Mary was a good person and had a sinful nature like all of us.

[Valletta]

Granted, that is conjecture but based on the natural reading that Jesus had siblings.

Someone unfamiliar with Koine Greek and unfamiliar with the early Church teaching that Mary had no other children could make such a mistake.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Someone unfamiliar with Koine Greek and unfamiliar with the early Church teaching that Mary had no other children could make such a mistake.

I disagree on the Greek and the early church were not all in agreement on the issue but I go by the Scriptures, not other teachings. That said, this particular issue is not of great concern to me. It does not change my faith in any way if Mary did not have other children.

 

[JulieB67]

Growing into a young man Christ confides His desires, successes, and failures with His mother

And yet Mary left Jerusalem after Passover not knowing he wasn't with the group when he was 12 years old. They went an entire days journey before realizing. If Christ was an only child and so in sync with his mother and vice versa surely one would question why she would not notice his absence and question why Christ did not mention it if she was to be included in such important matters as him staying behind in the temple -about his Father's business? Common sense here tells us that this on her part is possibly a type of home alone situation where her other younger children probably had her attention etc. And with him being 12 she wasn't too worried about him. But again I doubt being if he was an only child and completely in sync as you are suggesting she would have not failed to have missed him -even at 12.

Luke 2:48 "And when they saw Him, they were amazed: and His mother said unto Him, "Son, why hast Thou thus dealt with us? behold, Thy father and I have sought Thee sorrowing."

Luke 2:49 "And He said unto them, "How is it that ye sought Me? wist ye not that I must be about My Father's business?"

Luke 2:50 "And they understood not the saying which He spake unto them."

Mary does not even understand yet. Even though we know she keeps such sayings within her heart and will understand later.

The simplest explanation is the one that requires the least addition to the text.

One would have to add many additions to the text to believe she was in immaculate virgin for all time. And it's a hard reach to believe that his brothers and sisters with Mary are step children, cousins, spiritual brothers and sisters. There was absolutely no reason for Mary and Joseph not to have other children.

 

[RDKirk]

And yet Mary left Jerusalem after Passover not knowing he wasn't with the group when he was 12 years old. They went an entire days journey before realizing. If Christ was an only child and so in sync with his Mother and vice versa surely one would question why she would not notice his absence and question why Christ did not mention it if she was to be included in such important matters as him staying behind in the temple -about his Father's business. Common sense here tells us that this on her part is possibly a type of home alone situation where her other younger children probably had her attention etc.

Even if Jesus were an only child, he was still old enough to have been expected to be traveling with older boys and men, not hanging on his mother's hem. He would have been "about his father's business" in the company of the men even if his natural father were Joseph.

So, that doesn't provide any evidence for or against his being an only child or the eldest child of Mary.

I look with more question about a couple of other instances in which the brothers of Jesus treated him with contempt that would never have been shown the eldest son of the family. Also, the fact that Jesus entrusted the care of his mother to John suggests Mary had no other sons.

I personally lean toward Mary being a second wife to Joseph, and Joseph having children from an earlier marriage.

 

[Valletta]

I disagree on the Greek and the early church were not all in agreement on the issue but I go by the Scriptures, not other teachings. That said, this particular issue is not of great concern to me. It does not change my faith in any way if Mary did not have other children.

I took example after example of the Catholics you thought (and you provided the names) that did not believe in the Real Presence and showed they actually did. It is understandable, if you don't know that a cousin could be called a "brother" in Koine Greek, and you don't know the early Christian understanding, in English the most common usage of "brother" is for a full or half sibling. Why you would insist that your personal interpretation must be right, in contrast to the early Christians, when I don't think you believe it has anything to do with your salvation is another question.

 

[Valletta]

There was absolutely no reason for Mary and Joseph not to have other children.

The God so chose is good enough for me. God's ways are far above our ways.

 

[o_mlly]

Granted, that is conjecture but based on the natural reading that Jesus had siblings.

This passage certainly means or at least strongly suggests that Jesus had no siblings and Mary no other children.

John 19:​

26When Jesus saw his mother* and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.” ​

27Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.

 

[JulieB67]

Even if Jesus were an only child, he was still old enough to have been expected to be traveling with older boys and men, not hanging on his mother's hem. He would have been "about his father's business" in the company of the men even if his natural father were Joseph.

I was replying to a post that seems to imply they are completely tied to one another and if that's the case, I doubt she would have missed him.

Also, the fact that Jesus entrusted the care of his mother to John suggests Mary had no other sons.

I would think Christ would have been more concerned with her spiritual care. We know Mary was part of the church. And we know Christ never put any extra importance over his physical family over the spiritual family. She was losing a son but gaining one in the process, one that Christ loved. I believe James and Jude were part of the church as well but at this time that might not have been the case.

I personally lean toward Mary being a second wife to Joseph, and Joseph having children from an earlier marriage.

Again, I see no reason that they did not have other children. And in Joseph's lineage, no other sons are listed before Christ. This would have been a perfect time to mention an earlier wife and children.

Matthew 1:25 "And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn Son: and he called His name JESUS."

Everything I've read about Joseph implies he went into this expecting a normal marriage. And this verse certainly implies that was the case after Christ was born. If otherwise he would not have been questioning things when Mary first became pregnant and Gabriel had to tell him not to fear to take her unto him.


And quotes like this are proof that these are unbiblical beliefs brought on by man, not scripture.

And hence the titles which we are accustomed to give her. He is the Wisdom of God, she therefore is the Seat of Wisdom; His Presence is Heaven, she therefore is the Gate of Heaven; He is infinite Mercy, she then is the Mother of Mercy.

 

[Valletta]

I was replying to a post that seems to imply they are completely tied to one another and if that's the case, I doubt she would have missed him.


I would think Christ would have been more concerned with her spiritual care. We know Mary was part of the church. And we know Christ never put any extra importance over his physical family over the spiritual family. She was losing a son but gaining one in the process

You ideas go against the understanding of the early Christians, passed down through the Apostles. Additionally, there is:

Luke 1:34 “How shall this be, seeing I do not know man.”

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

I took example after example of the Catholics you thought (and you provided the names) that did not believe in the Real Presence and showed they actually did. It is understandable, if you don't know that a cousin could be called a "brother" in Koine Greek, and you don't know the early Christian understanding, in English the most common usage of "brother" is for a full or half sibling. Why you would insist that your personal interpretation must be right, in contrast to the early Christians, when I don't think you believe it has anything to do with your salvation is another question.

I am well aware of the term "brother" in Koine Greek. I realize it can mean literal brother, cousin, etc. The word itself does not prove, one way or the other, if the men in question were literal half-brothers or cousins. I believe many of the early church fathers were infected by a cultish belief in the moral superiority of virgins and thus believed Mary must have remained a virgin. The passage of time may allow us to examine the Scriptures with less bias.

However, as I have stated before, it is not critical to me one way or the other. If Mary remained a virgin, that is not a problem for me. I think she and Joseph had other children but it is not a point of doctrine I find essential. Even if Mary remained a virgin, it does not mean she was immaculately conceived or led a sinless life. These are all separate doctrines.

If you want an in-depth analysis, read this: Notes on Revelation: The Brethren of the Lord--J.B. Lightfoot. The author was Anglican and I will tell you that he believes they were Joseph's children from a previous marriage (well that is what he sees as most likely). I am not passing an opinion on his work but he clearly put a lot of time and research into it. It is an insight into the different theories (he presents 3) that have been presented historically. It's a slow read due to all the detail but not long. After reading it, my impression is that the question of names in these NT accounts is confusing at best. We have multiple men and women with the same names. There are clues as to whether some refer to the same person or a different person by the same name. It does lend itself to a bit of conjecture. I can certainly see why different opinions have been put forth. Some, I suspect, were driven by a desire to reach a predetermined conclusion but you can judge that for yourself. Again, I am not saying this is "the definitive work" on the subject. Just an interesting collection of data and well worth reading.

I will save our discussion of the Real Presence for another post when I get time

 

[Valletta]

I am well aware of the term "brother" in Koine Greek. I realize it can mean literal brother, cousin, etc. The word itself does not prove, one way or the other, if the men in question were literal half-brothers or cousins. I believe many of the early church fathers were infected by a cultish belief in the moral superiority of virgins and thus believed Mary must have remained a virgin.

You are entitled to your beliefs.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

You are entitled to your beliefs.

Of course. As are you.

 

[JoeT]

He is the Wisdom of God, she therefore is the Seat of Wisdom; His Presence is Heaven, she therefore is the Gate of Heaven; He is infinite Mercy, she then is the Mother of Mercy. She is the Mother of "fair love and fear, and knowledge and holy hope"; is it wonderful then that she has left behind her in the Church below "an odor like cinnamon and balm, and sweetness like to choice myrrh"? [John Henry Newman, On the Fitness of the Glories of Mary, discourse 18]

And quotes like this are proof that these are unbiblical beliefs brought on by man, not scripture.

Bless your poor little heart. Have we trouble identifying your God and His spouse, Mary? Let's see if we can pull a few pea picking gems from Scripture as "proof".

As you might recall we say God is all powerful, present everywhere in every time, and all knowledgeable; omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. God is the very essence of Eternity. Recall too that eternity has neither beginning nor end, time then is contained within eternity, from the beginning to end of time. Only things in the cosmos have beginnings and ends. All knowledge is contained within Eternity as well.

The son of a human person is the expressed as the image of his father; the child is ‘begotten’ of the father. Jesus Christ is said to be the Son of God, One Divine Person is begotten in Eternity then in the flesh. As God is all knowledge, then the expressed image of all knowledge is Wisdom, not born or begotten rather having existed eternally with an Eternal Knowledge, much the same way when man uses his knowledge it produces wisdom.

Christ did take on the form of humanity as Jesus, in the mysteries of the Incarnation. And, Christ is the expressed image of God in being the Wisdom of God. [Hebrews 1:3] We see it in the Greek, “Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.”(At the beginning of time the Logos already was; and God had the Logos abiding with him, and the Word was God.) [John 1:1], in the same way a man’s wisdom abides in himself. And continuing, in John the Greek: “καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο,” (And the Logos became flesh) [John 1:14]. John says that the ‘Logos’ always existed and was God and furthermore the ‘Logos’ became man. Truth exists, the Incarnation happened. To be absolutely clear, John is not saying God is the audible, that is “the word”, as an expression of himself.

Instead let’s look again at the Powerful Eternity (God) the Logos as the Wisdom of God, ever present, all powerful. Divine Wisdom exists with God in all eternity. Christ is not ‘made or created’ by God, rather the Same Substance of God, all of Divine Eternity, the expressed image of God. Solomon described Wisdom as follows:

For in her [that which is Wisdom] is the spirit of understanding: holy, one, manifold, subtile, eloquent, active, undefiled, sure, sweet, loving that which is good, quick, which nothing hindereth, beneficent, Gentle, kind, steadfast, assured, secure, having all power, overseeing all things, and containing all spirits, intelligible, pure, subtile. For wisdom is more active than all active things: and reacheth everywhere by reason of her purity. For she [Wisdom] is a vapour of the power of God, and a certain pure emanation of the glory of the almighty God: and therefore no defiled thing cometh into her.

For she is the brightness of eternal light, and the unspotted mirror of God' s majesty, and the image of his goodness. And being but one, she can do all things: and remaining in herself the same, she reneweth all things, and through nations conveyeth herself into holy souls, she maketh the friends of God and prophets. For God loveth none but him that dwelleth with wisdom. For she is more beautiful than the sun, and above all the order of the stars: being compared with the light, she is found before it. For after this cometh night, but no evil can overcome wisdom. [Wisdom 7:22 sqq.]​

In Proverbs we find a description of the coming Anointed One who ‘became’ man. Wisdom herself tells us who the man is through whom all things were made in Proverbs 8.

The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made anything from the beginning. I was set up from eternity, and of old before the earth was made. The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived, neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out: The mountains with their huge bulk had not as yet been established: before the hills I was brought forth:

He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers, nor the poles of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was present: when with a certain law and compass he enclosed the depths: When he established the sky above, and poised the fountains of waters: When he compassed the sea with its bounds, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their limits: when be balanced the foundations of the earth; I was with him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times [Proverbs 8:22 sqq.]​

The Wisdom of God comes forth from God in the likeness of the intellect that generates Wisdom in God. It is God who in all things expresses the image of Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. The expressed image of a human is his son; likewise, "The figure of His substance" is the expressed image of God the Father who is His Son.

In these days hath spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high. [Hebrews 1:2-3]​

God’s reflective act of understanding the existence of His Divine eternity brings forth the concept of understanding Eternity in the form of wisdom. Thus the likeness of Eternity is the expression begotten as Wisdom. "And the 'Logos' [the mental concept of Word, i.e. Wisdom - not the audible or written word, rhema] was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." [John 1:14].

We find therefore, the Logos takes flesh is the begotten Son of God. One Divine Person with Divine nature and a human nature uniquely and inseparably joined in one Holy hypostasis (the underlying reality of what a thing or person is) without mixing mingling or confusion; “God from God, Light from Light.” From the Father and the Son comes the Holy Spirit. Three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit yet of One Substance, Eternity. The Trinity then can be expressed as Eternity expressed in three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit of the same essence.

Thus as the Mercy Seat is atop the Ark of the covenant, so to is the Logos within the seat of Wisdom, a type of Ark becoming the Seat of Wisdom.

JoeT

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Bless your poor little heart. Have we trouble identifying your God and His spouse, Mary? Let's see if we can pull a few pea picking gems from Scripture as "proof".

As you might recall we say God is all powerful, present everywhere in every time, and all knowledgeable; omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. God is the very essence of Eternity. Recall too that eternity has neither beginning nor end, time then is contained within eternity, from the beginning to end of time. Only things in the cosmos have beginnings and ends. All knowledge is contained within Eternity as well.

The son of a human person is the expressed as the image of his father; the child is ‘begotten’ of the father. Jesus Christ is said to be the Son of God, One Divine Person is begotten in Eternity then in the flesh. As God is all knowledge, then the expressed image of all knowledge is Wisdom, not born or begotten rather having existed eternally with an Eternal Knowledge, much the same way when man uses his knowledge it produces wisdom.

Christ did take on the form of humanity as Jesus, in the mysteries of the Incarnation. And, Christ is the expressed image of God in being the Wisdom of God. [Hebrews 1:3] We see it in the Greek, “Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.”(At the beginning of time the Logos already was; and God had the Logos abiding with him, and the Word was God.) [John 1:1], in the same way a man’s wisdom abides in himself. And continuing, in John the Greek: “καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο,” (And the Logos became flesh) [John 1:14]. John says that the ‘Logos’ always existed and was God and furthermore the ‘Logos’ became man. Truth exists, the Incarnation happened. To be absolutely clear, John is not saying God is the audible, that is “the word”, as an expression of himself.

Instead let’s look again at the Powerful Eternity (God) the Logos as the Wisdom of God, ever present, all powerful. Divine Wisdom exists with God in all eternity. Christ is not ‘made or created’ by God, rather the Same Substance of God, all of Divine Eternity, the expressed image of God. Solomon described Wisdom as follows:

For in her [that which is Wisdom] is the spirit of understanding: holy, one, manifold, subtile, eloquent, active, undefiled, sure, sweet, loving that which is good, quick, which nothing hindereth, beneficent, Gentle, kind, steadfast, assured, secure, having all power, overseeing all things, and containing all spirits, intelligible, pure, subtile. For wisdom is more active than all active things: and reacheth everywhere by reason of her purity. For she [Wisdom] is a vapour of the power of God, and a certain pure emanation of the glory of the almighty God: and therefore no defiled thing cometh into her.​

​

For she is the brightness of eternal light, and the unspotted mirror of God' s majesty, and the image of his goodness. And being but one, she can do all things: and remaining in herself the same, she reneweth all things, and through nations conveyeth herself into holy souls, she maketh the friends of God and prophets. For God loveth none but him that dwelleth with wisdom. For she is more beautiful than the sun, and above all the order of the stars: being compared with the light, she is found before it. For after this cometh night, but no evil can overcome wisdom. [Wisdom 7:22 sqq.]​

In Proverbs we find a description of the coming Anointed One who ‘became’ man. Wisdom herself tells us who the man is through whom all things were made in Proverbs 8.

The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made anything from the beginning. I was set up from eternity, and of old before the earth was made. The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived, neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out: The mountains with their huge bulk had not as yet been established: before the hills I was brought forth:​

​

He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers, nor the poles of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was present: when with a certain law and compass he enclosed the depths: When he established the sky above, and poised the fountains of waters: When he compassed the sea with its bounds, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their limits: when be balanced the foundations of the earth; I was with him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times [Proverbs 8:22 sqq.]​

The Wisdom of God comes forth from God in the likeness of the intellect that generates Wisdom in God. It is God who in all things expresses the image of Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. The expressed image of a human is his son; likewise, "The figure of His substance" is the expressed image of God the Father who is His Son.

In these days hath spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high. [Hebrews 1:2-3]​

God’s reflective act of understanding the existence of His Divine eternity brings forth the concept of understanding Eternity in the form of wisdom. Thus the likeness of Eternity is the expression begotten as Wisdom. "And the 'Logos' [the mental concept of Word, i.e. Wisdom - not the audible or written word, rhema] was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." [John 1:14].

We find therefore, the Logos takes flesh is the begotten Son of God. One Divine Person with Divine nature and a human nature uniquely and inseparably joined in one Holy hypostasis (the underlying reality of what a thing or person is) without mixing mingling or confusion; “God from God, Light from Light.” From the Father and the Son comes the Holy Spirit. Three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit yet of One Substance, Eternity. The Trinity then can be expressed as Eternity expressed in three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit of the same essence.

Thus as the Mercy Seat is atop the Ark of the covenant, so to is the Logos within the seat of Wisdom, a type of Ark becoming the Seat of Wisdom.

While I don't recognize the Book of Wisdom as being inspired, I was tracking up until your last sentence. This whole "wisdom approach" to God is very Catholic (maybe Orthodox, I don't know). I do not see the parallel and your argument does nothing for me. Perhaps others agree with you. I cannot say. I don't see Mary as any kind of Ark...

JoeT

 

[JulieB67]

Bless your poor little heart. Have we trouble identifying your God and His spouse, Mary? Let's see if we can pull a few pea picking gems from Scripture as "proof".

As you might recall we say God is all powerful, present everywhere in every time, and all knowledgeable; omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. God is the very essence of Eternity. Recall too that eternity has neither beginning nor end, time then is contained within eternity, from the beginning to end of time. Only things in the cosmos have beginnings and ends. All knowledge is contained within Eternity as well.

The son of a human person is the expressed as the image of his father; the child is ‘begotten’ of the father. Jesus Christ is said to be the Son of God, One Divine Person is begotten in Eternity then in the flesh. As God is all knowledge, then the expressed image of all knowledge is Wisdom, not born or begotten rather having existed eternally with an Eternal Knowledge, much the same way when man uses his knowledge it produces wisdom.

Christ did take on the form of humanity as Jesus, in the mysteries of the Incarnation. And, Christ is the expressed image of God in being the Wisdom of God. [Hebrews 1:3] We see it in the Greek, “Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.”(At the beginning of time the Logos already was; and God had the Logos abiding with him, and the Word was God.) [John 1:1], in the same way a man’s wisdom abides in himself. And continuing, in John the Greek: “καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο,” (And the Logos became flesh) [John 1:14]. John says that the ‘Logos’ always existed and was God and furthermore the ‘Logos’ became man. Truth exists, the Incarnation happened. To be absolutely clear, John is not saying God is the audible, that is “the word”, as an expression of himself.

Instead let’s look again at the Powerful Eternity (God) the Logos as the Wisdom of God, ever present, all powerful. Divine Wisdom exists with God in all eternity. Christ is not ‘made or created’ by God, rather the Same Substance of God, all of Divine Eternity, the expressed image of God. Solomon described Wisdom as follows:

For in her [that which is Wisdom] is the spirit of understanding: holy, one, manifold, subtile, eloquent, active, undefiled, sure, sweet, loving that which is good, quick, which nothing hindereth, beneficent, Gentle, kind, steadfast, assured, secure, having all power, overseeing all things, and containing all spirits, intelligible, pure, subtile. For wisdom is more active than all active things: and reacheth everywhere by reason of her purity. For she [Wisdom] is a vapour of the power of God, and a certain pure emanation of the glory of the almighty God: and therefore no defiled thing cometh into her.​

​

For she is the brightness of eternal light, and the unspotted mirror of God' s majesty, and the image of his goodness. And being but one, she can do all things: and remaining in herself the same, she reneweth all things, and through nations conveyeth herself into holy souls, she maketh the friends of God and prophets. For God loveth none but him that dwelleth with wisdom. For she is more beautiful than the sun, and above all the order of the stars: being compared with the light, she is found before it. For after this cometh night, but no evil can overcome wisdom. [Wisdom 7:22 sqq.]​

In Proverbs we find a description of the coming Anointed One who ‘became’ man. Wisdom herself tells us who the man is through whom all things were made in Proverbs 8.

The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made anything from the beginning. I was set up from eternity, and of old before the earth was made. The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived, neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out: The mountains with their huge bulk had not as yet been established: before the hills I was brought forth:​

​

He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers, nor the poles of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was present: when with a certain law and compass he enclosed the depths: When he established the sky above, and poised the fountains of waters: When he compassed the sea with its bounds, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their limits: when be balanced the foundations of the earth; I was with him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times [Proverbs 8:22 sqq.]​

The Wisdom of God comes forth from God in the likeness of the intellect that generates Wisdom in God. It is God who in all things expresses the image of Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. The expressed image of a human is his son; likewise, "The figure of His substance" is the expressed image of God the Father who is His Son.

In these days hath spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high. [Hebrews 1:2-3]​

God’s reflective act of understanding the existence of His Divine eternity brings forth the concept of understanding Eternity in the form of wisdom. Thus the likeness of Eternity is the expression begotten as Wisdom. "And the 'Logos' [the mental concept of Word, i.e. Wisdom - not the audible or written word, rhema] was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." [John 1:14].

We find therefore, the Logos takes flesh is the begotten Son of God. One Divine Person with Divine nature and a human nature uniquely and inseparably joined in one Holy hypostasis (the underlying reality of what a thing or person is) without mixing mingling or confusion; “God from God, Light from Light.” From the Father and the Son comes the Holy Spirit. Three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit yet of One Substance, Eternity. The Trinity then can be expressed as Eternity expressed in three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit of the same essence.

Thus as the Mercy Seat is atop the Ark of the covenant, so to is the Logos within the seat of Wisdom, a type of Ark becoming the Seat of Wisdom.

JoeT

None of this has anything to do with Mary. God's wisdom is separate from us and that includes Mary.
Of course the beginning of our wisdom for us is to revere him.
But again there is nothing in the scriptures that she is to be held up in the same fashion. There's nothing that states she is the seat of wisdom, the ark, and so on. And she's no more spouse to God than any one else who is considered the bride of Christ. And that is anyone that does the will of God. Man's tradition again make void the word of God.

We know she was highly favored among the women at the time and was blessed to have given birth to our Savior. But there is nothing else included in scriptures that pertains to the salvation process, who we pray to and most importantly who we worship and who is our mediator-nothing. Traditions shouldn't take precedence over what Christ, the prophets, disciples/apostles taught.

You and others believe differently because of your supposed sacred tradition. But those can't be pulled from scriptures. Especially from the gospels.

 

[Valletta]

None of this has anything to do with Mary. God's wisdom is separate from us and that includes Mary.
Of course the beginning of our wisdom for us is to revere him.
But again there is nothing in the scriptures that she is to be held up in the same fashion. There's nothing that states she is the seat of wisdom, the ark, and so on. And she's no more spouse to God than any one else who is considered the bride of Christ. And that is anyone that does the will of God. Man's tradition again make void the word of God.

We know she was highly favored among the women at the time and was blessed to have given birth to our Savior. But there is nothing else included in scriptures that pertains to the salvation process, who we pray to and most importantly who we worship and who is our mediator-nothing. Traditions shouldn't take precedence over what Christ, the prophets, disciples/apostles taught.

You and others believe differently because of your supposed sacred tradition. But those can't be pulled from scriptures. Especially from the gospels.

The New Testament came from Sacred Tradition, not the other way around. If you read Revelation, the Ark of the Covenant if first seen and the very next sight is of Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

The New Testament came from Sacred Tradition, not the other way around. If you read Revelation, the Ark of the Covenant if first seen and the very next sight is of Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant.

No, the NT came from the Apostles and disciples of Jesus, inspired by God. The church later recognized those books that were already being acknowledged as Scripture. Lists were being prepared long before there was an organized Catholic church.

The fact that a woman is mentioned in the next verse, does not necessarily tie that to the Ark seen in heaven. It is a change of subject and a new event. The writer is describing a scene in heaven. Chapter 11 sets the scene and chapter 12 captures the action. Nothing ties the appearance of the woman to the Ark seen in heaven. The mere fact that she is the next subject does not tie them together. The appearance of the woman is in addition to what was just described. Outside of the Catholic Church (not sure about the Orthodox faiths), most commentators believe the woman next mentioned represents the church, not Mary.

As an example,

The allusions to Israel before accord with this: compare Rev 11:19. “the temple of God”; “the ark of His testament.” The ark lost at the Babylonian captivity, and never since found, is seen in the “temple of God opened in heaven,” signifying that God now enters again into covenant with His ancient people. The woman cannot mean, literally, the virgin mother of Jesus, for she did not flee into the wilderness and stay there for 1260 days, while the dragon persecuted the remnant of her seed (Rev 12:13–17) [De Burgh]. The sun, moon, and twelve stars, are emblematical of Jacob, Leah, or else Rachel, and the twelve patriarchs, that is, the Jewish Church: secondarily, the Church universal, having under her feet, in due subordination, the ever changing moon, which shines with a borrowed light, emblem of the Jewish dispensation, which is now in a position of inferiority, though supporting the woman, and also of the changeful things of this world, and having on her head the crown of twelve stars, the twelve apostles, who, however, are related closely to Israel’s twelve tribes. The Church, in passing over into the Gentile world, is (1) persecuted; (2) then seduced, as heathenism begins to react on her.

Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown, Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible, vol. 2 (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 579.

As we all know, Revelation is very figurative. The fact that the woman gives birth to a son does not automatically make her Mary. Nor does this depiction, tie to the mention of the Ark.

 

[Valletta]

No, the NT came from the Apostles and disciples of Jesus, inspired by God. The church later recognized those books that were already being acknowledged as Scripture. Lists were being prepared long before there was an organized Catholic church.

The process of the Catholic Church choosing the 73 books of the Bible spanned centuries. In the early centuries the Gospels were widely accepted as readings at Catholic mass, but the mass readings from other books varied from region to region. The Catholic Church set out to determine what was God-breathed text and what was not. As I've stated before, there were a number of lists before the NT list of Saint Athanasius. The Catholic Church kept getting closer to the final list as time progressed., with Revelation being the last NT book decided upon. Saint Athanasius is credited with the first New Testament Biblical canon, his list is contained in his Thirty-Ninth Festal Letter of 367 A.D. This list was approved by Pope Damasus, and formally approved of by Councils at Hippo and Carthage in the late 300s. Pope Innocent I wrote a letter to the Bishop of Toulouse in 405 A.D. containing the list. The list was re-affirmed at Carthage in 419 A.D., by the Council of Florence 1442 A.D., and by the Council of Trent in 1546 A.D. All Bibles in Europe contained the same 73 books until Protestants dropped books from their version during the reformation.

The fact that a woman is mentioned in the next verse, does not necessarily tie that to the Ark seen in heaven. It is a change of subject and a new event. The writer is describing a scene in heaven. Chapter 11 sets the scene and chapter 12 captures the action. Nothing ties the appearance of the woman to the Ark seen in heaven. The mere fact that she is the next subject does not tie them together. The appearance of the woman is in addition to what was just described. Outside of the Catholic Church (not sure about the Orthodox faiths), most commentators believe the woman next mentioned represents the church, not Mary.

As an example,

The allusions to Israel before accord with this: compare Rev 11:19. “the temple of God”; “the ark of His testament.” The ark lost at the Babylonian captivity, and never since found, is seen in the “temple of God opened in heaven,” signifying that God now enters again into covenant with His ancient people. The woman cannot mean, literally, the virgin mother of Jesus, for she did not flee into the wilderness and stay there for 1260 days, while the dragon persecuted the remnant of her seed (Rev 12:13–17) [De Burgh]. The sun, moon, and twelve stars, are emblematical of Jacob, Leah, or else Rachel, and the twelve patriarchs, that is, the Jewish Church: secondarily, the Church universal, having under her feet, in due subordination, the ever changing moon, which shines with a borrowed light, emblem of the Jewish dispensation, which is now in a position of inferiority, though supporting the woman, and also of the changeful things of this world, and having on her head the crown of twelve stars, the twelve apostles, who, however, are related closely to Israel’s twelve tribes. The Church, in passing over into the Gentile world, is (1) persecuted; (2) then seduced, as heathenism begins to react on her.

Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown, Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible, vol. 2 (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 579.

As we all know, Revelation is very figurative. The fact that the woman gives birth to a son does not automatically make her Mary. Nor does this depiction, tie to the mention of the Ark.

It is a description of what John sees, the Ark, the Ark of the New Covenant. Obviously the woman, the mother of the one who will rule all of the nations with an iron rod (Jesus), is Mary. Certainly there are layers of representation, with the Church, with the twelve Apostles, being represented in one layer. But this woman wears clothes, a real woman, and also wears a crown. Mary too, is a queen like the other queen mothers before her in the Davidic kingdom. The dragon also is a real entity--Satan.

 

[JulieB67]

The Catholic Church set out to determine what was God-breathed text and what was not.

And as I pointed out earlier, they failed in some instances. The book of Judith is a work of fiction. There are too many contradictions. Catholics might believe it's inspired but as I posted earlier in this thread, God doesn't have to deal in fiction and I don't believe he does. That would only cause confusion, especially to a new believer and might turn someone off of God and the Word completely. And it's one thing to write a book of fiction if that's the purpose to begin with but you shouldn't have to change known historical facts to do so. Especially when it's the Word of God we are talking about. And we know God is not the author of confusion. And this book has confused many with it's known errors.

 

[Valletta]

And as I pointed out earlier, they failed in some instances. The book of Judith is a work of fiction. There are too many contradictions. Catholics might believe it's inspired but as I posted earlier in this thread, God doesn't have to deal in fiction and I don't believe he does. That would only cause confusion, especially to a new believer and might turn someone off of God and the Word completely. And it's one thing to write a book of fiction if that's the purpose to begin with but you shouldn't have to change known historical facts to do so. Especially when it's the Word of God we are talking about. And we know God is not the author of confusion. And this book has confused many with it's known errors.

As I've said, the process of the Catholic Church choosing the 73 books of the Bible spanned centuries. There was a great deal of input from those much closer to time of the Apostles, so they could determine which books the Apostles taught from. Also we are far removed from the Jews of the first century, where then the style would be evident to those Jews it is understandable that nearly two thousand years later it would confuse you. In fact there are a number of Old Testament passages that confuse many Protestants, as we have seen in recent posts, who are unfamiliar with Jewish idioms.