except for the fact that it's full of instructions. Most importantly for Christians, the instructions given by Christ. On how to pray for example.

It is a varied collection of God-breathed texts. Jesus said nothing about compiling the New Testament, that was a decision made by the Catholic Church by the authority Jesus gave to His Church. When the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible, in a process that spanned centuries, never was it intended to be a rule book nor was authority ceded to the Bible. Had the Church intended such it would have said so in a preface within the Bible. Many Catholic and Protestant churches put a cross on top of their Church buildings, that's not in the Bible. Do you think all of we Christians are sinning in doing so? Furthermore, I have never heard that kissing icons and praying to icons is compulsory in any religion. A common practice by Catholics, for example, is to kiss or touch a cross in church on Good Friday. This is showing reverence and awe for what Jesus did, not for that particular piece of wood. Americans have memorials such as the Lincoln Memorial in Washington. There is a statue of Lincoln where one can pause and reflect upon what Lincoln did. There is nothing wrong in doing so.

You're right the Bible doesn't say anything about putting crosses on top of churches. That's a man-made tradition. Man-made tradition doesn't necessarily equate to sinning. But it should in honesty be acknowledged as being man-made tradition.

And why do you make a speech like this after using Psalm 103:20 and James 5:16 as instruction? You can't have it both ways, saying the Bible isn't and instruction manual after using it as an instruction manual.

As far as compulsory goes: All who are not disposed to venerate the icons of Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mary, the angels or saints are excommunicated

If anyone then does not venerate the icon of Christ, the saviour, let him not see his face when he comes in his father’s glory to be glorified and to glorify his saints’, but let him be cut off from his communion and splendour; similarly the image of Mary, his immaculate mother and mother of God, we also paint the icons of the holy angels just as divine scripture depicts them in words; we also honour and venerate those of the highly renowned apostles, prophets, martyrs and holy men as well as those of all the saints. Let those who are not so disposed be anathema from the Father, the Son and the holy Spirit. Fourth Council of Constantinople : 869-870 AD