will the political and cultural shift in the US impact mainline churches?

FireDragon76

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It seems like the US politically and culturally is moving away from the default consensual trust in managerial elites, and that progressivism has been revealed as not being so privileged culturally. Will this impact the politics of mainline churches in the US at the national level, where the agenda has been driven heavily by the interests of these elites? Or will they become reactionary and entrenched?
 

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It seems like the US politically and culturally is moving away from the default consensual trust in managerial elites, and that progressivism has been revealed as not being so privileged culturally. Will this impact the politics of mainline churches in the US at the national level, where the agenda has been driven heavily by the interests of these elites? Or will they become reactionary and entrenched?
Who are you talking about? Members of congregations or members of the clergy? For the past decade multitudes of congregation members have left organized religion already having recognized the limited impact on their discipleship in Christ for home groups or other alternatives. Members of the business called clergy have already been heavily influenced by since the 1930's when the Rockefellers began their ecumenical movement as documented by Gregg Singer in his book, "Unholy Alliance".
 
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hedrick

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I don't think there's that much change in the population. Trump won an election, but the people who voted for him were there all along. I don't think belief in inerrancy, rejection of scientific accounts of origins, etc, is growing. Remember, a plurality of voters actually voted for Clinton. Having a whole government made of people who deny climate change, evolution, and make irrational decisions doesn't indicate any decline of elites.

Actually it indicates a conservative elite that's managed to manipulate the system. Removing regulations to protect us against big business is the act of an elite. (How in the world can you spin
removing a rule that requires investment advisors to give priority to their clients interest as somehow good for clients?) And with new moves towards voter suppression, and a census coming up with new opportunities for gerrymandering, it may get worse.

My big worry is that more people are going to give up and not bother voting.
 
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FireDragon76

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I don't think there's that much change in the population.

Of course not, but like we have been talking about in one of the politics threads by a former self-professed SJW, there has been a shift in the population over the perception that political correctness is the only acceptable discourse. Obviously, it isn't anymore. If Democrats want to win elections in the future they are going to have to acknowledge that not everybody is driven by those issues.

And I think, maybe our churches should take note too. I know in the ELCA alot of money is diverted from general missions into pet projects defined by the political correctness of the day. And quota systems are used heavily at all levels of the church hierarchy. Perhaps our church hierarchy should stop feeling guilty about being a church that is 95% white, and just accept that one can be a "historically white church" without necessarily being exclusionary.

The newest hymnal is especially defined by this elitist, politically correct agenda. Our church didn't even bother buying them. Half the old hymns in it have been butchered in one way or another, some excluded altogether.

Actually it indicates a conservative elite that's managed to manipulate the system.

Trump was a maverick, though, which is why he was even taken seriously by the electorate. He's got some conservatives just as worried as the liberals.

My big worry is that more people are going to give up and not bother voting.

I hope not. I actually hope maybe Trump will be good in the long run. But it's not going to be pretty or painless right away. The Democrats need to change how they do business.
 
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hedrick

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Of course not, but like we have been talking about in one of the politics threads by a former self-professed SJW, there has been a shift in the population over the perception that political correctness is the only acceptable discourse. Obviously, it isn't anymore. If Democrats want to win elections in the future they are going to have to acknowledge that not everybody is driven by those issues.

I think the
influence of "political correctness" is exaggerated. Indeed I think the term is basically a propaganda item, which lets people imply that others are taking positions just because they're brainwashed into it by liberal elites. As if conservatives didn't have a strong cultural bias pushing them as well. The fact is, we're all influenced by our culture, whether it's conservative or progressive. And there are just as many elites pushing the conservative agenda.

There are many people who believe in acceptance of various groups without being coerced by political correctness. Episodes of oversensitivity make national headlines, but it's not so clear how common it is. I think there's a consensus among university faculty (and I speak as someone who works there) that we shouldn't be protecting students against ideas that they find uncomfortable. The few demands to be more protective are unusual enough to generate the headlines about political correctness.

I do agree that too much of Obama's focus was on pushing acceptance of various minorities. I think he was right in all of his positions, but it made it look like he didn't care about anyone else. But it's hard to know how much of that was the tendency of the press to cover the most sensational items. Whatever the reality, Democrats allowed it to look like their focus was on the rights of a few groups.

It will be interesting to see how this develops over time. I teach 7th and 8th grade Sunday School class. My kids simply don't see these things as issues. They had a transgender kid in school. No one thought anything was odd about it, and no one cared which bathroom they used. It's virtually impossible to generate any kind of discussion on gender and sexual issues with them. I don't think things are moving in a conservative direction at all, nor do surveys by age group suggest that.
 
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hedrick

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The newest hymnal is especially defined by this elitist, politically correct agenda. Our church didn't even bother buying them. Half the old hymns in it have been butchered in one way or another, some excluded altogether.

I'm wondering whether the ELCA is different than the PCUSA. On this and other items you mentioned. Our new hymnbook is wonderful. We did the non-sexist thing decades ago, but it was done pretty carefully. God is still called Father, for example.
 
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FireDragon76

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I'm wondering whether the ELCA is different than the PCUSA. On this and other items you mentioned. Our new hymnbook is wonderful. We did the non-sexist thing decades ago, but it was done pretty carefully. God is still called Father, for example.

Just an example, but one of my favorite hymns, "Praise my soul, the King of Heaven", gets a very rough treatment leaving it unrecognizable. Also, ditch anything with "soldier" in it and replace it with something else. It's very elitist type stuff that is very much at odds with the Lutheran tradition's acceptance of military service as an honorable vocation.

And the Aaronic benediction is even changed in a way that just sounds goofy. That's a problem with alot of the prayers. My pastor has the habit of just ad-libbing over them. We use the older psaltry for sure, because the newer one takes a lot of liberties with the biblical text.

When the pastor is preaching or the secretary gives her children's church sermon, God is always referred to as "Father" or the pronoun "he" is used, but the national church seems to be wanting to push everybody away from that sort of language. Even though it seems most people in the pews don't actually talk that way about God.
 
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hedrick

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Just an example, but one of my favorite hymns, "Praise my soul, the King of Heaven", gets a very rough treatment leaving it unrecognizable. Also, ditch anything with "soldier" in it and replace it with something else. It's very elitist type stuff that is very much at odds with the Lutheran tradition's acceptance of military service as an honorable vocation.

And the Aaronic benediction is even changed in a way that just sounds goofy. That's a problem with alot of the prayers. My pastor has the habit of just ad-libbing over them. We use the older psaltry for sure, because the newer one takes a lot of liberties with the biblical text.

When the pastor is preaching or the secretary gives her children's church sermon, God is always referred to as "Father" or the pronoun "he" is used, but the national church seems to be wanting to push everybody away from that sort of language. Even though it seems most people in the pews don't actually talk that way about God.
I don't see that kind of thing. I just looked up "Praise my soul" in our hymnal, and looks normal to me. We don't have "Onward Christian Soldiers," but looking at the words it's not something I'd be interested in. It also has little to do with respecting people in the military service, since it's using soldiers metaphorically. I'm not sure precisely what hymns would do that, but I note that we have the Navy Hymn, though we don't have the all-services version. I'm not sure what would be associated with other services.
 
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FireDragon76

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I don't see that kind of thing. I just looked up "Praise my soul" in our hymnal, and looks normal to me. We don't have "Onward Christian Soldiers," but looking at the words it's not something I'd be interested in. It also has little to do with respecting people in the military service, since it's using soldiers metaphorically. I'm not sure precisely what hymns would do that, but I note that we have the Navy Hymn, though we don't have the all-services version. I'm not sure what would be associated with other services.

Look at other hymns such as "For all the Saints".

I got an older ELCA hymnal (Lutheran Book of Worship) at a used bookshop, the same edition as the one we use at church (sixth edition) and just looking over it, the word "soldier" or "soldiering" is used in several hymns.

It would be a trivial point if this were like in the 80's or 90's when many churches recognized that "man" doesn't necessarily cover both men and women, but it seems it's gone beyond that into matters that challenge traditional spirituality (even changing the translation of the second article of the Nicene Creed to "became truly human", which is a potentially accurate translation of the Greek but potentially also glosses over the particularity of the incarnation). As near as I can tell these things are not being driven by demand in the pews, but by the perception of elites.

So that's what I mean by people potentially resenting the preferences of the elite. But unlike in politics, in churches people potentially vote with their feet. A great deal of the mainline decline could be due to ineffective use of money in missions and wasting time talking about perspectives on issues that the average churchgoer either finds objectionable or irrelevant. The default perception of the elite is that those who disagree are simply ignorant, bigoted, or backwards ("deplorables"?). It's the sort of thing that lead to the current political problems in the wider culture.
 
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hedrick

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Look at other hymns such as "For all the Saints".
There's warfare in our version. Sorry if the ELCA has gone too far. The most I've noticed in our hymnal is an occasional change of a word to a more inclusive form.

"and became human" seems to be from the English Language Liturgical Commission. I believe ἐνανθρωπήσαντα means became human. My Greek dictionaries are from NT, but the root is anthropos, which is generic, and an online Greek-Spanish dictionary I found says 1. tomar forma humana ψυχὴ ἐνανθρωπήσασα un alma revestida de forma humana de un recién nacido, Hld.2.31.1, 2. crist. encarnarse, hacerse hombre. (Google translates it to "enanthropisanta." Thanks for that.) ἐνανθρωπέω says ἐνανθρωπέω (Heliod. 2, 31, 1 ψυχὴ ἐνανθρωπήσασα; Etym. Gud. 467, 2; patristic usage, Lampe s.v.) take on human form 1J 4:17 v.l.—DELG s.v. ἄνθρωπος. ενανθρώπησα says put on man's nature: aor ind act 1st sg (homeric ionic )

The Latin is et homo
factus est. The references I checked say that homo is human, compared with vir, which is male human.

If this is right, it's "became man" that is misleading, because the English has more specificity than the Greek.
 
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FireDragon76

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There's warfare in our version. Sorry if the ELCA has gone too far. The most I've noticed in our hymnal is an occasional change of a word to a more inclusive form.

I wonder if it's due to differences in culture between Lutherans and Presbyterians, esp. in light of the regulative principle. For Lutheran theology, the confessions weigh a great deal. There is a certain school of Lutheran theology that is critiqued for reducing everything to a matter of Law and Gospel as an operative principle to do all theology and praxis. The Incarnation and particularity of the Christian story is not so important to them so much as the psychological effect of the Gospel. Critique it and you'ld better beware of being called a "pietist", which is a dirty word apparently in Lutheran circles. I think it's nonsense but that's one of the foibles of the Lutheran approach to Christianity, the focus on scholasticism has always tended to dominate (during Lent I'm actually doing some reading on Lutheran Pietism as a counterpoint).

There is a certain desire of some in the ELCA leadership towards centralization and more of a "mainline Protestant" focus (similar to what you find in the United Church of Christ or Unitarian-Universalists). Most of them are operating with the sort of corrosive hermeneutic I mentioned earlier.

"and became human" seems to be from the English Language Liturgical Commission. I believe ἐνανθρωπήσαντα means became human

Yeah, it's technically correct. It's just different from the translation most English-speaking Christians use. When I went to a Catholic church a year ago I couldn't even keep up with the Creed in certain parts- they have gone towards using more technical language that in some respects may be more precise but its a step away from the ecumenical consensus of the 70's. It does seem many churches have given up on that consensus and are more comfortable doing their own thing now.
 
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Striver

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I'm personally afraid we are seeing the new normal. Trench warfare with the two trenches on each side and nothing but scorched earth in between with angry, nervous eyes poking up from the trench on each side every so often.

It seems every issue is an all-or-nothing prism of the faith. This largely mirrors the culture and politics. The question for me comes in how does the conservative church deal with the openly gay man or woman who walks in the door and how does the liberal church deal with the climate denier or anti-gay marriage person who walks in the door? Seems we could all do well to remember that they're human and imago Dei, but sometimes that seems a challenge. Is there a middle ground? Seems like a lot of territory to me, but God forbid you start talking that way about those people.

There are many people who believe in acceptance of various groups without being coerced by political correctness. Episodes of oversensitivity make national headlines, but it's not so clear how common it is. I think there's a consensus among university faculty (and I speak as someone who works there) that we shouldn't be protecting students against ideas that they find uncomfortable. The few demands to be more protective are unusual enough to generate the headlines about political correctness.

Not sure if you would agree, but we have a a huge language problem these days. To a certain extent, to the victor goes the spoils but with some very good friends in the academic world - and I would add they love it - there are certain realities to student actions and treatment. I can recall, about a decade ago, going to hear a then Senator speak about his plan in Iraq. I sat feet away from him without knowing he would later become VP. I don't always agree with his politics and he was in the other party at least as it was in those days, but the atmosphere was one of respect. No hecklers, no disrespect to a sitting Senator. Ditto when a well known pundit of the other side came to speak on campus, himself not the most popular person even at that time.

Contrast with the seemingly weekly occurrences these days and there is reasonable anecdotal evidence the climate is a little different than even five or ten years ago. Without getting my buddies in trouble, some of our discussions include the selection of foreign students over domestic ones, not exactly because of diversity, but rather because of pocketbooks and wallets. These students complete their degrees and head right back home over the rejected grad working the tables at the local restaurant hoping for a better score next time. Often these things go where the money goes, and I am afraid some of the heavy professionalization of particularly the education management class is undergoing a bit of blowback. I don't think academics or managers sit around thinking about how they can force it on the masses, but I think there is credence to the concerns of someone like Jonathan Haidt about groupthink and implicit biases at work. As you said, we all have those. I would also add that you and your compatriots generally have the wisdom of life experience to not fall prey to the temptations to get too far off the path.

Everyone seems to agree that the church should look different from the culture. However, it often does not. That said, having been immersed...pun slightly intended...in Baptist spheres lately, there is just another brand of groupthink and bias at work. At times I feel stuck between theological vapidness of a SJW type on one side, and a business-growth-style mindset on the other.

It seems to be a theological I'll go play with my toys in my corner stint right now as fragmentation continues. It seems to me that simply being humble about it all would go a long way. I think our Savior may have had a few words there. That said, how can I bash others when I struggle myself?
 
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hedrick

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I'm personally afraid we are seeing the new normal. Trench warfare with the two trenches on each side and nothing but scorched earth in between with angry, nervous eyes poking up from the trench on each side every so often.
This has been true in churches for decades. Really, since the beginning of the 20th Cent. I don't see the theological difference changing that much. In politics, yes, I think it's getting worse. But modern theology and Biblical criticism lead to a very different kind of Christianity than inerrancy and a commitment to tradition in theology and ethics. It's been that way for 200 years.

Mainline churches haven't been controlled by inerrancy for 100 years. The theological implications have been there. Most of the social implications have been there. The specific ways in which they show may not have been. The role of gays and transsexuals wasn't at issue 100 years ago, but the basic decisions had been made 100 years ago that determine how we deal with it.

It seems like every generation or so the PCUSA has a battle with people who somehow think we're a conservative church that has recently turned rogue and want to restore it. I find that more than a little weird, since we haven't been a conservative church during the lifetime of any of these people.

I don't have a wide enough experience to know how conservatives are being treated everywhere. I'm sure they feel oppressed. But the fact is, we've been careful not to do to people who object to gay ordination what we did a couple of generations ago to those who objected to ordination of women. They can still exist in the church, and there are whole presbyteries with that view. There are certainly congregations with a mix of views.

In some ways I think the separation is becoming more gray. There's an increasing use of modern criticism in traditionally evangelical circles, and in the last decade or two an increasing interest in the social implications of Christianity.
 
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FireDragon76

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Lutherans never have been primarily about inerrancy. Inerrancy has always been at best, derivative and secondary. That is true even in conservative denominations like the LCMS. Which is why inerrancy did not become an issue until the 60's for us. And then it served as a proxy for opposition to other issues, particularly the desire of some in the LCMS, like the late Fr. Richard Neuhaus, to become less politically and socially quietistic.

Conservatives in mainline churches do feel oppressed. My pastor is one of those types. It is more than just about gays. They see the whole approach to their faith as increasingly being marginalized in the general conventions or synods. I recently read about a religious society my pastor mentioned, the Society of the Holy Trinity. The main reason they formed was because in the late 90's, some in the ELCA wanted to rid the entire denomination of traditional Trinitarian language in the name of multiculturalism. Which is ironic because we still have a confessional document that is among those that pastors supposedly vow to uphold, that regards the Trinity as the the catholic faith, with dire warnings if it is not believed. The catholicity of Lutheranism is under threat in the pressure to just be another liberal mainline church.

Much of the leadership in the ELCA are not very educated except in the latest faddish modern thought, and don't even know what is in our confessional documents. Years ago the ELCA invited Mennonites to celebrate the Reformation with them, unaware of the historical opposition, even antipathy at times , between Lutherans and the Anabaptist movement. But the Anabaptist leaders, to their credit, had a memory for history and more self-understanding than the ELCA, and objected.

It does seem what is new is multiculturalism's influence on the mainline churches. That is new. Technocratic elites in society believe in multiculturalism as almost a religious dogma or principle, and much of the rest of society has much more pragmatic approaches to those issues. And now they are openly skeptical of those same elites.
 
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Striver

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This has been true in churches for decades. Really, since the beginning of the 20th Cent. I don't see the theological difference changing that much. In politics, yes, I think it's getting worse. But modern theology and Biblical criticism lead to a very different kind of Christianity than inerrancy and a commitment to tradition in theology and ethics. It's been that way for 200 years.

Obviously not as apt to comment on the PCUSA history not being a member, but there is much truth in what you say from what I've seen and read from the various factions. I would think this is at least traceable through the Civil War and even earlier in American history. In some ways the theological structure and its battles parallels our political structure.

I grew up with a dose of Baptist to go along with Methodism in most of my formative years. The local UMC I attended would be mainline in almost every respect, but perhaps with limited conservative tinges. I recall taking classes at my university which was loosely Methodist affiliated and being shocked at how theologically liberal my professor was. He also happened to be (or had been) the District Superintendent. I wasn't the most sheltered child in the world, and I had some theological awareness, but I remember being absolutely astounded at some of his beliefs. When he began talking about Yahweh's consort and other details, it wasn't quite consistent with the messages I heard from my UMC pastors.

I had other professors, including the local Episcopalian priest and had the good pleasure of seeing Richard B. Hays speak (as well as chat with him) and so it's not fair to characterize me as a theological hillbilly in the city. I both learned from and got along well with other professors, which is probably an accurate representation of my moderate streak.

Inerrancy is a term that I find problematic because it doesn't really mean what it's supposed to mean. At the same time, I am not sold on some of the critical scholarship assertions that will so widely dissect passages.

It does seem what is new is multiculturalism's influence on the mainline churches. That is new. Technocratic elites in society believe in multiculturalism as almost a religious dogma or principle, and much of the rest of society has much more pragmatic approaches to those issues. And now they are openly skeptical of those same elites.

Key point here. I would say it's akin to the right's problems with patriotism and nationalism. It's okay to believe you live in a great country, but that's actually a different belief from "my country is the best to the detriment of all others." The former leads to a healthy unification of the populace, the latter becomes an unhealthy view of how things work.

I recall the popular "Coexist" bumper stickers that really seemed to be in vogue back in the mid 00s. It's not a bad message, but historically the idea has been that other faiths can exist with one another. In many circles multiculturalism became syncretism. This yields thoughts like trying to convert (I know that's a loaded term, but I mean in the reasonable sense here)another is unnecessary or even wrong. In more extreme examples, differences amongst denominations or churches are smoothed over and then it extends even to other faiths.

I don't so much care whether one is liberal or conservative at days end, but when you seek to change the doctrine, praxis, and even language to the point that it's unrecognizable, that's a problem on either side of the aisle.

I recall a recent exchange with a scholar and author of a much talked about book. The scholar is one of those guys whom I follow and seek to learn from. He has much knowledge about the black church and some of his articles have opened up my own blindspots. Just a smart man who even sorting through his Twitter feed will make you learn something let alone reading his writing.

However, he rejected the book out of hand (albeit somewhat sloppily) in a social media post because it did not address the historic black church. In one sense this was a valid criticism, but in another the logical construct he was making that any book must essentially be certified by the black Christian view/church to be fully Christian. The criticism wasn't that the book neglected the obvious example, which is more reasonable.

This is an absurd construct to me. I would never assert that something done at the local black church would need to be validated by my (mostly) white church or the fully white church down the street. Insularity is a huge issue in Christianity, but this is a criterion which doesn't hold water in a church universal that spans continents and cultures. It's the sort of faux universalism masquerading as the real thing that drives me up the wall. Of course Jesus Christ transcends cultures, but that doesn't invalidate the local flavors of expressions. If you really do desire to assert one valid culture, then we are best to look back to the original that Jesus came from. The logic on display by that scholar is simply inconsistent and a symptom of wider trends.
 
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