"Word of Faith" -- is it true or false doctrine?

[Alive_Again]

Why the big "anti-WOF" thing you've been on lately?

You've stepped up and "identified" a few things that in your view are "Word of Faith", some of which are not Word of Faith at all, but like many Christians, some adhere to them. You're trumping them like a "head-hunter", and it is a gross misrepresentation of the whole.

There are three primary thoughts promoted under the name of WOF and which are heretical and about which all Christians ought to beware. They are the following:

1. The first primary heresy is that a person who has confessed Jesus as Lord and Savior will enter heaven even though that person lives in active sin....

This is not at all WOF.

... since a born again person is considered to be “in Christ” ... they ought not to necessarily kneel and prostrate before the Son of God and lay down their crowns before Him in order to worship Him.

This is really getting ugly. You presume to know the heart condition of believers and make them guilty of a lack of humility just because they don't say they're unworthy. They acknowledge that God made them as they should be.

In other words, they believe that born again people do not have to acknowledge their unworthiness as a creature before the Lord because they are “in Him”. Now, such a thought defies humility.

It does in your belief, but if that were true you wouldn't see the favor you often see in all believers who lack this sentiment. Your "vendetta" about this is kind of betrays a critical spirit and you should give believers the benefit of the doubt in Christian love.

3. The third primary heresy promoted under the name of WOF is that once people make confessions of Biblical promises on financial and material prosperity, regardless of despising the exercise of faith in His grace to live holy and be humble as seen above,

You realize that you basically offend the whole congregation with statements like this. Not that it will be held against you in some fashion, but to deliberately misrepresent WOF like this (bearing the shield no less) does not in any way promote unity.

You presume believers don't have humility -- across the board in WOF. You might as well and go ahead and indict the Spirit Filled section too. I only recall one person agreeing that they should continually see themselves as unworthy. Not that others might, but the important thing here is not to judge the hearts of people because they believe proper humility is to see His worthiness (not our unworthiness).

You also know the WOF SOF which is a requirement that you agree to in order to teach or debate there. You've chosen to do that anyway as though you believe the bit about not being unworthy.

We had a "civil disagreement about it", but you're taking it to the next level even though you should be able to present what you believe in peace.

...Now, people appear to flock to these groups who call themselves as WOF, from other denominations in order to become rich.

The typical WOF definition of "rich" is often described (by Hagin) as "a full supply". It's not about having excess, or trusting in riches, or not being a liberal giver. It's about having enough to do what you're called to do. A big part of that is to be a radical giver (still being learned).

It's like you received something that poisoned you. I've seen this in others who become "hyper-critical"; generalizing and judge hearts unworthy. People can disagree doctrinally and still be humble.

Can people who do not find it necessary to kneel, prostrate, lay down their crown and thus worship the Son of God enter heaven or lose their heavenly state just as Lucifer lost his state due to lack of humility?

I can only state that you've jumped from the high dive here. You'll find a lot of worshippers in WOF. They will gladly lay down their crown. I would say that most people (in all churches) don't serve the Lord for reward; they know who they are and who He is, and they are content with the thought of apprehending life by knowing Him.

I hope you don't stay this way, even though you believe what you do (no problem in that for yourself). You seem to be headed the same way some in the Spirit Filled section have gone. They read something more into the message and end up losing the revelation. They become bitter and judgmental.

Others in the Spirit Filled section are not that way at all. They may not agree with what they perceive to be WOF (in its entirety), but they do not judge. The "debate" section should not be the place of venom that it often becomes. It should be a search for truth that does not depart from the attributes of love.

 

[Alive_Again]

Quote: ""Word of Faith" -- is it true or false doctrine?":

...Faith means believing and confessing the grace of God.
...What is grace? It is the favor given by God to the unworthy.
...So what to do to receive His grace? Believe and confess both the favor of God and our unworthiness.
...So how to receive God's favor? By believing and confessing both our unworthiness and His favor contained in His promises.

It has been said that grace is unmerited favor. Unmerited, because man does not deserve it because of his sinful behavior. Man can no longer fellowship with God on the basis in which he was initially created. When people obey the Lord, they merit favor. It is not because they are so wonderful, but because they please God. So grace is "unmerited". So by receiving grace we inwardly know that it is not because of our wonderful deeds that we receive, but rather because of His love.

"A good man obtaineth favour of the LORD: but a man of wicked devices will he condemn."
Prov 12:2

It's not our "intrinsical goodness" either that we're "good men" (if we are). It's because we're walking in unity with the nature we've received (as a gift). But if you walk uprightly you'll obtain favour from the Lord. The "if" implies it's a choice that YOU do. At that point, it's not unmerited because you made the choice. Having said this, I can't imagine anyone even thinking that what we do "merits" anything because everyone knows where goodness and righteousness really come from. Anyone who slips into carnality KNOWS that it's not really us. YET, we have a small, but necessary part. That is the new man doing it. The old man is dead and is not to be considered. Why consider unworthiness? You're really considering HIS worthiness, and obey Him when you consider the unworthy part dead. (Not that he can't "rise up" again unworthily.)

It's important not to run with this here and imply that we think that because we're "in the door", that we belong there based on our own merits (even obeying God). All ability to walk in the light (blessing) is "through Him". That is why we acknowledge Him, not our dead selves. You have a new identity "in Christ" -- that's where you're yielded.

God set us all of the parameters for us to be continually blessed. None of it has to do with our (old man's) behavior (to be qualified). This is because man on his own, cannot please God. It is the carnal nature. But when you receive the nature of Christ (and walk in it, the big "IF"), it is a divine nature expressed. So it is this foundation of grace "in Him" that believers can walk in that transforms him. He is now dead and walks in newness of life. This new man can also do "works" that merit further blessing. (Again, only by the goodness of God.) We have a choice to do them. God rewards His family for doing this.

It's not saying, "I've got it from here!" or, "Grace got me in the door, and I'll take it from here!" Never! It takes yielding to His Lordship in order to enter into Him, AND to abide in Him. I know that all believers do not recognize this, but you do not ALWAYS abide in Him. But when you do, you are yielding and believing, working in the love of God, in the rest of God. It is not accomplished without humility. So to imply (actually state) that believers walking in the light lack humility because they don't call themselves "unworthy" is wrong.

That is putting a "religious" gate or requirement on receiving His grace that isn't really there. There is much there on humility, you've deduced from several isolated verses that a doctrine requiring acknowledment of unworthiness is appropriate (necessary to receive grace).

So why are all of these believers walking in the light, receiving the blessing and grace of God not passing in through the gate you've erected? If this failure to acknowledge unworthiness at the root level exists, why do believers receive from God as they do?

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Does anyone have any scripture where Jesus instructed anyone to use their voice to speak what they want into existence? Instead of being in prayer to the Father for hours and hours, why didn't Jesus just use a word of faith? Did Jesus not have faith?

What about when Jesus prayed the Lord's prayer and said 'thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven'. Does WOF promote the will of God being done through us or that we want to control what is done and not necessarily the Lord's agenda.

Using the word 'blessing' makes it seem that what they are receiving is according to God's will, but they are using their own power to determine what is happening in their own lives. A blessing is something that God chooses to bestow.

 

[Alive_Again]

Good question.

Does anyone have any scripture where Jesus instructed anyone to use their voice to speak what they want into existence?

First off, it should be said that Jesus only did the will of the Father. Jesus did what He told us to do. He asked. It is the prerogative of a King to decree and establish. He is the King of Kings.

I believe Jesus prayed (maybe even days before) before He issued to command for Lazarus to come forth. We don't have record of Him asking. God spoke everything into being with His Word. I'm sure there are a number of other examples in the Word of seeing or hearing and knowing the will of God, and just acting on it.

Instead of being in prayer to the Father for hours and hours, why didn't Jesus just use a word of faith? Did Jesus not have faith?

The voice of God brings faith. It is a surety. Jesus spoke what He heard. We're supposed to do the same. The thing is, what we "hear" are not always words our soul understands. In fact, the revelatory mind of God is not limited to "words". It can be an understanding, or a "knowing". It can be a "sight". It is not just the word of prophesy. The things you see, you can enter into agreement with your actions and words.

There are "promptings" that you step into by faith. This includes your words.

Also, we're still learning the voice of the Lord and seeking to become mature believers. There is a learning process where God encourages His children to step out (even at the risk of making mistakes). People take issue because they "see" and speak forth that which they believe is God.

What about when Jesus prayed the Lord's prayer and said 'thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven'. Does WOF promote the will of God being done through us or that we want to control what is done and not necessarily the Lord's agenda.

This is the common perception people attach to those who risk stepping forward in what they've been shown and entering in. Isn't giving one the benefit of the doubt the way of love?

Using the word 'blessing' makes it seem that what they are receiving is according to God's will, but they are using their own power to determine what is happening in their own lives. A blessing is something that God chooses to bestow.

There is a provision (inheritance) available to all God's children. Even though we're not under the Law of Moses, we're still under tutors (kind of a form of law) until we learn to walk in the Spirit. A big part of the actual walk of faith is to incline and hear and do. You can only walk in that which you are shown. It's already yours. He's waiting for us to enter into it.

People WILL make mistakes. People are learning the voice of the Lord. They are learning to rise up and enter in. It is the accuser of the brethren that would also rise up and have them question childlike faith. We must be careful not to speak after those attributes and become a tool of the enemy.

All things that pertain to life and godliness...
All spiritual blessings in Heavenly places...
The Father told His oldest son, all things were His...
A land flowing with milk and honey is the inheritance of the believer...
Whatsoever things ye desire (if you abide) when ye pray...

As for using your "own power" because you might use your mouth to decree and establish is not using your "own" power. We don't have any. Jesus said "You can do nothing without Me.". Each believer must yield their lives and abide to see God's desires within us and to see them accomplished by believing. It is up to the family of God to give each one of us the benefit of the doubt and not attribute the flesh or the enemy for attempting to walk in godly precepts.

Yes, some things look like blessings and seem to be from God becaue we seem to "need them". Some jobs or money, or companionship seems to be of God, but it is not. It is to use wisdom and judgment to ascertain what comes as being from God and what is from the devil.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Good question.


First off, it should be said that Jesus only did the will of the Father. Jesus did what He told us to do. He asked. It is the prerogative of a King to decree and establish. He is the King of Kings.

I believe Jesus prayed (maybe even days before) before He issued to command for Lazarus to come forth. We don't have record of Him asking. God spoke everything into being with His Word. I'm sure there are a number of other examples in the Word of seeing or hearing and knowing the will of God, and just acting on it.


The voice of God brings faith. It is a surety. Jesus spoke what He heard. We're supposed to do the same. The thing is, what we "hear" are not always words our soul understands. In fact, the revelatory mind of God is not limited to "words". It can be an understanding, or a "knowing". It can be a "sight". It is not just the word of prophesy. The things you see, you can enter into agreement with your actions and words.

There are "promptings" that you step into by faith. This includes your words.

Also, we're still learning the voice of the Lord and seeking to become mature believers. There is a learning process where God encourages His children to step out (even at the risk of making mistakes). People take issue because they "see" and speak forth that which they believe is God.

This is the common perception people attach to those who risk stepping forward in what they've been shown and entering in. Isn't giving one the benefit of the doubt the way of love?



There is a provision (inheritance) available to all God's children. Even though we're not under the Law of Moses, we're still under tutors (kind of a form of law) until we learn to walk in the Spirit. A big part of the actual walk of faith is to incline and hear and do. You can only walk in that which you are shown. It's already yours. He's waiting for us to enter into it.

People WILL make mistakes. People are learning the voice of the Lord. They are learning to rise up and enter in. It is the accuser of the brethren that would also rise up and have them question childlike faith. We must be careful not to speak after those attributes and become a tool of the enemy.

All things that pertain to life and godliness...
All spiritual blessings in Heavenly places...
The Father told His oldest son, all things were His...
A land flowing with milk and honey is the inheritance of the believer...
Whatsoever things ye desire (if you abide) when ye pray...

As for using your "own power" because you might use your mouth to decree and establish is not using your "own" power. We don't have any. Jesus said "You can do nothing without Me.". Each believer must yield their lives and abide to see God's desires within us and to see them accomplished by believing. It is up to the family of God to give each one of us the benefit of the doubt and not attribute the flesh or the enemy for attempting to walk in godly precepts.

Yes, some things look like blessings and seem to be from God becaue we seem to "need them". Some jobs or money, or companionship seems to be of God, but it is not. It is to use wisdom and judgment to ascertain what comes as being from God and what is from the devil.

Did I miss your reference to what Jesus said?

You know, the verses in red in your bible.

 

[Alive_Again]

Yes you did. The reference was to Jesus calling Lazarus forth. It was not apparent that He prayed. He commanded him to come forth.

He also spoke to the sea and the enemy without praying. He moved in the authority and decree of a King. That is part of the inheritance of the believer as well. But like kings in the natural, they (in their youth), must be trained or tutored. But they possess the authority according to their birthright.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Yes you did. The reference was to Jesus calling Lazarus forth. It was not apparent that He prayed. He commanded him to come forth.

He also spoke to the sea and the enemy without praying. He moved in the authority and decree of a King. That is part of the inheritance of the believer as well. But like kings in the natural, they (in their youth), must be trained or tutored. But they possess the authority according to their birthright.

Please quote the scripture itself. Jesus never told us in the bible to speak things into existence.

Im not talking about what Jesus DID. I am talking about what the bible tells US to do. We ARE NOT Jesus.

 

[now faith]

Please quote the scripture itself. Jesus never told us in the bible to speak things into existence.

Im not talking about what Jesus DID. I am talking about what the bible tells US to do. We ARE NOT Jesus.

Mark 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

 

[Alive_Again]

When the Canaanite woman came to the Lord, she was saved as she acknowledged Him as the Son of David that is The Messiah (Matthew 15: 22).

Amazing, wasn't it? He told the disciples not to tell anyone, they had to find out "on their own" based on the what their hearts heard as they heard His Words. They heard the testimonies of the children of those who believed, yet He told her outright! A Canaanite!

She went further to worship Him (Matt 15: 25). Yet the Lord expected her to “lower herself” to the level of a dog. She did (Matt 15: 27).

In the prescription of righteousness by the Law, she was a dog. She didn't have to lower herself. She did agree and appealed to the goodness of God, as a dog would her Master. She seemed to "bounce" husbands and was shacking up with another man. She was a dog.

The children are not dogs.

Hope the doctrine of faith which is used for the pursuit of financial prosperity as the top most priority by some WoF'ers not hinder their spirits from knowing the truth about humility.

Is it correct to acknowledge those believers who would put money as a "top priority"? It is not proper for any believers to put the love of money over fellowship with God?

It is not for gain that ANY believer follows the Lord. We're supposed to be thinking on things that are lovely, and of good report. It is not for us to suspect whether someone has humility. We are to extend the benefit of the doubt.

It is true that she could have been offended for being called a "dog", but she did have faith in the mercy of God.

 

[Alive_Again]

Quote: "In the prescription of righteousness by the Law, she was a dog":

Why would the Lord consider her under the prescription by the law when she acknowledged Him as the Son of David? She was regenerated in her spirit when she acknowledged Him as the Son of David, that is the Messiah.

The Lord instructed someone to present themselves to the priests as a testimony to the Law; He also told some to tithe (to those under the Law). According to the Law, you must take part in the temple sacrificial system, as He Himself did growing up. According to the Law, she worshipped at the mountain, yet the children were instructed to worship in the Temple. Their people did not observe the system God put in place.

She was also shacking up with a man she wasn't married to. She went through husbands like people do in modern times (no doubt breaking the Law). It is widely considered tha no one was born again until after the resurrection.

She did humble herself as all do who have a heart for the truth (even without saying anything). She acknowledge the "dog" thing, but is that where humility really entered in? She asked for living water, which was not available yet. Her actions indicated the proper heart-set and He knew that.

Lord responded to her and appreciated her faith as "great" not when she agreed and appealed to the goodness of God but only when she humbled herself before Him as He expected.

She did have great faith, since it was revealed that (like all Samaratins were considered), "dogs". It was a widely held belief and Jews weren't even supposed to really talk to them. The disciples questioned Him immediately about it. So if you can be held as a "dog" and still appeal to the goodness of a great God, then you do have great faith!

Quote: "The children are not dogs":

Lord missed to see such "great" faith among the children and one which was seen in this woman who "lowered herself" (Matthew 8: 10).

It's good that He did so without any adverse suspicion.

I think some sections of WoF do miss the revelation about humility. Hope they repent.

It is not the stance of Word of Faith to not adhere to and proclaim humility. Don't you think you should at least get rid of the shield if you're going to repetitively diss WOF or its members for disagreeing with you on the Statement of Faith?

Everyone will still consider you worthy of love without the shield.

You'll no doubt join the ranks of those here who openly judge WOF people for doctrine they do not agree with. It's one thing not to agree and another to consider something instrincially wicked because you imply the wrong heart condition (something you can't see) of its members.

Where do you find this in Corinthians, where it talks about the attributes of love?

 

[now faith]

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Not exactly crumbs at his feet,considering your reference to Christ was pre Resurrection.

Much in the gospels was taught before he died and ascended to the Father.

Not that the gospels are irrelevant but our objectives are to determine,the
State of grace before and after the cross and to understand Christ in ministering to the Hebrew people.

 

[now faith]

You said grace is given to the humble.

Wouldn't that be a oxymoron?

Grace being unmerited favor,do you have to merit it by being humble?

 

[now faith]

Quote: "The Lord instructed someone to present themselves to the priests as a testimony to the Law":

All healings and miracles including those in the OT were provided for on the basis of the atonement of Christ who was slain from the creation of the world. None can be healed or blessed except on the basis of His work of atonement. The same is with salvation.

Luke 7: 50: "And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace". All it takes to be saved is faith in Him as the Christ.

Martha looked forward to the "day of resurrection" but the Lord said that "He" was the resurrection and eternal life (John 11: 25). Similarly "He" is The salvation. The moment the Canaanite confessed she was saved (Rom 10: 10).

Quote: "So if you can be held as a "dog" and still appeal to the goodness of a great God, then you do have great faith!":

Humility which is the state of being humble, is not appealing to the greatness of God. Rather as the Webster's New Dictionary states, it is "to bring down in condition or rank". Thus it is to "lower oneself" before the Lord which she did.

The matter is not whether she appealed to the goodness of God or not. The matter is regarding the exact time as to when the Lord responded to her saying "great" faith. It is self evident that He did not respond to her favorably until she "lowered" herself in the manner He expected.

Quote: "imply the wrong heart condition (something you can't see) of its members":

Implying that the condition of the heart cannot be known is false. This is because words reveal the condition of the heart. True "Members" of WoF are those who not only acknowledge God's favor (in the 7500 promises) which is only half the definition of grace but who also humble themselves, which is the other half of grace. (Grace = Favor to the unworthy).

Moreover, true "members" do not pursue prosperity with an an inverted priority that is, inappropriately use the doctrine of faith for self-centered motives of financial / material prosperity over the spiritual prosperity.

Grace is given to the humble. The Lord expected people to lower themselves before Him not because of their state of sinfulness but owing to the reverence that a person ought to have as a creature before Him who is the Creator and which was seen in the Canaanite and the Centurion.

Prosperity is good. I teach and preach WoF as an ordained minister, but WoF starts with a healthy reverence followed by a Biblical priority regarding prosperity.

Regardless of the innumerable positions, promotions and ranks a creature has (as given by the Creator, by His grace), they do not make a creature "worthy" before the Creator so as to refrain from kneeling, prostrating, lay down the crown and worship the Son of God.

OK gotta use your quote:

The ranks and promotions by the creator?

That would make God a respecter of persons.

He was not yet slain,but was predestined to be.

Christ blood was not shed in bulls nor goats.

None of the events of the old testament shed his blood,but it was a for shadow of what he would do.

The pass over was lambs blood,yet the marking
On the door formed a cross.

The people looked on the serpent lifted up and lived
But it was not Christ on the cross the were looking at.

If your statement would be taken literally,salvation for the Gentiles or the passion would never existed.

 

[now faith]

Once again I ask,why is a Word of Faith teacher,debating

Word of Faith doctrine in a debate forum,intended for non Word of Faith to debate and contradict
Word of Faith?
Can we reason this or not?

 

[Alive_Again]

All healings and miracles including those in the OT were provided for on the basis of the atonement of Christ who was slain from the creation of the world. None can be healed or blessed except on the basis of His work of atonement. The same is with salvation.

It's very easy to see it that way. I'd like to think so too, since Jesus fulfilled the Isaiah scripture before He died.

At the same time, we have an instance where Jesus instructed one cleansed to present themselves to the priests, as a testimony to the Law of Moses. They actually had healing in the Old Covenant. The presentation, was following the established order concerning cleansings of this nature.

Not that this matters too much, and I LOVE discussing things such as this, searching out the Word. I do HATE arguing about things that don't matter.

Jesus said it was the woman's faith that saved her, not her humility. You like to read that into the scriptures in a number of places. It's like splitting hairs ultimately, because if one is to approach God, there HAS to be humility. But the proper humility, not a false admission of being a re-made creature in His image that somehow falls short. It's as though God made a mistake (which He didn't). Of course, if there is sin involved, that is different.

Dead men don't have issues. One can assume if they're seeking the blessing of God that they actually HAVE humility. To assume otherwise for any reason is to deny them their right in agape love from the brethren.

You keep coming back to "those" in WOF who (miss the mark somehow). "Those" who miss the mark are not what we're presenting in WOF, and it's legitimacy doctrinally. We don't promote mistakes. They are not a good representation of "what is".

Many with judgmental spirits always point to the ditch when it comes to Word of Faith. That's like me pointing to your (physical) brother and implying that his mistakes are yours. That somehow your philosophy or doctrinal inclinations are somehow tainted because of the actions of "others'.

As I've stated early in this thread, if you want to know if "Word of Faith" is sound doctrine, actually examine the doctrine, not the mistakes (or implied mistakes) of others. Look at the precepts.

But lacking any real ammunition, people just point at ditches as though it has any relevance to the discussion. Sure, people make mistakes and people have bad motives at times.

One could point to the mistakes of Peter and Paul as examples of why Christianity is not the truth. It is not the mistakes of these men that define them. The "Hall of Faith" in Hebrews has plenty that made horrible mistakes, yet God remembers their successes.

Implying that the condition of the heart cannot be known is false. This is because words reveal the condition of the heart.

You're reading more into the words than are really there. To bypass humility would be folly. But you insist on coming back to it (implied problem areas). That's always a sure sign of an encampment.

So, back to the WOF SOF, just because it's so out of order to continually harp against WOF, the WOF SOF, or "some in WOF" (displaying the icon), when you know it generates strife. Are you going to persist? I know you're better than this.

Regardless of the innumerable positions, promotions and ranks a creature has (as given by the Creator, by His grace), they do not make a creature "worthy" before the Creator so as to refrain from kneeling, prostrating, lay down the crown and worship the Son of God.

I'll say it again, so there is no controversy. Position does not make you worthy. He (re)made you by the Spirit of God and the Blood of Jesus, worthy to approach the Throne of Grace. Nowhere along the way is there any place for pride. No one would refrain from proper worship.

This is not about making a show in front of someone so that they approve. Matters of the heart are between an individual and God.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Quote: "
Just like stating the altitude of a peak without reference to the mean sea level makes no sense, worship which is an expression of faith in His grace, makes no sense without expressing our creature status (or level) before the Son of God who is the Creator. Yes, we thank our Lord for making us "co-heirs", "children" etc but do they affect or change our creature-status before the Son of God?

Another tenant of the WOF movement is the 'ye are little gods' statements. Although some believe that there are only one or two preachers who use this phrase, that is very incorrect.

We are co-heirs with Christ in the Father. This is very different from 'little gods'.

This is one of the basic tenants of the Word of Faith movement and should be discussed as part of this belief system.

 

[Alive_Again]

Is humility a work of the flesh / work of the law OR humility an expression of faith in His grace?

Just like you teach about faith confession which I do as well both to believers
and unbelievers in the gospel campaigns, I additionally express truths on humility which is an expression of faith in His grace. This is because grace is given to the humble.

Humility is actually a beautiful thing and not to be discouraged. Moses was said to be the most humble man on the earth, in his time. In the beginning, he did recognize his weakness of speech, even though God didn't cite it as something to be concerned about.

If you look at some of His words, when speaking of himself and what he was called to do, he really didn't point to himself. He spoke of God. When he spoke to Pharaoh (whom he knew well), he didn't introduce himself as one who was unworthy before God. He simply said what God said. You might say that he wasn't speaking to God, but he represented God as His prophet. There was no real place for interjecting himself into the "mix".

Of course Jesus never came down on anyone for even seeing themselves (i.e., Peter who acknowledged he was a sinful man). He didn't "correct' Peter, even though Peter was correct in what he said. He looked past all that. With the Lord, there usually isn't a looking at oneself in the conversation, unless sin is involved.

That's kind of where WOF is on this discussion. It isn't about not being humble. It's about not pointing to yourself anymore. It's more "being strong in faith (in His goodness and grace), giving glory to God, than it is, "Before we start, I am unworthy". It's humility, in the sense that it looks past yourself and just sees Him thankfully. (That's the idea anyway.)

The same holds good for faith confessions but somehow do you believe that it is essential to promote that at the expense of expressing ideas on humility?

You can promote humility all you want. It's a good thing. It shouldn't be made to look bad though because of implications that certain parties lack it, because of their take on doctrine (really the entire congregation). Humility is built right in, it's just not pointing at yourself. It's acknowledging the new man.

IMHO you have apparently bypassed humility by believing that humility is shown ONLY by expressing the goodness of God and not in acknowledging both in the heart and by words that we are unworthy as creatures before the Creator.

This is what I mean! "You have apparently bypassed humility" -- because: "you don't see it my way". That's the ugly part. It's built right into the SOF, not because WOF people aren't humble (hard to believe we're even having this discussion!), but because of Who we're looking at instead of ourselves.

It goes right back to the SOF. This is where the issue lies. You judge the part in there about "not being unworthy creatures" as a lack of humility. As long as that statement is written in the congregation SOF, it appears you'll have an issue with it, and the people in it (for judging their hearts about having a lack of humility.)

Faith confessions ought not to be just used for pursuing material / financial prosperity. Prosperity ought to follow a true reverence for the Son of God. Only then, the non-WoF'ers would be able appreciate the WoF movement.

Now we're back to this again. Why "pursue" material or financial property? That's not the call. It's a benefit by grace. It's not to be pursued. If any element of confession is in it, it's because we're agreeing with the gospel of the kingdom.

Most "non-WOF" people don't appreciate the movement (really just a believing God movement) because they either see the mistakes of others, or they don't understand what is really being preached. When something is said, they usually hear something else. It happens to all of us in various areas of our lives.

As someone once said, "What you heard if not what I said."

Usually once the balance is presented, many people go, "Oh! I'm on board with that aspect of it." -- Assuming any preceeding precepts are already in place.

We went on a little bit ago about where the instruction to speak things into being (so to speak) came from. Most of that is established in foundational precepts that are obvious in the Word (authority in Christ coupled with prophetic expression). If you don't recognize them, that usually means that they are not established yet in the heart of that person.

 

[now faith]

Quote: "Not exactly crumbs at his feet,considering your reference to Christ was pre Resurrection.Much in the gospels was taught before he died and ascended to the Father":

Was the book of Revelations which shows accounts of His people laying their crowns and worshiping Him a pre-resurrection event?

God's people can see one of the ideas being stated under a WoF icon, from the statement in quote, where reverence for God is apparently missing.

Quote: You said grace is given to the humble.Wouldn't that be a oxymoron?Grace being unmerited favor,do you have to merit it by being humble?

Do some ideas being stated in the name of WoF even make the Biblical truths appear as oxymorons? Is humility a work of the flesh and work of the law? OR, is humility an expression of faith in His grace?

Quote: "The ranks and promotions by the creator? That would make God a respecter of persons":
Rom 9: 15: "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion". Hope you exercise faith in His grace and mercy which are favors shown to the unworthy (merit=worth; unmerited favor=favor shown to the unworthy).

The Centurion and the Canaanite humbled themselves or lowered themselves before the Creator not because of their sinfulness but because they believed they were creatures as do the saints in heaven. True WoF is one which believes both the favor of the Lord (seen in the 7500 promises) and the truth of unworthiness of a creature before the Creator.

WoF teacher teaches true WoF doctrines and is thereby not debating true WoF doctrines. The WoF teacher is expressing ideas about a false doctrine which compromises on the necessity of humility of a creature before the Creator.

Do we make profound statement's then build giant straw men to cover them?

 

[Alive_Again]

When something is said, they usually hear something else. It happens to all of us in various areas of our lives.

As someone once said, "What you heard if not what I said."

Usually once the balance is presented, many people go, "Oh! I'm on board with that aspect of it." -- Assuming any preceding precepts are already in place.

When many believers hear the term, "Mary, the Mother of God", they (you, me) probably rise up instantly to protest. We KNOW that God pre-existed LONG before Mary came anywhere near this world. We know that she's a woman, like all of the rest. She was highly favored and birthed Jesus, Who is the Word of God made flesh. She birthed Jesus, the Son of God, who is "God the Son". In the sense they mean it, they are technically correct.

Yet every time I hear it, something in me rises up to protest (even though I know what they mean). That's because Catholics have many doctrines that are highly presumptuous. They believe they're the only ones really doing it right, and that no one can be blessed like a Catholic because of this. Yet miracles are taking place in churches all over the world (and they're not Catholic).

I don't want to offend any Catholics, because they have their part in the scheme of things. There's no Catholics or Protestants in Heaven. There's the family of God without partiality and that's it! Whoever abides in Him will be blessed in Him and whatever is tacked on by man inhibits the blessing because God doesn't bless what isn't of Him.

Back to the point: People hear "Mary, Mother of God" and even though they're not claiming something that isn't correct, walls around cities with moats "fire up the watchmen" because the threat of "heresy" lurks near!

The same thing takes place with certain bywords among believers. One of those words is "dominion" or "dominionism". "So and so" over there says God's gonna move mightily on the earth and he was connected to that revival over there, where the devil got involved! So and so is outside of our little box, and we're not gonna have it! "I've been around for 40 years in church and I never!"

Sound the alarm! "Mary, Mother of God!" Time to break out the swords! Let's take some people down!

How about "Word of Faith"?

Here's another... How about "ye are gods"? --- Before I continue this discussion in another message, remember Jesus was the One talking (calm down!). He added for emphasis, "And the scripture cannot be broken!"

Got yer watchmen on the wall with their spears? Let's get it on!

 

[Alive_Again]

Funny we're talking about this. This subject was on my mind yesterday, and it seemed obvious that it would come up.

It might as well be "Thou blasphemest!"

I'll do the first part containing the verses and the Hebrew/Greek first.

God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. I have said, Ye are gods<H430>; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations
Psalms 82:1-8

<H430>elohim

English Words used in KJV:
God 2346
god 244
judge 5
GOD 1
goddess 2
great 2
mighty 2
angels 1
exceeding 1
God-ward + <H4136> 1
godly 1
[Total Count: 2606]

plural of <H433> ('elowahh); gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative :- angels, × exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), × (very) great, judges, × mighty.

—Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods<G2316>? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
John 10:34-38

<G2316>theos

Root: of uncertain affinity, a deity, especially (with <G3588>) the supreme Divinity
—Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary

English Words used in KJV:
God 1320
god 13
godly 3
God-ward + <G4214> 2
miscellaneous translations 5
[Total Count: 1343]

of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with <G3588> (ho)) the supreme Divinity; figurative a magistrate; by Hebrew very :- × exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

—Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary