Where is the empty tomb?

[Mosheli]

Seriously lol?!?! You have 2 CHRISTIAN sites and JEWISH archaeologists date one 100s of years too old and the other as the only possible candidate. What skin do they have in the game?!?! Nothing! Unsaved has nothing to do with anything regarding this! Just another excuse. Now Christian archaeologists could be biased for sure! Again, the GT does not have a leg to stand on...

Again, the alleged date of the Garden Tomb is not deifnitely reliably proven or infallible proof. The biblical verse about it being a new tomb never used is also/alternatively not definitely certain (esp when comparing the other 3 gospels versions).
The Holy Sepulchre has many doubts and reasons against it even if you refuse to accept the Garden Tomb is possible, so it is not the only possible candidate even if one doesn't accept any other candidates. Roman Christians are well known for fake saints, holidays, sites, so they do have possible reasons for not being wholly truthful. All humans have inner and outer influences, and especially more so with nonbelievers and many Jews (who are quite anti christian).
I can't list all the evidences here but my table in academia which I gave link to has evidences for the GT and evidences against the HS, so it is not true the GT has no leg to stand on.
(Sorry for repeating myself but that is what happens when one or the other person refuses to accept/understand the other's points.)
In any case at least we both agree there is/was such a tomb.

 

[prodromos]

Roman Christians are well known for fake saints, holidays, sites,

They are? Examples?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Again, the alleged date of the Garden Tomb is not deifnitely reliably proven or infallible proof. The biblical verse about it being a new tomb never used is also/alternatively not definitely certain (esp when comparing the other 3 gospels versions).
The Holy Sepulchre has many doubts and reasons against it even if you refuse to accept the Garden Tomb is possible, so it is not the only possible candidate even if one doesn't accept any other candidates. Roman Christians are well known for fake saints, holidays, sites, so they do have possible reasons for not being wholly truthful. All humans have inner and outer influences, and especially more so with nonbelievers and many Jews (who are quite anti christian).
I can't list all the evidences here but my table in academia which I gave link to has evidences for the GT and evidences against the HS, so it is not true the GT has no leg to stand on.
(Sorry for repeating myself but that is what happens when one or the other person refuses to accept/understand the other's points.)
In any case at least we both agree there is/was such a tomb.

No Second Temple era tombs have been found anywhere in the vicinity of the garden tomb. Archaeologist, Gabriel Barkay, who has studied the tomb complex in which the Garden Tomb is located has concluded that it is an Iron Age tomb, dating to the 7th or 8th centuries BC. The Garden Tomb was not a “new tomb in which no one had yet been laid” (John 19:41)...it was already over 600 years old by the time of Yeshua. Archaeological research has demonstrated that the Holy Sepulchre complex was the site of a Jewish cemetery (with multiple kokhim) in an ancient limestone quarry outside the walls of Jerusalem at the time of Yeshua’s death. Regarding the tomb debate, Archaeologist John McRay says: "the archaeological and early literary evidence argues strongly for those who associate it with the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.”

 

[Mosheli]

They are? Examples?

I posted a thread here once on this but they deleted it because some people complain that it is supposedly like "anti-Catholic", and they have a rule that not allowed to offend any denonimations here. But an example is Easter is from Norse goddess Eostre. Jesus was not born at Chistmas. Many other examples.

 

[Mosheli]

No Second Temple era tombs have been found anywhere in the vicinity of the garden tomb. Archaeologist, Gabriel Barkay, who has studied the tomb complex in which the Garden Tomb is located has concluded that it is an Iron Age tomb, dating to the 7th or 8th centuries BC. The Garden Tomb was not a “new tomb in which no one had yet been laid” (John 19:41)...it was already over 600 years old by the time of Yeshua. Archaeological research has demonstrated that the Holy Sepulchre complex was the site of a Jewish cemetery (with multiple kokhim) in an ancient limestone quarry outside the walls of Jerusalem at the time of Yeshua’s death. Regarding the tomb debate, Archaeologist John McRay says: "the archaeological and early literary evidence argues strongly for those who associate it with the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.”

I don't think that is true, but I have to check my notes. They contradict saying (1) no 2nd temple burials, and (2) saying Jewish cemetery at time of Yeshua's death. (Unless they mean a 1st temple Judahite cemetery present at Jesus time.)

Conventional dating methods also often give too old/early dates.

If I have time I will have to post excerpts from all 4 gospels accounts of the event from the original language to see whether it really was a "new tomb that no one ever used before".
Until then I can only post the link again to what I wrote before
Garden Tomb versus Holy Sepulchre .

There are also other possible explanations like Joseph may have renovated the tomb.

Whether or not the garden tomb is or is not the tomb I am sure the Holy Sepulchre is not the tomb.

 

[Mosheli]

Matthew 27 does say "new tomb of him which he had cut in the rock".

But Joseph (who was rich) could have cut the tomb in 1st temple architectural/artistic style.

Mark 15 just says "a tomb which was cut out of a rock".

Luke 23 does say "a tomb cut in a rock in which no had been no one not yet laid", and John 19 does say "in the garden a tomb new in which not yet no one was laid".

But even if it were a 1st temple period tomb maybe it had not been used then or since until Jesus time? Or Joseph could have renovated the tomb.

As to the cemetery that needs to be clarified whether the other graves/tombs/kokhim were all from 1st temple times or Jesus times. But even if they were 1st temple times Joseph could still have picked that place for his tomb even if no other contemporaries did the same.
In fact we would need proof of the names of the people buried there to prove whether the occupants of the cemetery were all 1st temple or 2nd temple period. Because they could all have been rich and built their tombs after 1st temple style.
We have no proof of the Garden Tomb belonging to any named 1st temple period person/couple/family, so the dating / style of the Garden Tomb is not indisputable proof.

 

[prodromos]

But an example is Easter is from Norse goddess Eostre.

That is nonsense from Alexander Hislop. Easter is derived from the Old Teutonic German word for "resurrection". "East" is a synonym for "rise" in many languages because the sun "easts" in the morning and "wests" in the evening.

Jesus was not born at Chistmas. Many other examples

The feast day of Christmas is set nine months from the feast day of Christ's conception, celebrating when the archangel Gabriel visited Mary. The feast days celebrating when Elizabeth conceived and the birth of John the baptist are likewise 9 months apart.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Whether or not the garden tomb is or is not the tomb I am sure the Holy Sepulchre is not the tomb.

Most, if not all, experts disagree with you.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Matthew 27 does say "new tomb of him which he had cut in the rock".

But Joseph (who was rich) could have cut the tomb in 1st temple architectural/artistic style.

Mark 15 just says "a tomb which was cut out of a rock".

Luke 23 does say "a tomb cut in a rock in which no had been no one not yet laid", and John 19 does say "in the garden a tomb new in which not yet no one was laid".

But even if it were a 1st temple period tomb maybe it had not been used then or since until Jesus time? Or Joseph could have renovated the tomb.

As to the cemetery that needs to be clarified whether the other graves/tombs/kokhim were all from 1st temple times or Jesus times. But even if they were 1st temple times Joseph could still have picked that place for his tomb even if no other contemporaries did the same.
In fact we would need proof of the names of the people buried there to prove whether the occupants of the cemetery were all 1st temple or 2nd temple period. Because they could all have been rich and built their tombs after 1st temple style.
We have no proof of the Garden Tomb belonging to any named 1st temple period person/couple/family, so the dating / style of the Garden Tomb is not indisputable proof.

Could, maybe, might, if...lots of excuses on your end

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I don't think that is true, but I have to check my notes. They contradict saying (1) no 2nd temple burials, and (2) saying Jewish cemetery at time of Yeshua's death. (Unless they mean a 1st temple Judahite cemetery present at Jesus time.)

Conventional dating methods also often give too old/early dates.

If I have time I will have to post excerpts from all 4 gospels accounts of the event from the original language to see whether it really was a "new tomb that no one ever used before".
Until then I can only post the link again to what I wrote before
Garden Tomb versus Holy Sepulchre .

There are also other possible explanations like Joseph may have renovated the tomb.

Whether or not the garden tomb is or is not the tomb I am sure the Holy Sepulchre is not the tomb.

"Upon a reexamination of the Garden Tomb in 1974 by Israeli archaeologist Gabriel Barkay, it has been determined that this tomb contains none of the architectural hallmarks of a tomb from the time of Jesus.

"From the flat ceiling of the tomb, to the layout of the tomb and chambers itself, to the marks left by the tool used to chisel out the burial benches, to a closer look at the objects discovered in a small-scale dig in front of the tomb itself in 1904, every piece of evidence indicates the tomb was first used 700 to 800 years before Jesus."

"Not a single tomb from the time of Jesus has ever been found in the vicinity of the Garden Tomb."

"On the basis of the authority of Scripture and in conjunction with the data brought to light by a reexamination of the history of the tomb, it is impossible that the Garden Tomb is the empty tomb of Jesus."

"All the evidence points to the Church of the Holy Sepulcher as being the tomb in which Jesus rose from the dead."

"The Garden Tomb bears striking similarities to tombs at the nearby St. Stephens Catholic Church, which have been dated to the Iron Age 2 (1000 to 586 BC)."

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

The Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Armenian and various other Oriental churches share it currently; so no Lutherans, Anglicans or other Protestants as far as I am aware. But it is still the traditional sight according to Church tradition, so most people I know that went to Israel for religious reasons went there to pray, even if Protestant services aren't held there.

I affirm that location as a Non-Denom.

 

[jd01]

I think the exact site of the Tomb was lost when the quarry Golgotha was filled in when the Romans rebuilt Jerusalem in the 130s. The quarry had many tombs, some of which you can still at the Holy Sepulchre. Reportedly when they were constructing Constantine's Church in the 330s on the site, they came across a tomb which they designated as THE tomb. So we really do not know where the tomb was.

 

[Kees Boer]

I think that out of the 3 candidates for the tomb that the Garden Tomb near Skull Hill / Gordon's Calvary is the best candidate. The Holy Sepulcher is very doubtful for various reasons, and the Talpiot tomb certainly doesn't match the Jesus of the gospels. All-Dread: Garden Tomb

Yes, I think that the Garden Tomb is the best candidate too... Remember the sacrifices were killed on the north side of the temple. The Garden Tomb and the skull of the rock are about one block away from each other.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The Garden Tomb and the skull of the rock are about one block away from each other.

So what?

 

[Kees Boer]

So what?

I just wrote that, not as any proof, just to give it some perspective.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I just wrote that, not as any proof, just to give it some perspective.

OK. Perspective on what?

 

[Kees Boer]

OK. Perspective on what?

On the place.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

On the place.

You said "The Garden Tomb and the skull of the rock are about one block away from each other." So what?

 

[dqhall]

Yes, I think that the Garden Tomb is the best candidate too... Remember the sacrifices were killed on the north side of the temple. The Garden Tomb and the skull of the rock are about one block away from each other.

The rich first century Jews of Jerusalem buried their dead in limestone tombs. The bedrock and outcrops in that area are limestone. This limestone is soft enough to be cut with iron tools. Once the dead decomposed, their bones were placed in limestone boxes called ossuaries. Usually an epitaph, name or decoration was carved on the box. The tomb of the chief priest Caiaphas and his family was discovered in Peace Forest/ N. Talpiot by a road construction crew in 1992. This area was south of the city. Herod was buried at one of his fortresses, but his family was buried in a tomb behind the King David Hotel near the Joppa Gate with a stone rolled across the entrance. The Jews feared being made unclean by corpse contamination. Burial sites were some distance from houses and outside the city walls. A poor person was buried in a field.

Photos of tombs built with a rounded stone rolled across the entrance:

Rolling Stone Tombs Jerusalem

Other Rolling Stone Tombs

 

[Kees Boer]

The rich first century Jews of Jerusalem buried their dead in limestone tombs. The bedrock and outcrops in that area are limestone. This limestone is soft enough to be cut with iron tools. Once the dead decomposed, their bones were placed in limestone boxes called ossuaries. Usually an epitaph, name or decoration was carved on the box. The tomb of the chief priest Caiaphas and his family was discovered in Peace Forest/ N. Talpiot by a road construction crew in 1992. This area was south of the city. Herod was buried at one of his fortresses, but his family was buried in a tomb behind the King David Hotel near the Joppa Gate with a stone rolled across the entrance. The Jews feared being made unclean by corpse contamination. Burial sites were some distance from houses and outside the city walls. A poor person was buried in a field.

Photos of tombs built with a rounded stone rolled across the entrance:

Rolling Stone Tombs Jerusalem

Other Rolling Stone Tombs

Yes, that's true.... Very good!!!