World religions versus Christianity

[FireDragon76]

A separation principle does help secularism grow, but secularism is certainly not limited to a separation principle:

Secularism: indifference to or rejection or exclusion of religion and religious considerations (Merriam-Webster)

Secularism: the belief that religion should not be involved in the organization of society, education, etc. (Oxford Learner's Dictionary)
​

The question at hand is quite simple: is religion or atheism more acceptable to the secular mind? Once we grant the secular nature of the West OB's claims disintegrate.

"Religion" doesn't exist in the abstract, only in particulars. So the question is, whose religion? Secular states just say "none", in the interests of pluralism and freedom. That's only a bad thing if you think its OK to use violence to coerce me, or other unbelievers, to be a Christian (or whatever your creed may be).

 

[zippy2006]

"Religion" doesn't exist in the abstract, only in particulars.

You keep saying this. You also said it with respect to secularism, right before you made a concrete statement about the entity "secularism". Words like 'religion,' 'secularism,' 'Christianity,' and 'atheism' are all concepts that involve a large variety of concrete instantiations. Such is life; such is everything. "Religion" is of course partly abstract. That doesn't mean that it has no definition, that we can't talk about it, or that it doesn't enter into relations with secularism and atheism. This isn't a real objection.

So the question is, whose religion?

If I recall correctly we are talking about Christianity.

Secular states just say "none", in the interests of pluralism and freedom.

In which case, on your view the "question" doesn't matter, because secular states don't care whose religion we are talking about. ..lol. So remind me again why the question "whose religion?" was pertinent at all?

That's only a bad thing if you think its OK to use violence to coerce me, or other unbelievers, to be a Christian (or whatever your creed may be).

"Christians are bad because they have used violence to coerce."

See, that has nothing to do with the topic we are talking about. Lots of things that you and OB are saying have nothing to do with the topic, which is why I have been ignoring much of it.

The question is whether atheists tend to have a better understanding of Christianity or Christians tend to have a better understanding of atheism. Nothing you've written in this post impinges on that question.

 

[Occams Barber]

The question is whether atheists tend to have a better understanding of Christianity or Christians tend to have a better understanding of atheism. Nothing you've written in this post impinges on that question.

Catch up Zippy. We're way beyond this. You've chosen to reinterpret secularist to mean atheist to match your Christian persecution narrative. Secularists can be atheists or Christians or pagans or Moslems or Jews or whatever. Atheists are a tiny proportion of the population. Even those who, increasingly, define themselves as "no religion" are rarely atheists. They tend to believe in 'something up' there - a higher power of sorts - just not your particular god. A secular society has plenty of room for your religion - it just won't allow you to dominate.

If Western Christianity is to save itself it needs to think long and hard (and honestly) about itself. On one hand I hear laments about 'persecution'. On the other hand there's the self serving pretence that dwindling numbers are a good thing since it's flushing out the Christians who were never really Christians. Then there's the trope that it's all the fault of the moral collapse of Western society while, at the same time, Christianity lauds itself as being the major moral force in Western society.

The world is changing Zippy. If Christianity can't work out how to accommodate to the changes it will, inevitably, continue to fade into the background.

OB

 

[Rachel20]

Secularism is not, in fact, a worldview at all. It's nothing more than not privileging any particular religious viewpoint in public life.

Wiki has it described as a worldview. So it appears a matter of opinion. There are Christians who also prefer the separation of state and religion aspect too, so it's not necessarily an "atheist" worldview, which is why I asked OB for their worldview.

If something is untrue, the potential dangers in it are obvious.

That's a big "If". You're free to prove it untrue though.

 

[Rachel20]

This is what I mean about not understanding. Atheism is not a worldview....

For what its worth I answered a similar question a few months back:

I'll accept atheist as a basic description. Beyond that I'm reluctant to adopt labels since they often carry baggage which doesn't necessarily apply. I might be a nihilistic nihilist since I suspect that nihilism is normality and would not exist as a concept if people realised that life doesn't need a reason anymore than cauliflowers need a reason. It's a bit like the idea that there would be no atheists if everyone stopped believing in a God. You can't not-believe in something which doesn't exist.

Apart from that, I'm probably a materialist since I only accept that there's 'real' stuff. I think free will is illusory and I have a conviction that most people are OK if you give them half a chance. I'm also pretty sure that there are no little green men flitting around in flying saucers and the world isn't flat.

Putting all of this together - I'm a sort of atheistic, nihilistic nihilist, deterministic materialist with a generous dash of optimistic scepticism.​

Do you think atheism leaves you with many choices other than nihilism & materialism? What else would there be? Would it be more accurate to say atheism shapes your worldview by limiting your choices?

 

[Occams Barber]

Wiki has it described as a worldview. So it appears a matter of opinion. There are Christians who also prefer the separation of state and religion aspect too, so it's not necessarily an "atheist" worldview, which is why I asked OB for their worldview.

I think the concept of 'worldview' is a continuum. Liking chocolate is not a worldview but being vegan is arguably verging on a worldview.

In my experience Christians will tend to see atheism (for instance) as a worldview because they have difficulty in conceiving of a (non) religious conviction without the panoply of dogma/doctrine/morality/rules/rites that go with Christianity.

If Christians see secularism as threatening Christianity they are probably more likely to see it as a worldview. They will see the decisions made in a secular society as demonstrating a secular worldview where 'secularism' is really about the process of making those decisions. Two secular societies could reach radically different positions on the same issue.

There is no 'secular' doctrine, dogma or rulebook apart from the principle of separating church and state.

OB

 

[awitch]

Do you think atheism leaves you with many choices other than nihilism & materialism? What else would there be? Would it be more accurate to say atheism shapes your worldview by limiting your choices?

I think someone would have to be profoundly ignorant to suggest atheists would reject moral principals and be incapable of finding meaning or purpose in life.

 

[Rachel20]

I think someone would have to be profoundly ignorant to suggest atheists would reject moral principals and be incapable of finding meaning or purpose in life.

Father forgive me for I have sinned (by asking a question of an athest!) lol

 

[awitch]

Father forgive me for I have sinned (by asking a question of an athest!) lol

I was being serious. Is that really what you think about atheists?

 

[Rachel20]

I was being serious. Is that really what you think about atheists?

The difference between temporal and eternal purpose is so vast, it makes the first meaningless to me, even if the atheist thinks it something, not having anything else to compare.

 

[Occams Barber]

Do you think atheism leaves you with many choices other than nihilism & materialism? What else would there be? Would it be more accurate to say atheism shapes your worldview by limiting your choices?

Being an atheist cuts out God belief along with the limitations imposed by god belief. Apart from that I probably have more choices of 'worldview' than you have since I have no rulebook telling what is or isn't acceptable.

The concept of nihilism conjures up all sorts of associations. I usually avoid the term apart from an occasional tongue-in-cheek reference. In the broadest sense life can't logically have 'meaning' or 'purpose'. To have either of these requires a god concept. This doesn't mean I wander around with a big unpurposeful hole in my life. In fact I'm probably no different to a Christian in the way I live and look at life. God is just not a factor. I doubt that even your average Christian could define the 'meaning of life' without resorting to Christian theobabble or jargonistic truisms.

I think the issue here is what I'm missing by not believing in God. Eternal life doesn't interest me. Rule based morality seems to me to be wrong and dangerous thinking. I don't seem to need an invisible friend. I can't conceive of 'salvation'. I have no particular need for reassurance from a hypothetical father figure.

Materialism is just absence of the supernatural. Its not a choice I make. Its a reality I live with.

OB

 

[awitch]

The difference between temporal and eternal purpose is so vast, it makes the first meaningless to me, even if the atheist thinks it something, not having anything else to compare.

Then it sounds to me like you're the one who is limited and missing out, but if you're happy then I'm happy for you.

 

[Rachel20]

but if you're happy then I'm happy for you.

Thanks & likewise

 

[FireDragon76]

I think the concept of 'worldview' is a continuum. Liking chocolate is not a worldview but being vegan is arguably verging on a worldview.

In my experience Christians will tend to see atheism (for instance) as a worldview because they have difficulty in conceiving of a (non) religious conviction without the panoply of dogma/doctrine/morality/rules/rites that go with Christianity.

I would tend to agree, however, the materialism that most atheists in western cultures have is a worldview of sorts, and it's not some kind of objective perspective that is somehow intrinsic to humanity.

But materialism is not synonymous with atheism, necessarily.

 

[Rachel20]

I probably have more choices of 'worldview' than you have since I have no rulebook telling what is or isn't acceptable.

Actually you do. You're limited by the natural laws of materialism. You shut out all possibilities beyond them and that's a boundary far more confining than anything imposed by my beliefs.

I doubt that even your average Christian could define the 'meaning of life' without resorting to Christian theobabble or jargonistic truisms.

Like you said, it requires a god concept. And I would add eternal life.

Thanks for sharing your views with me.

 

[Occams Barber]

I would tend to agree, however, the materialism that most atheists in western cultures have is a worldview of sorts, and it's not some kind of objective perspective that is somehow intrinsic to humanity.

But materialism is not synonymous with atheism, necessarily.

I hate labels. They inevitably mean different things to different people and include specifics I may not accept buried in broad definitions. In post 111 I set out a definition of my worldview basically sending up the concept of labelling.

I don't see the difference between being materialistic and rejecting the supernatural (including gods) although it may be that the materialistic label encompasses more than I'm aware of.

To me rejecting the supernatural also equals being an atheist. I don't see atheism or materialism or rejecting the supernatural as worldviews since they don't include any particular behaviour or belief apart from 'no gods'. Other atheist may differ radically from me in their views on everything but we would still have atheism in common. If atheism or materialism were a worldview I would expect it would result in a significant commonality of beliefs or values or behaviour - we would share a similar worldview. Apart from 'no gods' I'm not aware of a set of atheist values etc. which necessarily define an atheist.

Maybe it goes back to how you define 'worldview'.

OB

 

[Occams Barber]

Actually you do. You're limited by the natural laws of materialism. You shut out all possibilities beyond them and that's a boundary far more confining than anything imposed by my beliefs.



Like you said, it requires a god concept. And I would add eternal life.

Thanks for sharing your views with me.

Thanks Rachel. I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

OB

 

[FireDragon76]

I hate labels. They inevitably mean different things to different people and include specifics I may not accept buried in broad definitions. In post 111 I set out a definition of my worldview basically sending up the concept of labelling.

I don't see the difference between being materialistic and rejecting the supernatural (including gods) although it may be that the materialistic label encompasses more than I'm aware of.

Atheism doesn't necessarily entail rejecting "the supernatural" (which is a decidedly western philosophical category). For instance, both Jainism and Buddhism might be considered to be atheistic, in the sense that they lack a belief in a creator or first cause.

 

[Occams Barber]

Atheism doesn't necessarily entail rejecting "the supernatural" (which is a decidedly western philosophical category). For instance, both Jainism and Buddhism might be considered to be atheistic, in the sense that they lack a belief in a creator or first cause.

Thanks FD

I was thinking of your basic, run-of-the-mill, standard model Western atheist.

Although, I will admit I've come across 'atheists' who consider themselves to be 'spiritual' (whatever that means).

I have the 'spirituality' of a house brick.

OB

 

[Zoness]

I honestly don't see how I'm framing it in Christian terms. Of course this is all speculation on my part how I might approach it if I were an atheist/agnostic interested in religion. I once tried to suspend belief in God temporarily just to see/feel the atheist angle, but wasn't successful.

I think for me the reason I think its framed in Christian terms is why would you start necessarily from a position of looking for a Messiah and assuming the Bible to be true in its description of the Messiah? The Jewish explanations for the lack of a Messiah are pretty compelling, but I am hardly an expert.

Maybe this would be the side effect of acculturation since Christianity is the primary respected religion of the western world.