Why was the Priesthood Changed?

[Studyman]

Yes, a sign of covenant made with Abraham........

The carnal commands indeed have been disanulled in the new covenant. Which is inclusive of circumcision.

Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
The order of Melchizedek was not/is not according to the carnal ordinances.

Circumcision of the heart was never a carnal commandment. Taking a dead animal to a corruptible Levite Priest for forgiveness of sins, divers washings, burning meats, etc., these Priesthood “works of the law” are the “carnal commandment”.

God’s instruction in righteousness is not carnal, in spite of many of this worlds religions claim that they are.

Hebrews was speaking to the Priesthood that changed, not God’s Spiritual Holy, Just and Good laws.

 

[LW97Nils]

I asked you to see what God told David after his sin. Why not post that, and we can talk about “cover vs taken away”. When we come to Gods answer to this question, we can move on to other doctrines of this world to discern. There are many of them.

What He told him? That he is forgiven.

Still, my point on Isaiah 64:6 abides, it was for the Old Covenant. Saints were not free from the power sin back then. For Isaiah included himself.

 

[LW97Nils]

I get how important it is to justify the rejection of God’s judgment’s statutes and commandments inspired by God for the admonition of the Body of Christ, According to Paul. But I’m not going to partake in said rejection. Abraham was circumcised of the heart, which is still required to this day, before there was a “token” shown outwardly. I won’t use the token of this circumcision of the heart as justification for sin, or choosing the religious philosophies of this world over God’s judgment Jesus walked in.

I know the matter is extremely important and should be taken seriously. Not used as an excuse to reject other commandments of God.

And also, as Jesus said, men are to live by Every Word of God. Not just those Words which align with one or more of the religious sects and franchises of this world God placed both you and I in.

It was never meant to cut loose skin off the penis before turning to God, but for a token of what had already occurred within the heart.

In my understanding anyway.

I could fit but...
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. Proverbs 3:5

This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Genesis 17:10-14

 

[LW97Nils]

Circumcision of the heart was never a carnal commandment.

Certainly, it never was. Circumcision of the flesh however was.

 

[ralliann]

Circumcision of the heart was never a carnal commandment. Taking a dead animal to a corruptible Levite Priest for forgiveness of sins, divers washings, burning meats, etc., these Priesthood “works of the law” are the “carnal commandment”.

God’s instruction in righteousness is not carnal, in spite of many of this worlds religions claim that they are.

Hebrews was speaking to the Priesthood that changed, not God’s Spiritual Holy, Just and Good laws.

True, but there was law, prior to Moses law as well. Walking/doing as Father Abraham. He was not under Sinai law, since God never made that covenant with the Patriarchs.

Deut 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

An interesting consideration here in the above verse. Throughout the bible God promises are based upon the covenant made with their fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. In the law, and in the Gospel this same is true. The covenant of mercy promised. Abraham was not under the Moses law, anymore than the nations were. But the nations are included in the Abrahamic covenant promises.

This is not to imply in anyway, that Moses law was without Abrahamic law. Law to Noah, and Abraham, was retained in the law is all, as whole law. I believe that law is the law of faith, as written in Hebrews Chapter 11 (aka; the faith hall of fame).

 

[Studyman]

What He told him? That he is forgiven.

Still, my point on Isaiah 64:6 abides, it was for the Old Covenant. Saints were not free from the power sin back then. For Isaiah included himself.

No He didn’t my friend. He told David his sin was taken away, not covered. What you call the “old covenant” is not God’s definition of His old covenant.

This is why we should trust in God for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness, and not the religions of this world He not only placed us in, but warned us about.

Paul tells the Body of Christ that they are still servants to whom they obey. Either “Sin” unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness.

This was 14 or more years into God’s Prophesied new covenant.

Willful sin or rejection of God’s Judgement still brings death.

My point is that we are warned about listening to religious men, who call Jesus Lord, who come in His Name but are either deceived or deceivers.

Most believe these many warnings were for “the other guy”. But I have found this religious practice fatal Spiritually.

I am hoping that you might consider the contradictions between what you promote and what is actually written and consider, “what if Jesus and His Father are right, and it’s the “many” who come in His Name that we need to question and prove, and not the Scriptures.

 

[Studyman]

True, but there was law, prior to Moses law as well. Walking/doing as Father Abraham. He was not under Sinai law, since God never made that covenant with the Patriarchs.

Deut 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

Read Jer. 7:22-24. What “covenant” did God make with those who weren’t killed after the golden calf?

Read Mal. 2, and tell me who God made this covenant with and why?

If you can put this worlds religious philosophies you and I were taught since our youth aside for 5 minutes and consider what “Law/Covenant” was added “because of transgressions”, you will understand the covenant God made in Mercy, for those who were still alive, and not wiped out so God could make a nation out of Moses.

An interesting consideration here in the above verse. Throughout the bible God promises are based upon the covenant made with their fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. In the law, and in the Gospel this same is true. The covenant of mercy promised. Abraham was not under the Moses law, anymore than the nations were. But the nations are included in the Abrahamic covenant promises.

Abraham obeyed God’s Statutes, Judgments, Laws and Commandments. Other than the added “Levitical Priesthood”, there is no evidence that God gave Abraham different instructions than He gave Abraham’s children.

When a person understands what the Added Law, “ because of transgression”, “till the seed should come”, they will understand it was the Priesthood that changed, not Gods definition of sin.

Of course, this worlds religions do not teach this in Christs time, and they don’t teach it today. They preach the deception that there is no separation between the carnal Levitical priesthood “ works of the law” for forgiveness, and Gods Holy, Just, Good and Spiritual “instruction in righteousness”.

This is not to imply in anyway, that Moses law was without Abrahamic law. Law to Noah, and Abraham, was retained in the law is all, as whole law. I believe that law is the law of faith, as written in Hebrews Chapter 11 (aka; the faith hall of fame).

Nevertheless, God said to obey is better than sacrifice. Obey what? Sacrifices, or Commandments.

This was a hard pill for me to swallow 30 years ago. But thanks to God I have come to understand that God doesn’t want the blood of animals and never did. He wants obedience which is true Faith as Every Example of Faith in the Faith hall of fame demonstrates.

The Faith of obedient Abraham, not those who rebelled against God’s Laws, despised His Judgements and polluted His Sabbaths.

It’s not an easy thing to turn away from religious doctrine and tradition and turn to God in obedience even for this who believe God. Impossible for those who don’t believe Him, in my view.

 

[Studyman]

Certainly, it never was. Circumcision of the flesh however was.

Paul said circumcision was beneficial for those who were lawful. But useless for those who were not.

So then, a loyal servant who humbles himself under the mighty hand of God as the NT instructs, who opts for circumcision, is not being carnal is he? But faithful, Yes?

 

[anetazo]

Melchizedek is Jesus. It means = King of the Zadok, elect. The election are of the priesthood of melchizedek. ARCHIEREUS in Greek means = christ, chief of the priests. MALKIY- TSEDEA means = Melchizedek. IEPEUS in Greek means = priest, elected, and separated by God. EKLEGOMAI in Greek means = chosen, Election. Romans 11:7. What then? Israel has not obtained that which he seeks for; but the Election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. God's Election have holy spirit. God put blinders on some people. NUWM in Hebrew means = Slumber. First Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man received not the things of the spirit of God : for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spirtualty Discerned. Lot of people, including preachers and leaders have spirit of stupor. God placed spirit of slumber on them. God's Election have holy spirit. The election are of the priesthood of Melchizedek. Isaiah chapter 29:10. For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep and hath closed your eyes; the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath He covered. Lot of churches teach milk to people. They don't get to meat of God's word. Isaiah chapter 29 answers this. They have spirit of slumber. Gods Elect are teachers and priests. During millennium, the election will teach, and discipline the spirtualty dead during millennium. Documentation, revelation chapter 20, and Ezekiel chapter 44.

 

[ralliann]

Read Jer. 7:22-24. What “covenant” did God make with those who weren’t killed after the golden calf?

The Sinai covenant. But also gave them Circumcision as well from the fathers. Joshua circumcised the children of Israel a second time also before they entered the land. The generation that came out were circumcised (moses), but they did not circumcise their children along the weay in the wilderness Jos 5.

Read Mal. 2, and tell me who God made this covenant with and why?

Levi, Which John the Baptist was a Levite, son of Aaron.

If you can put this worlds religious philosophies you and I were taught since our youth aside for 5 minutes and consider what “Law/Covenant” was added “because of transgressions”, you will understand the covenant God made in Mercy, for those who were still alive, and not wiped out so God could make a nation out of Moses.

Not according to Paul's religious Philosophy. Nor the law.
Abrahamic covenant/s.
Le 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
Le 26:45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

De 7:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:

Abraham obeyed God’s Statutes, Judgments, Laws and Commandments. Other than the added “Levitical Priesthood”, there is no evidence that God gave Abraham different instructions than He gave Abraham’s children.

The law of faith. Paul says the law brings wrath, and the law is not of faith

When a person understands what the Added Law, “ because of transgression”, “till the seed should come”, they will understand it was the Priesthood that changed, not Gods definition of sin.

See the above. The mercy he sware unto the fathers in covenant. What do you think that is talking about? Remember the priesthood is changeable, because it was made without an swearing an oath. See the oath sworn to Abraham in Genesis 22. Also it was the land covenant of Gen 15, that promised their redemption from Egypt. Passover is a memorial to the fulfilling of the promises made in the covenant of Genesis 15.

Of course, this worlds religions do not teach this in Christs time, and they don’t teach it today. They preach the deception that there is no separation between the carnal Levitical priesthood “ works of the law” for forgiveness, and Gods Holy, Just, Good and Spiritual “instruction in righteousness”.

Nevertheless, God said to obey is better than sacrifice. Obey what? Sacrifices, or Commandments.

This was a hard pill for me to swallow 30 years ago. But thanks to God I have come to understand that God doesn’t want the blood of animals and never did. He wants obedience which is true Faith as Every Example of Faith in the Faith hall of fame demonstrates.

The Faith of obedient Abraham, not those who rebelled against God’s Laws, despised His Judgements and polluted His Sabbaths.

It’s not an easy thing to turn away from religious doctrine and tradition and turn to God in obedience even for this who believe God. Impossible for those who don’t believe Him, in my view.

Well in my view. You are not either listening to Paul or you do not understand him. I also think you are jumping to assumptions about me.

 

[ralliann]

Circumcision of the heart was never a carnal commandment.

And? Circumcision of the heart is not just for Israel either.
Ro 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Taking a dead animal to a corruptible Levite Priest for forgiveness of sins, divers washings, burning meats, etc., these Priesthood “works of the law” are the “carnal commandment”.

Actually that is carnal ordinances Heb 9:10. Genealogy of Levitical priesthood is a carnal commandment. Heb 7:16

God’s instruction in righteousness is not carnal,

I disagree. For their own righteousness, it was in the carnal commends. I believe this is righteousness between man and man. That God not be blasphemed

Their own righteousness.
De 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Their own righteousness,
De 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.

God's righteousness His faithfulness to keep his oath......

De 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

We are to understand this..... Not their righteousness, but Gods righteousness, he is a faithful God, keeps his oath,,,,,,,

De 9:6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

 

[Studyman]

The Sinai covenant.

I understand what we have been taught in this world, but Paul teaches the Holy Scriptures are inspired by God, and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Therefore I believe these Scriptures should be believed over the teaching of one or more of the countless religious philosophers and Sects which existed in the Land's God placed you and I in. What I hope for, is an honest discussion where two men who love God, discuss between them what these Scriptures say. In that Spirit, I hope you will answer some questions that I ask and ask some as well.

Jer. 7:21 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.

22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

So when was the Covenant requiring burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin "added"? Before they "hearkened not", (AKA, Transgressed) or after they hearkened not?

Heb. 8: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

What Covenant did God make with Israel "because" they "continued not" ("hearkened not") in God's Covenant? And what was the Covenant they transgressed? Was it not, "Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you,"

My friend, I hope you might consider what the Holy Scriptures are telling you here. What Covenant did God make with Israel "After they hearkened not"? It wasn't the 10 Commandments? Not Passover and Unleavened bread. These all were given to Israel before they "Transgressed". Not God's Sabbath. Not "vex not the stranger"?

When did God "ADD" the Law requiring men to bring a goat to the Levite Priest for forgiveness of their sins? Before the Golden calf, or after the golden calf?

Gal. 3: 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Paul is speaking to the Law that was added "Because they Hearkened not".

Ex. 32: 30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.

Why would Moses need to go make atonement for them? Was it not because God had not commanded them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin? "For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

This is the Law that was ADDED, because of Transgressions, that God didn't command their fathers in the day HE gave them His commandments.

Lev. 4:27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;

28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned. 29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering. 30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar. 31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

Only God, who is Spirit, can forgive sins. In the "added" Covenant God forgave sins through sacrificial Law requiring the blood of animals through a Levite Priest. This "Law" was added, "Til the True Lamb of God should come", at which point there was no further need. There was further need for sins to be forgiven, but not through the "works of the Law" of this old priesthood covenant.

The Pharisees refused to let go of this old priesthood because all their fame, wealth and power over others came through it. They were still requiring the "works of the Law" for forgiveness that Moses gave. Basically, that we cannot receive the Spirit of God to forgive our sins unless we perform these "works of the Law". "Take a she goat to the Levite Priest and kill it". Goats that the Pharisees were all to glad to sell them on the Sabbath. These Jews were "bewitching the Galatians" with this "law". Paul explains it like this.

Gal. 1: 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit "by the works of the law", or by the hearing of faith?

The deceiver that Jesus warns about, "many" of whom come in His Name, want to convince folks that God's 10 Commandments, Judgments, Statutes and Laws, "ARE" the "added" Law Paul was speaking to. That the New Covenant is the abolition of God's Laws defined in the Law and Prophets. They refuse to teach, acknowledge or even in many cases, discuss the truth of the Scriptures pointed out above.

My hope is that you might consider them. This is an important foundational doctrine here. If we build a religion founded on a false covenant, the entire building will fall, and as Jesus said, "great will be its fall".

If we can come to terms on what "LAW" was added for the purpose of forgiveness, a Law Abraham was justified "apart from". Then we can be united with Paul and go on to discuss and discern other doctrines.

 

[Studyman]

And? Circumcision of the heart is not just for Israel either.
Ro 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

I never suggested otherwise, nor do I believe otherwise, as my God clearly states. Ex. 12: 49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Actually that is carnal ordinances Heb 9:10. Genealogy of Levitical priesthood is a carnal commandment. Heb 7:16

That is my point exactly.

Heb. 7: 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

What Law were the people to receive through the Levite Priest? Mal. 2: 7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. God's Law, Yes? That HE gave Abraham, and then to Abraham's Children, Yes?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, 16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

What I see in this world's religions, is the refusal to distinguish the difference between the Carnal Priesthood "works of the law", and god's Good, Just, Holy and Perfect Laws that define Sin and instruction in righteousness.

I disagree. For their own righteousness, it was in the carnal commends. I believe this is righteousness between man and man. That God not be blasphemed
Their own righteousness.
De 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

So then Jesus walked in Carnal commandments all His life? And Abraham was Blessed "because" he walked in God's Commandments, which makes him "Carnal"? So then, please explain your religious philosophy here. Are you teaching that God's Laws make those who walked in them "Carnal"? And there is no difference between "Love thy neighbor" and "bring a she goat to the Levite priest, and kill it"? Is this why God inspired these Scriptures you separated one sentence from?

20 And when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What mean the testimonies, and the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD our God hath commanded you? 21 Then thou shalt say unto thy son, We were Pharaoh's bondmen in Egypt; (SIN) and the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand: 22 And the LORD shewed signs and wonders, great and sore, upon Egypt, upon Pharaoh, and upon all his household, before our eyes: 23 And he brought us out from thence, that he might bring us in, to give us the land which he sware unto our fathers. 24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. 25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

If a man walks in God's Righteousness, instead of their own, doesn't that make HIS Righteousness, "OUR" Righteousness?

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Their own righteousness,
De 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.

God's righteousness His faithfulness to keep his oath......

De 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

We are to understand this..... Not their righteousness, but Gods righteousness, he is a faithful God, keeps his oath,,,,,,,

De 9:6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

Was Caleb and Joshua "stiffnecked people"?

Shall I not Listen to Paul?

1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore (because of this Truth) let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

But please answer me, "what happened to those who didn't rebel or lust against God's instructions in the wilderness"? Those men who followed Paul's instruction and "Yielded themselves to Obey God", like Noah and Abraham and Caleb and Joshua, and Gideon, and Zacharias, and Daniel, and Shadrack, and Rehab, and Anna, and EVERY example of Faith in the "Faith hall of Fame"?

Are they not also examples?

 

[ralliann]

I understand what we have been taught in this world,

What is this about?

but Paul teaches the Holy Scriptures are inspired by God, and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Yes

Therefore I believe these Scriptures should be believed over the teaching of one or more of the countless religious philosophers and Sects which existed in the Land's God placed you and I in.

So do I.

What I hope for, is an honest discussion where two men who love God, discuss between them what these Scriptures say.

Honest discussion is good. That is why I said Law, in scripture can mean Levitical law, or all that was written beginning with Genesis.

In that Spirit, I hope you will answer some questions that I ask and ask some as well.

Jer. 7:21 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.

22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

So when was the Covenant requiring burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin "added"? Before they "hearkened not", (AKA, Transgressed) or after they hearkened not?

Heb. 8: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

What Covenant did God make with Israel "because" they "continued not" ("hearkened not") in God's Covenant? And what was the Covenant they transgressed? Was it not, "Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you,"

My friend, I hope you might consider what the Holy Scriptures are telling you here. What Covenant did God make with Israel "After they hearkened not"? It wasn't the 10 Commandments? Not Passover and Unleavened bread. These all were given to Israel before they "Transgressed". Not God's Sabbath. Not "vex not the stranger"?

When did God "ADD" the Law requiring men to bring a goat to the Levite Priest for forgiveness of their sins? Before the Golden calf, or after the golden calf?

Gal. 3: 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Paul is speaking to the Law that was added "Because they Hearkened not".

Ex. 32: 30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.

Why would Moses need to go make atonement for them? Was it not because God had not commanded them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin? "For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

This is the Law that was ADDED, because of Transgressions, that God didn't command their fathers in the day HE gave them His commandments.

Lev. 4:27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;

28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned. 29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering. 30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar. 31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

Only God, who is Spirit, can forgive sins. In the "added" Covenant God forgave sins through sacrificial Law requiring the blood of animals through a Levite Priest. This "Law" was added, "Til the True Lamb of God should come", at which point there was no further need. There was further need for sins to be forgiven, but not through the "works of the Law" of this old priesthood covenant.

The Pharisees refused to let go of this old priesthood because all their fame, wealth and power over others came through it. They were still requiring the "works of the Law" for forgiveness that Moses gave. Basically, that we cannot receive the Spirit of God to forgive our sins unless we perform these "works of the Law". "Take a she goat to the Levite Priest and kill it". Goats that the Pharisees were all to glad to sell them on the Sabbath. These Jews were "bewitching the Galatians" with this "law". Paul explains it like this.

Gal. 1: 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit "by the works of the law", or by the hearing of faith?

The deceiver that Jesus warns about, "many" of whom come in His Name, want to convince folks that God's 10 Commandments, Judgments, Statutes and Laws, "ARE" the "added" Law Paul was speaking to. That the New Covenant is the abolition of God's Laws defined in the Law and Prophets. They refuse to teach, acknowledge or even in many cases, discuss the truth of the Scriptures pointed out above.

My hope is that you might consider them. This is an important foundational doctrine here. If we build a religion founded on a false covenant, the entire building will fall, and as Jesus said, "great will be its fall".

If we can come to terms on what "LAW" was added for the purpose of forgiveness, a Law Abraham was justified "apart from". Then we can be united with Paul and go on to discuss and discern other doctrines.

Again, hard to understand each other without acknowledging Genesis is Law as well. And within the law All of it, we see at least three covenants. We may not agree in the end, but at least an open discussion allows us to understand where the other is coming from. The biggest Issue I see is rejecting that two covenants were made with Abraham.

 

[ralliann]

I never suggested otherwise, nor do I believe otherwise, as my God clearly states. Ex. 12: 49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.


That is my point exactly.

Heb. 7: 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

What Law were the people to receive through the Levite Priest? Mal. 2: 7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. God's Law, Yes? That HE gave Abraham, and then to Abraham's Children, Yes?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, 16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

What I see in this world's religions, is the refusal to distinguish the difference between the Carnal Priesthood "works of the law", and god's Good, Just, Holy and Perfect Laws that define Sin and instruction in righteousness.




So then Jesus walked in Carnal commandments all His life? And Abraham was Blessed "because" he walked in God's Commandments, which makes him "Carnal"? So then, please explain your religious philosophy here. Are you teaching that God's Laws make those who walked in them "Carnal"? And there is no difference between "Love thy neighbor" and "bring a she goat to the Levite priest, and kill it"? Is this why God inspired these Scriptures you separated one sentence from?

20 And when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What mean the testimonies, and the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD our God hath commanded you? 21 Then thou shalt say unto thy son, We were Pharaoh's bondmen in Egypt; (SIN) and the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand: 22 And the LORD shewed signs and wonders, great and sore, upon Egypt, upon Pharaoh, and upon all his household, before our eyes: 23 And he brought us out from thence, that he might bring us in, to give us the land which he sware unto our fathers. 24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. 25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

If a man walks in God's Righteousness, instead of their own, doesn't that make HIS Righteousness, "OUR" Righteousness?

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.




Was Caleb and Joshua "stiffnecked people"?

Shall I not Listen to Paul?

1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore (because of this Truth) let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

But please answer me, "what happened to those who didn't rebel or lust against God's instructions in the wilderness"? Those men who followed Paul's instruction and "Yielded themselves to Obey God", like Noah and Abraham and Caleb and Joshua, and Gideon, and Zacharias, and Daniel, and Shadrack, and Rehab, and Anna, and EVERY example of Faith in the "Faith hall of Fame"?

Are they not also examples?

Noah was not given to obey Moses law. Abraham, was not given to obey Moses law. It was not one law. Noah built an ark, Abe didn't nor anyone else. Abe prepared to sacrifice His son. Not one law for obedience in the sense you are talking about. But, there is one law for all of them, the law of faith was one law for them Yes?

 

[LW97Nils]

Paul said circumcision was beneficial for those who were lawful. But useless for those who were not.

So then, a loyal servant who humbles himself under the mighty hand of God as the NT instructs, who opts for circumcision, is not being carnal is he? But faithful, Yes?

I agree.

 

[LW97Nils]

No He didn’t my friend. He told David his sin was taken away, not covered. What you call the “old covenant” is not God’s definition of His old covenant.

This is why we should trust in God for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness, and not the religions of this world He not only placed us in, but warned us about.

Paul tells the Body of Christ that they are still servants to whom they obey. Either “Sin” unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness.

This was 14 or more years into God’s Prophesied new covenant.

Willful sin or rejection of God’s Judgement still brings death.

Absolutely. However, some laws indeed have changed. See Deuteronomy 24. Moses allowed divorce. Christ didn't (Matthew 5:32).

 

[ralliann]

I never suggested otherwise, nor do I believe otherwise, as my God clearly states. Ex. 12: 49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

You are distorting one law. It is for specific things such as to eat the passover. You must become circumcised. There is one law circumcision.

Ex. 12:47 All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.
48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

In other words you must live like a Jew. Your males all have to become Jews, (your household) and are obligated to "whole law". As if you were born a Jew.

 

[Studyman]

What is this about?

We were born into a land in which "many" religious sects and franchises exist along with their religious traditions and varying beliefs, which change according to their adopted philosopher. This is just undeniable fact. In Paul's time, Gamaliel was one very popular religious philosopher of this world. Today, we are born into the influence of the Council of Nicaea, Constantine and the RCC, along with Calvin, Wesley, White, Miller, Russell, etc., etc. We have all been influenced by their manmade religious high days, their judgments, their theories, doctrines and religious traditions etc., just as the Israelites were influenced by the religions of the land God placed them in, and the Jews were influenced by the religions of the world Gold placed them in by the Pharisees and Sadducees, etc.

In Paul's time, they were tasked with studying to discern the difference between Jewish myths and commandments of men, from what the Holy Scriptures actually teach. It is the same today, given that God has delivered into the hands of men, His Oracles. So we don't need to pick through the smorgasbord of self-proclaimed ministers of righteousness to tell us what the Bible says, we can see for ourselves.

Yes

So do I.

Honest discussion is good. That is why I said Law, in scripture can mean Levitical law, or all that was written beginning with Genesis.

That is why we need to study so we can determine what Law is being talked about. Not for the purpose of self-justification, as is most often the case, but as Paul said, for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Again, hard to understand each other without acknowledging Genesis is Law as well. And within the law All of it, we see at least three covenants. We may not agree in the end, but at least an open discussion allows us to understand where the other is coming from. The biggest Issue I see is rejecting that two covenants were made with Abraham.

It's more important to understand scriptures, than each other, in my view. I like to ask questions about the Scriptures, for the purpose of understanding them. But what seems to happen, is a person is set in his religious traditions or philosophies, and sometimes they know the answer to questions, but to answer honestly would bring question to their own religion. So they deflect or try to find a way to continue without answering the questions. This happened with Jesus and the mainstream preachers of His Time. They were more interested in preserving their own religious beliefs that they were taught since their youth, than turning to God and "Seeking His Kingdom, and HIS Righteousness" as Jesus instructed.

There was a Law added 430 years after God said Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. It was a carnal commandment. Abraham was justified apart from it. It had to do with justification after transgressions. And it was only to be in place "Til the SEED should come".

This is why I asked you when the Law concerning men bringing sacrifices and killing them in front of a Levite Priest for forgiveness of sin, was added. Before the golden calf, or after.

 

[Studyman]

Absolutely. However, some laws indeed have changed. See Deuteronomy 24. Moses allowed divorce. Christ didn't (Matthew 5:32).

As I have said before, I know what you and I have been taught, but we should heed the instruction of the Jesus of the Bible and take heed of religious men of this world, who come in Christ's name.

For instance in this doctrine you have been convinced of, it simply isn't true if a person believes the Jesus of the Bible.

32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery..

So you see, Jesus did allow divorce, just as Moses allowed divorce. And for the same reason. But it wasn't supposed to be that way in the beginning. Men were supposed to be faithful to their wives, and women were supposed to be faithful to their husbands. It was because of the hardness of their hearts, that divorce was allowed.

But we have been taught by the religions of this world that Jesus came to correct His Father and add to or take away from His Father's Commandments.

This study and acceptance of what is actually written, is what I advocate for, as opposed to just believing what one or more of this world's religious franchises or sects are preaching.

Duet. 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

Matt. 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery..

It's the same commandment.