Women Priests

[Love365]

Some churches have started making women priests.

Why is this seen as political?

 

[PloverWing]

I'm not sure. In a place like the UK, where the Church of England is established, changes to the established church are, to some extent, changes to government policy. But in places like the US, where no religion is established, decisions about clergy and church structure are (by design) quite separate from government policy.

Sometimes, people use the word "political" when what they mean is "controversial". That's an unfortunately confusing use of the word.

Do you see the ordination of women as political? If so, why do you see it that way?

 

[Love365]

In the 1920s countries started giving women the right to vote.

Women started entering the workforce between 1920 and 1970.
Women were allowed to have the same jobs as men.

 

[PloverWing]

How about this: Both the politics and the ecclesiastical changes grew out of a cultural change. Culturally, people were starting to see women as full human beings, deserving of the same rights and responsibilities as men. Politically, this cultural change was expressed in the belief that women should be able to vote and should be protected by law from discrimination in the workplace. In the church, this cultural change was expressed in the belief that women should be permitted to be priests, vestry members, altar servers, and so on. And there were cultural changes that were neither political nor religious; for example, in the 20th century, women began to be admitted to some elite private universities that had previously been men-only.

I wish I could say that the church was the driving force in the women's movements of the 19th and 20th centuries, that the church listened to Jesus saying "Love your neighbor as yourself" and went out and changed the world. There was some of that. The Society of Friends is notable here, for example. But there was also strong resistance to women's equality from many in the Christian churches. For a couple of decades there, in my young adult years, I saw women's civil rights legislation getting passed, with enthusiastic support from some Christians, while other Christians resisted mightily. Possibly, those resistant Christians experienced it as the government imposing women's equality on them, when they didn't want to grant that equality. If that was their experience, perhaps they see this aspect of human rights as "political". (Is that, perhaps, what you have in mind?) But the push for human rights didn't start with politics, it started with culture; and some of that cultural shift was, in fact, inspired by the teachings of Jesus.

 

[Love365]

What is the polling like?

Do most people support making women priests?

 

[PloverWing]

What is the polling like?

Do most people support making women priests?

It depends on what group you're polling. Most Episcopalians do. Many Anglicans in other countries do not. The Catholic hierarchy does not, but I think Catholic laity may be divided in opinion. The Presbyterians are divided in opinion, though they don't call their clergy "priests".

What do you have in mind with the question? Are you asking whether lay people in churches agree with the decisions their church leaders are making in regards to women's ordination?

 

[Love365]

The Church of England has women priests and women bishops.

Why doesn’t the BBC make more movies and TV shows about them?

 

[PloverWing]

The Vicar of Dibley comes to mind, but I don't know offhand if there are other examples. I only see a small selection of what the BBC produces; maybe one of our British CF-ers can chime in here.

Here in the US, it's unfortunately rare to see religion of any kind portrayed accurately. Sometimes religious people are portrayed as two-dimensional, with strangely awkward dialogue, and negatively, ranging from irritating and insensitive to actively villanous. Sometimes religion is portrayed as blandly generic, so people gather at "Main Street Community Church" or something similarly nondescript. Most often, religion just doesn't show up at all. Maybe TV producers are afraid of offending anyone by mentioning any religion, or maybe the TV writers don't know any religious people and don't know how to write for them.

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

Some churches have started making women priests.

Why is this seen as political?

Because in the history of the Church it's novel and the enactment of policy is a reflection of the cultural zeitgeist. So when people refer to it being political they mean in as much as it is cultural. It's the same thing with identity politics. When people disagree with the pervasiveness of identity politics they don't necessarily disagree with specific legislation, they disagree with the cultural tribalism that enforces it's view of morality on others.
So people can't help but draw parallels to the politics that came about during the same time.

Also it's called politics because it's all based on secular morality. If we for example push our morality on others it's equated with religion, not politics. That distinction doesn't exist in a society that has unhitched it's morality from a transcendent source and therefore the only paradigm it fits within is political.

 

[Love365]

John the Baptist baptized Jesus.

Mary of Bethany anointed Jesus with holy oil.

 

[FireDragon76]

Women have been ministers in large mainline churches in the US since before I was born, and I just turned 47 a short while ago. As far as I'm concerned, women serving as clergy are perfectly normal, and not some recent innovation.

And women serving informally in ministry is nothing new. John Wesley authorized Sarah Crosby to preach to a mixed audience in England in 1761.

 

[XianGoth1334]

I am all for women priests / clergy / etc. I recall with fondness reading "When Women Were Priests" by Karen Jo Torjesen.

 

[Love365]

Do most Democrats support making women priests?

 

[PloverWing]

Do most Democrats support making women priests?

There might be a correlation, since I would expect a correlation between support of women's equality and support for women in the priesthood, and I'd also expect a correlation between support of women's equality and voting Democrat. But I'd be cautious about the prediction, in two directions: 1) Politics is not theology. You could easily support things like school vouchers and lower tax rates (traditional Republican positions) and also support women in the priesthood. 2) Some Democrats aren't Christian, and I suspect that Democrats who are Hindu or atheist don't care about our holy orders at all.

I think it's better to look at people's theological position, rather than their political party. If you think that "love your neighbor as yourself" can be interpreted different ways in different cultures, and that we're free to apply it differently now than it was applied in the time of the Roman Empire, then you're more likely to support women in the priesthood. Alternatively, if you think that it's important to preserve the gender-hierarchy elements of the Bronze Age, Iron Age, and Roman cultures because those were the cultures in which the revelation of Scripture was given to us, and you don't want to risk losing any important element of that revelation, then you're more likely to support a male-only priesthood. As we've noted in previous posts, mainline Protestants and some Evangelicals tend to go with the former approach, while Catholics, Orthodox, and some Evangelicals tend to go with the latter approach.

 

[Love365]

Do most Libertarians support making women priests?

 

[Paidiske]

I would suspect libertarians would be wary of church hierarchy, in general.

 

[Love365]

I bet they would support making women priests.

 

[FireDragon76]

I would suspect libertarians would be wary of church hierarchy, in general.

Libertarians in the US now days are more commonly just American paleoconservatives that are a little less moralistic than some of their Christian fundamentalist peers more tightly aligned with the Republican party. Many are also irreligious, and are predominantly male.

 

[FireDragon76]

There might be a correlation, since I would expect a correlation between support of women's equality and support for women in the priesthood, and I'd also expect a correlation between support of women's equality and voting Democrat. But I'd be cautious about the prediction, in two directions: 1) Politics is not theology. You could easily support things like school vouchers and lower tax rates (traditional Republican positions) and also support women in the priesthood. 2) Some Democrats aren't Christian, and I suspect that Democrats who are Hindu or atheist don't care about our holy orders at all.

I think it's better to look at people's theological position, rather than their political party. If you think that "love your neighbor as yourself" can be interpreted different ways in different cultures, and that we're free to apply it differently now than it was applied in the time of the Roman Empire, then you're more likely to support women in the priesthood. Alternatively, if you think that it's important to preserve the gender-hierarchy elements of the Bronze Age, Iron Age, and Roman cultures because those were the cultures in which the revelation of Scripture was given to us, and you don't want to risk losing any important element of that revelation, then you're more likely to support a male-only priesthood. As we've noted in previous posts, mainline Protestants and some Evangelicals tend to go with the former approach, while Catholics, Orthodox, and some Evangelicals tend to go with the latter approach.

You can find alot of Roman Catholics and Orthodox that traditionally voted Democrat, and neither group traditionally ordains women to the priesthood. Also, some historic black churches don't ordain women, either.

 

[Love365]

We need more TV shows with women priests.