If you believe the Blessed Virgin Mary sinned...

[JoeT]

Mary is in heaven. It is her earthly body that hasn't been raised yet. When we die, the exact same thing will happen with us. We don't have to believe Mary's earthly body has been raised to hope ours will be. Jesus promised they would be and He is our example and proof that our bodies will be raised and made anew as His was. One can believe this and not doubt that Christ is both man and God.

You say that with such forceful ignorance. I'm sure you've located her bones, just like the ones of St. Peter that aren't suppose to be in Rome. If Jesus Christ didn't raise His mother into heaven, what hope do you have that He will raise you? Seems a bit counter intuitive to me.

Protestants do not believe that we only have to believe in His name to be saved. We have to believe in Him. Who He is which includes His grace. His name is a means of identification but it is who He is that we must believe in.

The demons knew Jesus Christ.

Give us one example of anyone in Scripture praying to anyone other than God (not counting those who prayed to false gods). Prayer by definition is talking to God. We cannot pray to a fellow human or a "saint." Only God is a rightful object of prayer. Scripture nowhere teaches otherwise. Asking another person here on earth to pray for me is far different than asking someone in heaven to pray for me. God has not permitted us or given us a means to contact those in heaven.

"And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" [Apocalypse 5:8]. Seems a lot prayed to the saints.

JoeT

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

You say that with such forceful ignorance. I'm sure you've located her bones, just like the ones of St. Peter that aren't suppose to be in Rome. If Jesus Christ didn't raise His mother into heaven, what hope do you have that He will raise you? Seems a bit counter intuitive to me.

The demons knew Jesus Christ.

"And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" [Apocalypse 5:8]. Seems a lot prayed to the saints.

JoeT

John 11:25-26​

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 14:1–3​

“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.”

1 Corinthians 15:26—27, 54–57​

The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.

When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:49–52​

Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

Philippians 3:20–21​

But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

2 Timothy 1:8–10​

Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

Isaiah 25:8​

He will swallow up death forever;
and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces,
and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth,
for the LORD has spoken.

There are others but these are the very words of God. If I cannot trust God to keep His word then I have no faith. His word is enough for me and should be for you. I don't need him to prove it to me. He raised Jesus from the dead. Is that not proof enough?

When I say we must believe in who Christ is, believing implies taking action on that knowledge. If you truly believe Jesus is God then you would want to follow and obey Him. Otherwise, you don't really believe in who He is.

 

[JoeT]

John 11:25-26​

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 14:1–3​

“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.”

1 Corinthians 15:26—27, 54–57​

The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.

When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:


The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:49–52​

Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

Philippians 3:20–21​

But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

2 Timothy 1:8–10​

Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

Isaiah 25:8​

There are others but these are the very words of God. If I cannot trust God to keep His word then I have no faith. His word is enough for me and should be for you. I don't need him to prove it to me. He raised Jesus from the dead. Is that not proof enough?

When I say we must believe in who Christ is, believing implies taking action on that knowledge. If you truly believe Jesus is God then you would want to follow and obey Him. Otherwise, you don't really believe in who He is.

I say a lot of things such as, "I believe". The action is not in the knowledge, it is in the doing.

But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep [John 10:26].

JoeT

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

I say a lot of things such as, "I believe". The action is not in the knowledge, it is in the doing.

But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep [John 10:26].

JoeT

According to the Bible, faith is a gift from God. He gives us the faith to believe in Him. When we exercise that faith (truly believing) we are saved. Then God begins a process of sanctification through which we start to change and our actions, our doing, become the evidence of our saving faith. That is what the Book of Jude talks about. If you say you have saving faith, but your life shows no evidence, then you need to examine your faith. I don't believe salvation is the result of "saying the magic words."

In John 10:26, Jesus ascribes their lack of faith to the fact that they were "not of my sheep." They were not given saving faith. They may have mouthed some words but they did not truly believe. If I believe jumping off the Empire State building will kill me, and I say so, and say I have no interest in dying, but then jump off the Empire State building it is clear I didn't not truly believe it would kill me or else my actions would have reflected that. If I say Jesus is my Lord and Savior but insist on ignoring His will and only ever doing what I want, then I clearly did not truly believe He was my Lord. Our actions are evidence of our faith but not the basis of our salvation.

 

[JoeT]

According to the Bible, faith is a gift from God. He gives us the faith to believe in Him. When we exercise that faith (truly believing) we are saved. Then God begins a process of sanctification through which we start to change and our actions, our doing, become the evidence of our saving faith. That is what the Book of Jude talks about. If you say you have saving faith, but your life shows no evidence, then you need to examine your faith. I don't believe salvation is the result of "saying the magic words."

In John 10:26, Jesus ascribes their lack of faith to the fact that they were "not of my sheep." They were not given saving faith. They may have mouthed some words but they did not truly believe. If I believe jumping off the Empire State building will kill me, and I say so, and say I have no interest in dying, but then jump off the Empire State building it is clear I didn't not truly believe it would kill me or else my actions would have reflected that. If I say Jesus is my Lord and Savior but insist on ignoring His will and only ever doing what I want, then I clearly did not truly believe He was my Lord. Our actions are evidence of our faith but not the basis of our salvation.

But, believing Him means you are of the one sheep.

JoeT

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

But, believing Him means you are of the one sheep.

JoeT

All who believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior are His sheep. No matter where they live or what church they go to. Just like His church is not confined to one group or ecclesiastical structure.

 

[JoeT]

All who believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior are His sheep. No matter where they live or what church they go to. Just like His church is not confined to one group or ecclesiastical structure.

Based on your response, Christ isn't Lord of one Kingdom but He is Lord over multiple Kingdoms. That doesn't seem to be reflected in Scripture.

JoeT

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Based on your response, Christ isn't Lord of one Kingdom but He is Lord over multiple Kingdoms. That doesn't seem to be reflected in Scripture.

JoeT

Why would you assume Christ's kingdom can only contain one ecclesiastical structure? Is He not king over all? Does His kingdom not encompass the entire earth?

When Catholics see the word "church" they think of an institution with a structure. The Bible describes all who follow Christ as part of "the church" and part of "His kingdom." Jesus did not set up an earthly institution. He set up a family of believers spanning ages, nations, churches, etc. His flock contains all who hear His voice no matter what their church affiliation. All are part of His kingdom. Do not constrain what God has not.

 

[JoeT]

Why would you assume Christ's kingdom can only contain one ecclesiastical structure? Is He not king over all? Does His kingdom not encompass the entire earth?

When Catholics see the word "church" they think of an institution with a structure. The Bible describes all who follow Christ as part of "the church" and part of "His kingdom."

I don't assume the Kingdom here on earth, His Kingdom did come at His ascension. Reading Sacred Scripture, you'll find His Kingdom. Don't dismiss it as another symbol, "For they have not rejected thee, but me, that I should not reign over them" [1 Kings 8:7]

The Apostles came to Christ asking if He will establish his Kingdom on the spot. He said, “ It is not for you to know the times or moments, which the Father hath put in his own power But you shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth [Acts 1:6-8] And when did the Holy Spirit come? At Pentecost, where they were filled with the Holy Spirit, "they were all filled with the Holy Spirit [Acts 2:4]

One God, One Church.

Jesus did not set up an earthly institution.

Jesus did indeed "set up His earthly Kingdom or if you please His earthly Church. He said, "I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" [Matthew 16:18]. Not only did Christ build His Church, He built it on Peter whom you renounce as head of the Church. Jesus commissions empowering the one true church [Matthew 28:16-20].

He set up a family of believers spanning ages, nations, churches, etc. His flock contains all who hear His voice no matter what their church affiliation. All are part of His kingdom. Do not constrain what God has not.

There is but one family of believers, spanning all ages, and nations, those who are members of the Body of Christ, the Catholic Church. Do you reject Him by rejecting the Church?

Non-Catholics believe they have absolute sovereignty and independence of God and His authority; believing one religion is as good as another, i.e. relativism. Looking inward for authority, each rationalist holds the necessary individual authority to establish basic cosmic truths. This seems to transform into complete independence from any social morality not otherwise originating from their own interior. This degradation continues with the implied right to judge moral and civil law. The argument extended is to say that God’s laws are relative; “what’s true for you, may not be true for me”. Polls becomes the important indicator for right and wrong; rather than God’s immutable truth. And finally, in the extreme the relativism requires absolute freedom of thought in matters of morality and religion. The paradigm resulting from this is complete independence from God's will unless it happens to coincide with the current paradigm.

Thus, believing in Him means you are of the one sheep, not multiple sheep in thousands of flocks with an equal number of truths.

JoeT

 

[Dan Perez]

I don't assume the Kingdom here on earth, His Kingdom did come at His ascension. Reading Sacred Scripture, you'll find His Kingdom. Don't dismiss it as another symbol, "For they have not rejected thee, but me, that I should not reign over them" [1 Kings 8:7]

The Apostles came to Christ asking if He will establish his Kingdom on the spot. He said, “ It is not for you to know the times or moments, which the Father hath put in his own power But you shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth [Acts 1:6-8] And when did the Holy Spirit come? At Pentecost, where they were filled with the Holy Spirit, "they were all filled with the Holy Spirit [Acts 2:4]

One God, One Church.

Jesus did indeed "set up His earthly Kingdom or if you please His earthly Church. He said, "I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" [Matthew 16:18]. Not only did Christ build His Church, He built it on Peter whom you renounce as head of the Church. Jesus commissions empowering the one true church [Matthew 28:16-20].

There is but one family of believers, spanning all ages, and nations, those who are members of the Body of Christ, the Catholic Church. Do you reject Him by rejecting the Church?

Non-Catholics believe they have absolute sovereignty and independence of God and His authority; believing one religion is as good as another, i.e. relativism. Looking inward for authority, each rationalist holds the necessary individual authority to establish basic cosmic truths. This seems to transform into complete independence from any social morality not otherwise originating from their own interior. This degradation continues with the implied right to judge moral and civil law. The argument extended is to say that God’s laws are relative; “what’s true for you, may not be true for me”. Polls becomes the important indicator for right and wrong; rather than God’s immutable truth. And finally, in the extreme the relativism requires absolute freedom of thought in matters of morality and religion. The paradigm resulting from this is complete independence from God's will unless it happens to coincide with the current paradigm.

Thus, believing in Him means you are of the one sheep, not multiple sheep in thousands of flocks with an equal number of truths.

JoeT

And in John 3:13 reads , No Man // Oudeis , is in the Greek Nominative case , meaning the subject , Active Voice , in teh Indicative Mood , means you better believe it , in the Singular .

Hath Ascended // Anabaino , is in the Present Tense , in the Active Voice , in the Indicative Mood , in the Singular .

To Heaven // Ouranos is in the Accusative Case , in the Singular .

No one has GONE to Heaven , period .

dan p

 

[JoeT]

And in John 3:13 reads , No Man // Oudeis , is in the Greek Nominative case , meaning the subject , Active Voice , in teh Indicative Mood , means you better believe it , in the Singular .

Hath Ascended // Anabaino , is in the Present Tense , in the Active Voice , in the Indicative Mood , in the Singular .

To Heaven // Ouranos is in the Accusative Case , in the Singular .

No one has GONE to Heaven , period .

dan p

That's nice to know, I'll have to remember this for some future use. But what is the relevance to post 69? Is there one?

JoeT

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

I don't assume the Kingdom here on earth, His Kingdom did come at His ascension. Reading Sacred Scripture, you'll find His Kingdom. Don't dismiss it as another symbol, "For they have not rejected thee, but me, that I should not reign over them" [1 Kings 8:7]

The Apostles came to Christ asking if He will establish his Kingdom on the spot. He said, “ It is not for you to know the times or moments, which the Father hath put in his own power But you shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth [Acts 1:6-8] And when did the Holy Spirit come? At Pentecost, where they were filled with the Holy Spirit, "they were all filled with the Holy Spirit [Acts 2:4]

One God, One Church.

Jesus did indeed "set up His earthly Kingdom or if you please His earthly Church. He said, "I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" [Matthew 16:18]. Not only did Christ build His Church, He built it on Peter whom you renounce as head of the Church. Jesus commissions empowering the one true church [Matthew 28:16-20].

You are confusing Christ's kingdom on earth (for the Jews) and His spiritual kingdom of God. The Jews were promised a kingdom on earth that the Messiah would establish. This was their expectation when Jesus claimed to be the Messiah. We see this in the Apostles questioning Him. Jesus though threw them for a loop when He said it was not yet time for Him to establish His earthly kingdom. He was there at that time to set up a spiritual kingdom. He would establish the earthly kingdom promised to the Jews after His Second Coming during His millennial reign. The 1 Kings passage is a prophecy that the Jews would reject Christ as their Messiah. The Jews rejected Christ because He was not there then to establish that earthly kingdom. They missed that the Messiah would first come to establish a spiritual kingdom.

One God, One Church.

Jesus did indeed "set up His earthly Kingdom or if you please His earthly Church. He said, "I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" [Matthew 16:18]. Not only did Christ build His Church, He built it on Peter whom you renounce as head of the Church. Jesus commissions empowering the one true church [Matthew 28:16-20].

There is but one family of believers, spanning all ages, and nations, those who are members of the Body of Christ, the Catholic Church. Do you reject Him by rejecting the Church?

Non-Catholics believe they have absolute sovereignty and independence of God and His authority; believing one religion is as good as another, i.e. relativism. Looking inward for authority, each rationalist holds the necessary individual authority to establish basic cosmic truths. This seems to transform into complete independence from any social morality not otherwise originating from their own interior. This degradation continues with the implied right to judge moral and civil law. The argument extended is to say that God’s laws are relative; “what’s true for you, may not be true for me”. Polls becomes the important indicator for right and wrong; rather than God’s immutable truth. And finally, in the extreme the relativism requires absolute freedom of thought in matters of morality and religion. The paradigm resulting from this is complete independence from God's will unless it happens to coincide with the current paradigm.

Thus, believing in Him means you are of the one sheep, not multiple sheep in thousands of flocks with an equal number of truths.

JoeT

I don't assume the Kingdom here on earth, His Kingdom did come at His ascension. Reading Sacred Scripture, you'll find His Kingdom. Don't dismiss it as another symbol, "For they have not rejected thee, but me, that I should not reign over them" [1 Kings 8:7]

The Apostles came to Christ asking if He will establish his Kingdom on the spot. He said, “ It is not for you to know the times or moments, which the Father hath put in his own power But you shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth [Acts 1:6-8] And when did the Holy Spirit come? At Pentecost, where they were filled with the Holy Spirit, "they were all filled with the Holy Spirit [Acts 2:4]

One God, One Church.

Jesus did indeed "set up His earthly Kingdom or if you please His earthly Church. He said, "I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" [Matthew 16:18]. Not only did Christ build His Church, He built it on Peter whom you renounce as head of the Church. Jesus commissions empowering the one true church [Matthew 28:16-20].

You are confusing Christ's kingdom on earth (for the Jews) and His spiritual kingdom of God. The Jews were promised a kingdom on earth that the Messiah would establish. This was their expectation when Jesus claimed to be the Messiah. We see this in the Apostles questioning Him. Jesus though threw them for a loop when He said it was not yet time for Him to establish His earthly kingdom. He was there at that time to set up a spiritual kingdom. He would establish the earthly kingdom promised to the Jews after His Second Coming during His millennial reign. The 1 Kings passage is a prophecy that the Jews would reject Christ as their Messiah. The Jews rejected Christ because He was not there then to establish that earthly kingdom. They missed that the Messiah would first come to establish a spiritual kingdom.

Jesus did not set up His earthly kingdom at that time. He only set up a spiritual kingdom - the Kingdom of God. The earthly kingdom is yet to come. Christ rules from heaven now but in that future kingdom, He will sit on a throne on earth.

There is but one family of believers, spanning all ages, and nations, those who are members of the Body of Christ, the Catholic Church. Do you reject Him by rejecting the Church?

I am not rejecting His body of believers on earth ("the church"). I reject the notion that any one denomination is "the Church." I don't believe Catholics or Orthodox or Presbyterians or Lutherans or Methodists or Baptists or Non-Denominational, ... are the only true church. We must separate ecclesiastical unity from spiritual unity. All who are truly in Christ are members of one body. That body is not an ecclesiastical body. It is a spiritual body. I don't reject that body. I don't recognize the Catholic church as that body. There are no doubt individual Catholics that are part of the spiritual body of Christ (the church) but I don't recognize any one institution as synonomous with the Body of Christ.

So why isn't there one "true church" (i.e. one denomination that is the rightful church)? Because we are still sinners. We still make mistakes. Israel was "God's people" yet not all Israelites were true believers. God allowed them to be taken into captivity. There were times when no one sat on the throne of David. Times when the nation was scattered. Times when the leadership was corrupt. There were good kings and bad kings. Faithful kings and faithless kings. Yet God always kept a remnant and He never allowed the entire nation to go astray. He made a covenant with Israel and made promises some of which are yet to be fulfilled. He will fulfill them. Like Israel, the church is not perfect. We have seen corrupt leaders and good leaders. We have seen false doctrine and good doctrine. We are told the tares will grow among the wheat and at times be indistinguishable from the wheat. Yet, God is preserving a remnant. Faith will never be gone from the earth. It is that remnant that the gates of hell will never prevail against. It is that body of believers Satan will never snuff out. He will lead many astray but never everyone. Christ will always have those who worship Him "in spirit and in truth." That is the church that will prevail. It is not a church built with hands or organized as one denomination. Believers are scattered across many denominations. When we are in heaven there will be no failures. That spiritual body will also be a physical body in one location with one leader (Christ).

We are not yet in Christ's earthly kingdom. He is not yet sitting on a throne on earth. That is coming.

Non-Catholics believe they have absolute sovereignty and independence of God and His authority; believing one religion is as good as another, i.e. relativism. Looking inward for authority, each rationalist holds the necessary individual authority to establish basic cosmic truths. This seems to transform into complete independence from any social morality not otherwise originating from their own interior. This degradation continues with the implied right to judge moral and civil law. The argument extended is to say that God’s laws are relative; “what’s true for you, may not be true for me”. Polls becomes the important indicator for right and wrong; rather than God’s immutable truth. And finally, in the extreme the relativism requires absolute freedom of thought in matters of morality and religion. The paradigm resulting from this is complete independence from God's will unless it happens to coincide with the current paradigm.

Thus, believing in Him means you are of the one sheep, not multiple sheep in thousands of flocks with an equal number of truths.

I don't believe one religion is as good as another. I don't think there is any Christian denomination or local church that has everything right. We are all flawed. While there are many Protestant denominations, what binds them together is their belief in the essentials of the faith. Sure, we emphasize different things or have different traditions or styles but those things are areas of freedom. I don't believe there is only one right way to run a service. Some denominations are very liturgical. Some aren't. Some insist on very traditional music. Some feature contemporary music. Some churches meet in high school gymnasiums or outdoors while others meet in glorious cathedrals or churches. We must be united on the essentials of the faith. That is what makes us all Christians. In other areas, there is freedom and I don't judge another church or denomination if they differ from my preferences or beliefs so long as they get the essentials right.

Believing we have freedom in certain areas does not make us rationalists. I don't have total moral independence. If I persist in sin, the process of church discipline as outlined in Matthew 18 will take place. People who deny absolute truth aren't following the Bible. We can differences of opinions on non-essentials but that is not the same as saying it's all relative. There is only one truth (or set of truths) but I also see where God has given us freedom in some areas where it's not a matter of truth versus a lie. In describing people who follow polls, you are mostly talking about non-believers. There are many Catholics who follow polls. Not all Catholics agree on abortion or same-sex marriage. You might argue that such people aren't true Catholics. Perhaps not. Tares among the wheat. You can point out to me carnal Protestants and I can point out to you carnal Catholics. Is Joe Biden a true Catholic? He supports abortion and same-sex marriage, etc. Yet he still attends mass and I don't believe he has ever been ex-communicated. Should I judge all Catholics because of Joe Biden. Of course not. The Catholic church may be clear on things like abortion or same-sex marriage yet not all Catholics, though baptized by the church, accept the teachings or authority of the church. You imply that since Protestants don't recognize a universal authority (i.e. the Catholic church), we have become our own judges who care not for truth but what about those Catholics who don't follow the teachings of the church? How many have been ex-communicated? Has Matthew 18 been followed with them? You claim that their is one flock and one truth yet millions of your own members reject that. Tares and wheat. There are a good number of Catholics that do what is right in their own eyes despite the clear teaching of their church. Authority is only of value in so far as people recognize it and follow it. What good is that authority is a man like Joe Biden can publicly endorse abortion and same-sex marriage and suffer no repercussions? What good is Protestant authority when churches fail to practice church discipline or endorse these same things as some Protestant churches do?

The "one flock" is not physical. It is a spiritual flock. There is only one truth but there are things that are non-essentials that we can have different opinions on. Not all things are truths as God has not commanded us in all areas. We have freedom in some things. The Catholic church wants to define everything. They have thousands and thousands of pages of doctrine and decrees. Some of those are in areas of freedom. It's fine for the Catholic church to have their beliefs on those things but to say their way of seeing those things is the only way is not Biblical. Not in areas the Bible has not given us clear instructions on. You obviously believe your church has that authority. I don't. I don't believe we are in Christ's earthly kingdom. That Bible does not teach that. You love to talk about how the mass is taken from the Book of Revelation and how Mary is depicted as the Ark of the New Covenant in Revelation, yet your church writes off the rest of Revelation as figurative. It is amillennial. It does not believe in a literal millennial reign of Christ on earth. It picks and chooses what it wants to treat as literal. Yes, there is obvious symbolism in Revelation and not even all Protestant churches share the same escathology. We can agree to disagree on that. Not essential doctrine. That is why I don't get dogmatic when it comes to eschatology. I have my beliefs but I don't insist on them. I don't judge others who see it differently than I do. As an old pastor of mine says, he believes in "pantheology" - it will all pan out in the end. In reality, he was a premillienitalist but his point was it's not essential we figure that all out. It doesn't change the rest of our beliefs.

There is one flock and one set of truths. Believers, regardless of their church affiliation, are part of that one flock.

JoeT

 

[HopeSings]

The following questions are addressed to those who believe the Blessed Virgin Mary actively sinned. What are your answers?

• Why did the prophet, Isaiah, refer to Mary by the title "the virgin" as opposed to "a virgin," if Her virginal vow was to be temporary?
• Why did Mary need to be a virgin in order to conceive and raise God Incarnate?
• Why did Mary ask the angel, Gabriel, "How is this possible when I know not man?" when She was already married by that time, and if you believe Her and Joseph were having intercourse?
• Why did God have the Ark of the Covenant be made with the purest materials to carry the written Word, but had an impure ark (Mary) carry the Word made flesh?

Mary, like all born again Christians, are spiritual virgins.

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Revelation 14:4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

​

 

[prodromos]

I don't believe Catholics or Orthodox or Presbyterians or Lutherans or Methodists or Baptists or Non-Denominational, ... are the only true church. We must separate ecclesiastical unity from spiritual unity. All who are truly in Christ are members of one body. That body is not an ecclesiastical body. It is a spiritual body.

This theology is the outcome of the disunity among the various Protestant sects that multiplied after the reformation. Such a theology of the Church was completely unknown prior to the reformation. Rather, Christians were called to be of one mind and to hold fast to the traditions they had been taught either face to face or by epistle.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

This theology is the outcome of the disunity among the various Protestant sects that multiplied after the reformation. Such a theology of the Church was completely unknown prior to the reformation. Rather, Christians were called to be of one mind and to hold fast to the traditions they had been taught either face to face or by epistle.

That was all well and good until the Catholic church started selling indulgences among other things. Priests started realizing their church had strayed from the truth. They tried to reform it but were tried and sometimes executed for their attempts. The church would not even answer them at their trials. Total obedience is all Rome cared about.

We are not called to hold fast to traditions. Only to the Word of God.

 

[prodromos]

That was all well and good until the Catholic church started selling indulgences among other things. Priests started realizing their church had strayed from the truth.

You are only talking about the Church in Rome while ignoring the rest of the Church

We are not called to hold fast to traditions. Only to the Word of God.

2 Thessalonians 2:15

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

I don't assume the Kingdom here on earth, His Kingdom did come at His ascension. Reading Sacred Scripture, you'll find His Kingdom. Don't dismiss it as another symbol, "For they have not rejected thee, but me, that I should not reign over them" [1 Kings 8:7]

The Apostles came to Christ asking if He will establish his Kingdom on the spot. He said, “ It is not for you to know the times or moments, which the Father hath put in his own power But you shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth [Acts 1:6-8] And when did the Holy Spirit come? At Pentecost, where they were filled with the Holy Spirit, "they were all filled with the Holy Spirit [Acts 2:4]

One God, One Church.

Jesus did indeed "set up His earthly Kingdom or if you please His earthly Church. He said, "I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" [Matthew 16:18]. Not only did Christ build His Church, He built it on Peter whom you renounce as head of the Church. Jesus commissions empowering the one true church [Matthew 28:16-20].

You are confusing Christ's kingdom on earth (for the Jews) and His spiritual kingdom of God. The Jews were promised a kingdom on earth that the Messiah would establish. This was their expectation when Jesus claimed to be the Messiah. We see this in the Apostles questioning Him. Jesus though threw them for a loop when He said it was not yet time for Him to establish His earthly kingdom. He was there at that time to set up a spiritual kingdom. He would establish the earthly kingdom promised to the Jews after His Second Coming during His millennial reign. The 1 Kings passage is a prophecy that the Jews would reject Christ as their Messiah. The Jews rejected Christ because He was not there then to establish that earthly kingdom. They missed that the Messiah would first come to establish a spiritual kingdom.

One God, One Church.

Jesus did indeed "set up His earthly Kingdom or if you please His earthly Church. He said, "I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" [Matthew 16:18]. Not only did Christ build His Church, He built it on Peter whom you renounce as head of the Church. Jesus commissions empowering the one true church [Matthew 28:16-20].

There is but one family of believers, spanning all ages, and nations, those who are members of the Body of Christ, the Catholic Church. Do you reject Him by rejecting the Church?

Non-Catholics believe they have absolute sovereignty and independence of God and His authority; believing one religion is as good as another, i.e. relativism. Looking inward for authority, each rationalist holds the necessary individual authority to establish basic cosmic truths. This seems to transform into complete independence from any social morality not otherwise originating from their own interior. This degradation continues with the implied right to judge moral and civil law. The argument extended is to say that God’s laws are relative; “what’s true for you, may not be true for me”. Polls becomes the important indicator for right and wrong; rather than God’s immutable truth. And finally, in the extreme the relativism requires absolute freedom of thought in matters of morality and religion. The paradigm resulting from this is complete independence from God's will unless it happens to coincide with the current paradigm.

Thus, believing in Him means you are of the one sheep, not multiple sheep in thousands of flocks with an equal number of truths.

JoeT

You are only talking about the Church in Rome while ignoring the rest of the Church

2 Thessalonians 2:15

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

Teachings directly from the Apostles are one thing. Traditions passed down for centuries and never found in Scripture are another. We test all things by Scripture. Traditions included.

I was only referring to the Roman Catholic church.