Where is "go to heaven" in the Bible?

[LoveofTruth]

Why do you believe the Divine Father is in the men before the accomplishment of eternal redemption at the cross?

Hello again and God bless,

I can see where sone of these deep things can be misunderstood.

First, the only way that God could give the free gift to all men, the true Light that lighteth every man(John 1:9 KJV), the seed down, the word, Christ working inward. Is through Jesus Christ actual work in the flesh in time and his death and resurrection. But knowing this would be in time God was able to give to all the free gift that came upon all men. The true Light that lighteth every man. So this inward working of God was in all(though not in union with them until repentance and faith ) but God still was working even in the Gentiles who have the work of the law written in their hearts. These are the secrets of men the hidden things. The mystery that hath been hid from ages which is Christ in you the hope of glory.

Jesus said(before the cross that he was in them (John 15) And we read of the Father speaking in them before the cross (Matthew 10). But they did not have the Holy Ghost given until Jesus was risen. He was with them as he was in OT times. But not in them. But this does not mean that Christ was not in them or the Father.

Consider,

John 15: 4. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.”

This shows that Christ was in them before the cross , the Son. He is the word down in them the seed.

Even Abraham had christ in him. But not the promised Holy Ghost baptism.

Galatians 3: 16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ…29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

OT saints were born again by the word of God before the cross though not without the cross in time. The word quickened them or made them alive. They had a new creation in them a clean heart and the spirit of Christ in them.

Psalm 51: 10. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.”

Peter said Jesus was the Christ the Son of God before the cross and was blessed. This showed that he and others who said so were already born again. As we read those who say such things are born again and have God in them.

Matthew 16: 16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Spoken before the cross (though not without it in time.

1 John 5: 1. Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.”

1 John 4: 15. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.”

This is a long topic and soo much to say here. I will just touch on it for now.

Is it because the term Father was used in the Hebrew Bible?


That means no one could be a believer in Jesus without the merciful drawing power of the Father.
But men could be drawn to Jesus, attracted to Jesus prior to receiving Him within them.

When He comes the Father in Him comes along to to indwell the believers who have been drawn to Jesus.
Especially in John's Gospel at resurrection we see Him breath Himself into His followers as the Holy Spirit.

He was referring to the Holy Ghost when he breathed in them. He was already with them in them (John 25, etc) he gave them ANOTHER comforter. Yes, the Father and the don and the Holy Ghost are all Gid, these three are one. But distinct persons and work in believers. We read of the spirit of the Father speaking in men and the Spirit of the Son in our hearts and the Holy Ghost in believers.

Then Jesus said to them again, Peace be to you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.
And when He had said this, He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit. (John 20:21,22)

It was at resurrection He began (in John) to say His Father was now their Father.

The Father was already the believers Father way before the resurrection, many things were not clear to them and eventually the Holy Ghost would reveal things. Jesus also told them that when they pray say “Our Father… “, Jesus had manifested the Fathers name to them and kept them in his name during his ministry (John 17 KJV).

. . . for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them,
I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God. (John 20:17b)

It is in resurrection He became in a state in which He could dwell within man as "a life giving Spirit".

the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45b)

He has always been the life and light. If men. Read John 1:1-9.

It is in resurrection that we become regenerated unto a living hope - the living indwelling Lord Jesus.

Since the time of Adam men could be born again and saved and be in Christ having the inward circumcision of the heart. . If any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his

who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Pet. 1:3b)

We now have a full assurance of hope by Christ resurrection which or saint did not have that assurance and their conscience. (With knowledge) could not be made clean or perfect yet. But they could have a new heart and life and be saved and born again. Again this is a long talk with soo much scripture we would be writing all day.

The day we shall know He is in the Father and we in Him and He in us is the day we recieve Him in resurrection.

In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. (John 14:20)

Knowing spiritual things and understanding did become clearer with the Holy Ghost showing them. But this mystery was still there in them and hidden in the past.

I am aware of verses that could be offered to show the Spirit was in, for example, some of the prophets.
But there are two great becames in the New Testament that show the process the Triune God passed through in order to be our life.

1.) The Word became flesh (John 1:14).
2.) The last Adam became a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45)

Yes, without Hesus wirk in time and his life, death on the cross for sin and resurrection, none could have been saved or can be saved. but God sees the heart the inward secret things and could give them the substance of things hoped for through faith. They were hungering after His righteousness and were filled.

The first step as you know concerns the incarnation of God as a man.
The second step concerns this God-man becoming in a form that He could impart the life of this God-man GIVING us Christ from within.

The God-man would not leave us as orphans. But He would come to us in resurrection.

Jesus was always with them even before he was risen. His sheep knew his voice even when he called them. They were his sheep and in him and had eternal life as Jesus said about his sheep.

For the coming of the Another Comforter is actually the coming of the Lord Jesus in the form of a life giving Spirit.

And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever,

The other comforter is the distinct person of the Trinity the Holy Ghost. It is interesting that the word “another” used here shows two distinct persons. Just like when Jesus says “I and my a Father”, shows two distinct persons yet one God.

Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you.

Again speaking of the specific future event of them having the Holy Ghost. They already had the Spirit of the Father and Christ in them as can be shown in scripture. But the fullness and baotism with the Holy Ghost they did not have yet,

I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you. (John 14:16-18)

Notice that the Him and the He of verse 17 suddenly becomes the I of verse 18.

Jesus also is in every believer and the Father and the Holy Ghost.

When some here the word Spirit they assume it is only the Holy Ghost spoken of but scripture speak differently about this.

It is evident in Matthew's gospel Jesus does speak of "your Father" and we should pray "our Father".
His speaking there is in view of what will happen when He becomes the life giving Spirit in resurrection to bring
He and His Father as the Spirit as the divine "We" into His lovers.

I take the Lord's words in Matthew's gospel indicating God as our Father to be anticipatory.
From the standpoint of God's transcendent viewpoint it has all taken place already - His economical dispensing of Himself into man.

For you are not the ones speaking, but the Spirit of your Father is the One speaking in you. (Matt. 10:20)

Matthew and John compliment each other rather than contradict each other.
If I believe the Father is already indwelling the disciples before Christ's death and resurrection then John must be in error.
For John records Christ taking the expedient step of going from abiding WITH the disciples to abiding IN the disciples.
But that would be unnecessary if He were already in the disciples before His going to accomplish redemption for man.

On the other hand I cannot say Matthew is mistaken to record Jesus saying before His redemptive act that
the Father was thier Father.

I resolve this tension by viewing Matthew 's record of Christ's teaching as anticipatory.

I don’t see it that way. Jesus spoke of the present ministry he sent them on that the Spirit of the Father would speak in them when needed. We know this is not only speaking of future events because he says fir them to not go the way if the gentiles but only to those in Israel. Clearly this was for that present time and not after the resurrection (even though such ministry can also extend to that later events).

Matthew 10: 5. These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

And he told them that were sent to Israel that the Spirit of the Father would speak in them when needed. They did not have the Holy Ghost in them yet but He was with them also.

 

[oikonomia]

You gotta pay attention in order to keep up with the conversation.

The spirit of man requires regeneration in the New Testament.
The soul of man requires transformation.
The body requires transfiguration.

A lot of my discussion on this thread which I started is about these matters. And to simply long to die to go to heaven OR
to assume God wants unclothed, naked souls in heaven OR heaven is the intended eternal destiny of Christians - these prevailing
beliefs need re-examination. Especially they need re-evaluation to those who seek to go on to a more mature understanding of
God's household management and purpose - His economy.

Now as I read the New Testament all the instances I see of any people clearly in heaven occur after they have
been resurrected, transfigured, and raptured there having been fully suited, preserved complete and without blame through His
extensive salvation to be there in heaven.

The souls seen underneath the altar in Revelation chapter 6 and the 5th seal are not in heaven.
"Underneath the altar" should mean underneath the earth. They sacrificed their lives on earth and they cry out to God
from Paradise or "Abraham's Bosom" underneath the earth.

And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had.

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Master, holy and true, will You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

And to each of them was given a white robe; and it was said to them that they should rest yet a little while, until also the number of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed, even as they were, is completed. (Rev. 6:9-11)

Since they are at rest they are comfortable even as Lazarus was comfortable after dying and being taken by the angels
to Abraham's bosom in Luke 16. Isn't he comforted there in "the heart of the earth" where Jesus went for three days
on the day He died?

For just as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. (Matt. 22:40)

Where did Jesus take the believing thief that very day, when Jesus said "This day you will be with Me in Paradise" ?
He must have taken the saved believing thief to "the heart of the earth" where Paradise is.

Did Jesus on "this day" (the day of His crucifixion) go to Heaven? No. The Bible says He descended to the lower parts of the earth.
(Now this, “He ascended,” what is it except that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth? (Eph. 4:9)

No one is trying to rob you of your hope to be comfortable with your Father when you die.
Can your Father place you somewhere to be comfortable in "the heart of the earth" until your resurrection and transfiguration are accomlpished? Would you allow Him to keep you "with the Lord" and "abroad from the body" for that temporary time?

 

[oikonomia]

Hello again and God bless,

I can see where sone of these deep things can be misunderstood.

Greeting in the Lord.
I will be looking specifically for the answer to why you believe the Father is indwelling men before accomplishment of redemption
on the cross by Jesus Christ.

I cannot respond to all your comments this morning.

First, the only way that God could give the free gift to all men, the true Light that lighteth every man(John 1:9 KJV), the seed down, the word, Christ working inward. Is through Jesus Christ actual work in the flesh in time and his death and resurrection.

Okay. Here you affirm, I think, that His incarnation, life, death, and resurrection and becoming a life giving Spirit are critical for this indwelling of the Father.

But knowing this would be in time God was able to give to all the free gift that came upon all men.

I have a little trouble understanding this sentence.

The true Light that lighteth every man. So this inward working of God was in all(though not in union with them until repentance and faith ) but God still was working even in the Gentiles who have the work of the law written in their hearts.

What I am looking for is your reason for believing the Father was living in men before the new covenant.
There is no argument from me that God is light and His word is a light to our path throughout all history.
And that He strives with men's conscience is evident even in the time of Noah long before Christ's coming.

And Jehovah said, My Spirit will not strive with man forever, for he indeed is flesh; so his days will be one hundred twenty years. (Gen. 6:3)

God works on man's conscience, convicts, and enlightens men throughout history. This has to be true.
And He is referred to as the Father in lieu of His being the Creator is also true.

What I am looking for in your thoughts is more than God working on or even in man but His indwelling man as the divine Father
before the resurrection of Christ.

These are the secrets of men the hidden things. The mystery that hath been hid from ages which is Christ in you the hope of glory.

Jesus said(before the cross that he was in them (John 15) And we read of the Father speaking in them before the cross (Matthew 10). But they did not have the Holy Ghost given until Jesus was risen. He was with them as he was in OT times. But not in them. But this does not mean that Christ was not in them or the Father.

I would ask you then, IF they had not yet received the Holy Spirit how could the Father be indwelling them?

God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truthfulness. (John 4:24)

Consider,

John 15: 4. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.”

This shows that Christ was in them before the cross , the Son. He is the word down in them the seed.

So you believe before His death, resurrection, and becoming the divine life giving Spirit the Father was indwelling the disciples?

I see the point of highlighting God works with men to direct, convict, lead, enlighten, etc from Genesis on through the OT.

Do you think emphasising that God the Father was in men all along makes chapters 14 on in the Gospel of John somewhat
an anticlimax? I mean when in resurrection He appears alive to them and enacts the gesture of breathing into them saying "Receive the Holy Spirit" is rather unnecessary?

I hear you saying that before the Holy Spirit was breathed into them in John 20 the Father who is Spirit (John 4:24) was already indwelling them.

After considering this interpretation seriously I looked again and noticed this about "an hour is coming."

But an hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truthfulness, for the Father also seeks such to worship Him. (John 4:33)

It is paradoxical to me that Jesus said "an hour is COMING, and it is NOW".
In light of your concept I could understand that the hour of the indwelling Father had come for SOME already.
So for them it need not BE coming.

I mused on the verse. And at present I think "an hour is coming, and it is now" refers probably to the fact that for Him - a man that hour
was already going on everyday of His life. He was like us a man. He was with the Father living in Him from incarnation and was throughout
His earthly life before the cross a true worshipper par excellence.

But for the rest of us who are men and women like Him, the hour of true worship was to COME.
It came after His death and resurrection to accomplish a removal of the veil seperating us from God.

Having therefore, brothers, boldness for entering the Holy of Holies in the blood of Jesus,
Which entrance He initiated for us as a new and living way through the veil, that is, His flesh, (Hebrews 10:19,20)

Suddenly I have no more time to write right now.
Be back latter.

 

[oikonomia]

Galatians 3: 16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ…29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

What I am looking for specifically are your reasons to believe the divine Father in the Triune God was indwelling people
before Christ's work of redemptive death and resurrection.

Here you refer to Galatians 3:16 as evidence for this. I may not comment too much now. It gives great opportunity to
get back into this book. I would like to come back to Galatians latter.

OT saints were born again by the word of God before the cross though not without the cross in time.

You want me to believe that the Old Testament believers were born again.

The word quickened them or made them alive.

If they were born again before Christ's coming to fulfill His ministry are you saying they were already quickened (made alive) and therefore were already born from above, born of the Spirit?

So are you saying that Nicodemus who came questioning Jesus in John chapter 3 was already quickened, made alive in his spirit, born from above as he conversed with Jesus?

They had a new creation in them a clean heart and the spirit of Christ in them.

Psalm 51: 10. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.”

Okay, there are many passages in the Old Testament conveying something of God's work on people. And the case could be made
that all these refer to the indwelling of God's Spirit.

However, "Take not the Spirit of thy holiness from me" may not mean to take the Father out of from within me.

The influence of God's Spirit upon David could cause his heart to be cleaner than if there were no influence.
Samson had the Spirit of God come upon him mightily. I do not believe he had that clean of a heart or the Father's indwelling.

But that God worked upon men, came upon them somehow, influenced them, and caused His word to be a moral light
to their path in life surely didn't START with the new covenant church. With that I would agree.

My concern is this. John selects out of the enumerable and unwritten things Jesus spoke and did, a selection of particular things.
These he says he wrote that we might receive life in His name. (John 20:30,31)

Now in doing this John spends about half of the Gospel of John on things concerning His death and resurrection.
I would say chapters 14 through 21 are dedicated to Christ relationship to His disciples after His going to the cross.
If so much space in John's Gospel is dedicated to explaining how Jesus taught concerning this transitional event, why would
you labor to make it an anticlimax? I mean your take on John seems to lean towards teaching "Now don't think it was a major deal
that Jesus died, rose, or sends the Holy Spirit. All this was ALREADY in place all through the Old Testament."

Now I want to be fair to your concept. But I get the impression you are especially laboring to take out of the Gospel the uniqueness
of Christ's having to go to Calvary, resurrecting, and imparting the Holy Spirit into His disciples.

The general tone I pick up from you is that it is important to realize all this work of Jesus Christ is not ALL that unique.
Ie. Quite without what Jesus did we have the Father as living in men and women anyway back in Old Testament times.

Is that a fair impression of your labors to prove that David was born again anyway quite without the New Testament ?

If it is not fair to your way of teaching, what IS important about people realizing David was born again and had the Father living
in him prior to Christ coming?

Do you want Christians to understand that John chapters 14 through 20 are over appreciated?

 

[RocK Guy]

to assume God wants unclothed, naked souls in heaven OR heaven is the intended eternal destiny of Christians

We will be in a glorified body so we will not be nekkid, and wherever the Lord is... that IS Heaven

The souls seen underneath the altar in Revelation chapter 6 and the 5th seal are not in heaven.
"Underneath the altar" should mean underneath the earth.

That's your personal assumption. There is an alter in Heaven, so you'd be wrong:

Revelation 8:3
Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne.

Revelation 8:5
Then the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar, and threw it to the earth; and there followed peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

Revelation 9:13
Then the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

Revelation 14:18
Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe

Revelation 16:7
And I heard the altar saying, “Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.


You have failed to understand that Jesus was victorious over death, hell, and the grave so men can become born again and abide IN CHRIST so there is no further need for Abraham's Bosom now.

When one has better understanding of what Jesus did thru His death, burial, and resurrection they know more that those looking only at what all went on before Jesus went to the Cross.

Feel free to believe whatever you want, but the rest of use Christians will be going in to the literal presence of the Father in Heaven where Jesus Christ is seated at His Right Hand when we die which is what Paul was speaking of in (2 Corinthians 5:8) as He is speaking of what happens AFTER Jesus was raised from the dead, not before as you are looking at.

Did Jesus on "this day" (the day of His crucifixion) go to Heaven? No. The Bible says He descended to the lower parts of the earth.

And, WHAT happened after?

Jesus was raised from the dead and He is currently in Heaven seated at the right hand of the Father.

Gotta look at the big picture man and get unstuck from what happened before His resurrection.

 

[oikonomia]

We will be in a glorified body so we will not be nekkid, and wherever the Lord is... that IS Heaven





That's your personal assumption. There is an alter in Heaven, so you'd be wrong:

Revelation 8:3
Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne.

That is the incense altar not the bronze altar of sacrifice.

Revelation 8:5
Then the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar, and threw it to the earth; and there followed peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

There was the bronze altar in the outer court where the beasts were slain.
And there is the golden altar of incense before the Holy of Holies in the Holy Place where incense (signifying prayer) was offered.

The altar of sacrifice is the one that John saw the souls of those who had died for their testimony.

Revelation 9:13
Then the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

See? You confirm that the golden altar is distinct from the altar in the outer court which was of bronze altar for the slaying of sacrifices.

I wish I had time for more writing now. But I do not.
Yes, I do interpret the souls beneath the altar at the fifth seal to be underneath the earth.

When I come back I will provide more reasons that this is the best interpretation imo.
I would also object if someone suggested that the golden altar in which prayers ascend to God in the Holy Place
was the same altar as the bronze altar in the outer court.

Your other comments I'll have to study latter.

 

[oikonomia]

And, WHAT happened after?

He rose from the dead on the third day.
It is wonderfully victorious.

Jesus was raised from the dead and He is currently in Heaven seated at the right hand of the Father.

Yes. Absolutely.
And He is also Christ in us the hope of glory.

Gotta look at the big picture man and get unstuck from what happened before His resurrection.

Have to see the big picture. So true.
Thankyou.

 

[LoveofTruth]

What I am looking for specifically are your reasons to believe the divine Father in the Triune God was indwelling people
before Christ's work of redemptive death and resurrection.

Matthew 10: 20. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.”

And they were sent to the lost sheep of Israel at that time . They were found sheep having eternal life as Jesus said he gives eternal life to his sheep abd they were sent to the list sheep. They were not sent to the Gentiles at that time as they would be after Pentecost.

Here you refer to Galatians 3:16 as evidence for this. I may not comment too much now. It gives great opportunity to
get back into this book. I would like to come back to Galatians latter.

Yes, we see in Galatians three that Abraham had the seed (Christ) in him and believers are of the same seed. His seed remains in us 1 John 3:9 KJV .

You want me to believe that the Old Testament believers were born again.

I only show what scripture shows. I showed how David spoke of a new creation in him and having the spirit. Abd I spoke of Peter and others evidencing that they were born again by thier confession as proven in 1 John 4:15, and 1 John 5:1 KJV. There are other evidences. The believers in the OT were called saints, righteous, it was said the Lird is their righteousness. They were caulked His sheep, etc.

Christ dwells in our heart by faith. I speak of Christ here , the seed, the word of God the true Light, the Son. And we read of all the OT saints being saved by faith. We read of salvation before the cross (though not without it in time) . What I mean by this is that God was able to give the salvation by grace through faith because in time He knows that Christ will die for their sins and ruse again . But they could not be perfect without us or have the fullness of the Holy Ghost baptism until the resurrection of Jesus. However they did have the Holy Ghost with them and working in the OT but he was with tham and shall be in them who are in the New Testament. We even read of sone with special things said about them like this,

Luke 1: 13. But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. 15. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.”

If they were born again before Christ's coming to fulfill His ministry are you saying they were already quickened (made alive) and therefore were already born from above, born of the Spirit?

Yes, they had the Father and the Son in them.

But they did not have the Holy Ghost in them yet, he was with them and shall be in them as Jesus said. They already had the Lird sheets in them comforting them but he would give them ANOTHER comforter.

We read of many believing in Jesus before the cross and those who believe have eternal life. They were looking to God’s righteousness in faith even though much was not clear to them. We see all those in Hebrews 11 being saved by faith yet not perfect without us. They did have the gospel preached in types even we read of the gospel being preached before unto Abraham and they had many other things to point to Gods righteousness and we read of them being quickened (made alive) by the word of Gid in the OT. We also are quickened (made alive ) by the word of God In the New Testament.

Psalm 119: 50. This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.”

Ephesians 2: 1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;”

Psalm 119: 40. Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.”

Hebrews 4: 12. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”

Psalm 119: 154. Plead my cause, and deliver me: quicken me according to thy word. 155. Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes.”

James 1: 18. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”

So are you saying that Nicodemus who came questioning Jesus in John chapter 3 was already quickened, made alive in his spirit, born from above as he conversed with Jesus?

He had not yet been born again yet but Jesus told him that he should have known about these things.

Jest was not speaking of a future event but what had already been happening as he said,

John 3: 10. Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.”

Jesus said,

John 3: 3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

So a person at that time could not see the kingdom or the things of the kingdom unless they were born again. They needed spiritual eyes. But consider that ther apostles did see and when speaking of the things of the kingdom to them he said,

Matthew 13::11 15, 16 “1. He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given…15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

That what so can share for now, I have to get back to this kater.

God bless. Be patient in this talk there is soo much that can be said it is overwhelming. And soo many scriptures.

 

[oikonomia]

We will be in a glorified body so we will not be nekkid, and wherever the Lord is... that IS Heaven

That's your personal assumption. There is an alter in Heaven, so you'd be wrong:

Revelation 8:3
Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne.

Revelation 8:5
Then the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar, and threw it to the earth; and there followed peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

Revelation 9:13
Then the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

I liked the line of verses from Revelation. I definitely want to be like you glorying in the righteousness of God and His judgment.

I have to correct something I said. The altar which the "another Angel" stood by is indeed the altar of bronze in the outer court (Exodus 27:1-8) It is of acacia wood overlayed with bronze.

The symbolism is that the prayers come from the golden altar in the Holy Place, the smaller altar overlad with gold.

And another Angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer, and much incense was given to Him to offer with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. (Rev. 8:3)

The incense is ADDED to the prayers of all the saints. The incense which makes the prayers pleasing and acceptable signifies Christ
within the living of those praying saints.

Those prayers ascended from the altar which is "before the throne" meaning the golden altar which is before the Holy of Holies.
The incense signifies Christ with all His merit to be added to the prayers of the saints.

The smoke of the incense in verse 4 indicates that incense is burned and ascends to God with the prayers of the saints. The implication is that the mixed in merits of Christ as incense makes the prayers of the saints acceptable.

And the smoke of the incense went up with the prayers of the saints out of the hand of the Angel before God. (v.4)

Then we see verse 5,6 -

And the Angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar and cast it to the earth; and there were thunders and voices and lightnings and an earthquake. (v.5)
And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to trumpet. (v.6)

The implication is that this casting answer to the prayers of the saints and ushers in the seven trumpets. The last three of the seven
trumpets are the great tribulation. (Rev. 8:13)

The prayers of the saints must include prayers like that in Luke 18:7-8 and prayers underneath the altar of sacrifice seen in the fifth seal of Revelation 6:9-11. They must be prayers of the saints to vindicate justly judgment upon those who oppose God's economy.

The enemies of God have necessarily become the enemies of God's people.

The prayers of the saints I believe ascend to God from two places - on the earth and under the earth.
And the eventual answer to the acceptable petitions of godly people for God to act result in
the changing of the age and the seven trumpets of the end times.

Include this in "the big picture". it is not any old ordinary prayers which effect this reaction. It is prayers that include the fragrance, aroma, and scent of Jesus Christ in the living of the praying ones. Surely that includes the departed souls seen back in the fifth seal underneath the altar.

You believe "underneath the altar" corresponds to being in heaven.
I differ here. This "underneath the altar" signifies underneath the earth.

These in Paradise in the heart of the earth, the comfortable portion of Hades, are resurrected and raptured
to the throne before the 3.5 years of the great tribulation. They are included in the corporate man-child caught
up to the throne of God in Revelation 12 before the GT of a thousand two hundred and sixty days.

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days. (Rev. 12:5,6)

The picture is too big to be seen in one little post.
It is too big to be totally seen in anything less than eternity.

 

[RocK Guy]

The altar of sacrifice is the one that John saw the souls of those who had died for their testimony.

That would mean the dead saints are still here on earth as disembodied people who's spirits are hanging around here on earth and that is in error to believe that because when people die they do not stay on earth as ghosts

The alter being spoken of is in Heaven. The holy of holies the children of Israel had here on earth is a facsimile of the real thing which is in Heaven.,

Revelation 14:18, Revelation 16:7, and Revelation 8:5 just say it's an alter so there's no reason to think this is not where the saints that had been martyred are located at. And, there's no reason to believe the Father has a bunch of different alters in His presence anyway as different things can be done at the same alter.

I do interpret the souls beneath the altar at the fifth seal to be underneath the earth.

After the resurrection of Jesus Christ only those that are not saved go in to hell as there is no more Abraham's bosom since Jesus gained victory over death, hell, and the grave.

If Jesus did not with authority, then they would be stuck in the upper regions of hell like it was before Jesus was raised from the dead and was victorious over all forms of death

I would also object if someone suggested that the golden altar in which prayers ascend to God in the Holy Place

If God is there, it's the holiest place in existence.

 

[oikonomia]

That would mean the dead saints are still here on earth as disembodied people who's spirits are hanging around here on earth and that is in error to believe that because when people die they do not stay on earth as ghosts

I am not sure I am in good sequence here. But I offer some response.

I don't consider the martyred saints in paradise as "hanging around." This sounds way too flippant for God preparing a place
for the souls of martyred before resurrection and transfiguration.

I also do not consider the concept of our brothers and sisters giving up their lives for the testimony as "ghosts" hanging around.
In the OT the spirit of Samuel was at rest in Sheol. And angels brought his soul up in spite of the witch of Endor disobeying God by
trying to practice neocramancy which was forbidden.

But at King Saul's request angels (seen as "gods" - elohim) accompanied Samuel UP from underneath the earth where he was
not "hanging around" but at divine rest.

And the king said to her, Do not be afraid. But what do you see? And the woman said to Saul, I see some divine being coming up out of the earth. ( 1 Sam. 28:13)

And he said to her, What is his appearance? And she said, An old man is coming up; and he is wrapped in a cloak. Then Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid him homage. (v.14)

And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up? And Saul said, I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines wage war against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, neither through the prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I shall do. (v.15)

The godly prophet was a departed soul without the body resting underneath the earth. Not much room for argument here.
The only other issue is your theory that Samuel with other OT saints were taken to heaven when Jesus ascended to heaven.

I would ask you then why was not David ascended to heaven at that time also? For the Scripture you revere and love says
David has not ascended into heaven.

Acts 2:34a- For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at My right hand

So Jesus ascended into heaven but David did not by the time of Peter's message in Acts 2.
I would teach that both Samuel and David as well as other saints of the OT along with saints of the NT age
are where Samuel still is - resting in prepraration for final resurrection and glorification.

Now I want to be exactly like you and exalt the resurrection of Christ highly.
But God unfolds His will in stages and gradually.

Underneath the altar in the fifth seal refers to this place underneath the earth.
That is how I would teach. I've been persuaded that this is the better interpretation of the meaning of the fifth seal.

The alter being spoken of is in Heaven. The holy of holies the children of Israel had here on earth is a facsimile of the real thing which is in Heaven.,

In this verse where would the outer court be - in heaven or on the earth?

Revelation 11:1,2 - And there was given to me a reed like a rod, and someone said, Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship in it. And the court which is outside the temple cast out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.

The temple and the altar (golden incense altar) are preserved along with those who worship there.
But the court which is "outside the temple" would correspond to the outer court.

The bronze altar where the animals were slain were slain in the outer court corresponding to "outside the temple."

The spiritual significance is that on earth there is still the trampling opposition of the nations and the persecution of
the martyrs ON EARTH. Those who have been raptured to worship in the temple in heacen are safe for those agonizing
forty-two months.

The meaning here in Revelation 11:1,2 is that earthly Jerusalem with earthly Jerusalem temple will be given over to the
Gentiles to be trampled upon by Antichrist and the Gentiles.

This has to be in brief.
Just before the forty-two months the stronger remnant of saints living on earth and saints having died in the past
will be resurrected and raptured before the three and one half years of the great tribulation. It is at that time
those saints watching vigilantly on earth plus those who died in such a life together will be taken up to the throne
in heaven with their resurrected and glorified bodies.

Saints living who were not raptured remain as the larger part of God's saints to pass through the forty-two months
with some protection from God as they are still on the earth.

In Revelation 11:1,2 those under the measuring are fully possessed by God in heaven worshipping.
Outside the temple in heaven is the earth, the earthly temple in Jerusalem considered now the outer court.

So in the fifth seal "underneath the altar" should mean underneath the earth.

And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had.

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Master, holy and true, will You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

And to each of them was given a white robe; and it was said to them that they should rest yet a little while, until also the number of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed, even as they were, is completed. (Rev. 6:9-11)

Revelation 14:18, Revelation 16:7, and Revelation 8:5 just say it's an alter so there's no reason to think this is not where the saints that had been martyred are located at. And, there's no reason to believe the Father has a bunch of different alters in His presence anyway as different things can be done at the same alter.

Two altars mentioned in the construction of both the tabernacle and the temple is not just "a bunch of different altars".
Do you disagree that there was more than one altar in the tabernacle and in the temple?

The location of each altar is significant.
The golden altar where the incense ascended before the Holy of Holies has its significance.
The bronze altar where the animals sacrifices were slain in the outer court has its significance.

Revelation 11:1,2 proves that the outer court is being used as a sign of earth, Jerusalem on earth, and its temple are.
And there underneath the altar are seen the souls - ie, underneath the earth, in Abraham's Bosom or Paradise
crying out for God's just vindication upon their murderers doing still the same thing above them on the earth.

After the resurrection of Jesus Christ only those that are not saved go in to hell as there is no more Abraham's bosom since Jesus gained victory over death, hell, and the grave.

This victory that Christ accomplished must be transmitted down from the Head of the church into the Body of the church.
That is why Paul says He has been made the head over all things TO the church.

And He subjected all things under His feet and gave Him to be Head over all things to the church, (Eph. 1:22)

Objectively Christ has done it all, nullified death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
Subjectively He awaits a critical mass of overcomers to be living exerperiencially in this as His body.

This outworking of Him transmitting His authority down from the Head TO the members of His Body is
an ongoing process which must reach a critical tiping point.

Part of the gradual arrival of that subjective aspect of the objective victory of Christ is in the martyrdom of believers
throughout the church age. And the faithfulness of witnesses living Him subjectively.

We should not mistake the gradualness of God outworking His will to a disbelief that He is Lord of all.
In stages, progressively, gradually, ongoingly until a climax He moves to bring in His kingdom and the New Jerusalem.

Do not mistake a belief in souls crying out underneath the earth for disbelief in Christ's objective victorious accomplishment.

If Jesus did not with authority, then they would be stuck in the upper regions of hell like it was before Jesus was raised from the dead and was victorious over all forms of death

I do not think of them as "stuck there" in that way. I think of them as like Samuel the prophet being relatively MORE with God and Christ
yet patiently waiting as a great cloud of witnesses for something to be concluded.

The appeasing them and encouraging them with robes must mean for them something has not yet been totally consummated.
They are to be patient as others are to bear testimony on earth as they did.

And to each of them was given a white robe; and it was said to them that they should rest yet a little while, until also the number of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed, even as they were, is completed. (Rev. 6:11)

If God is there, it's the holiest place in existence.

It is a good point.
God is in their spirit the human holiest of holies.
So in that sense surely without the distraction of a fallen body they are MORE in His presence even in Hades.
They are abroad from the body yet with the Lord.
They were in the body abroad (in this relative sense) from the Lord.

while we are at home in the body, we are abroad from the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6b)

Their patience is not in vain for full vindication and glorification is inevitable in the course of time.

 

[RocK Guy]

In this verse where would the outer court be - in heaven or on the earth?

That does not prove those that were killed for the gospel are not in Heaven with the Lord once they were killed.

Do not mistake a belief in souls crying out underneath the earth for disbelief in Christ's objective victorious accomplishment.

No mistake on my end as Christians go to be in the presence with the Lord when they die under the New Covenant.

You are confusing the new with the old covenant as it was under the old covenant that OT saints when to Abraham's bosom (upper region of hell) only because they could not be born again until after Jesus was raised from the dead.

You seem to be forgetting that once one becomes born again they are IN Christ so when they due they are still IN Christ which places them in Heaven with the Father after they die physically.

Glad to be able to help get all this sorted out.

 

[oikonomia]

That does not prove those that were killed for the gospel are not in Heaven with the Lord once they were killed.

During the time Peter is giving his gospel message David had not ascended into heaven. (Acts 2:34)

In your next post to me could you explain why OT saints were taken to heaven when Jesus ascended but David
was not?

No mistake on my end as Christians go to be in the presence with the Lord when they die under the New Covenant.

I have not said they do not go to the presence of the Lord upon dying.
I affirmed it.

I said along with the New Testament that to depart is to be with the Lord in a relatively encreased way.
What I said was that we could be more in the presence of the Lord and not be in Heaven.

You are confusing the new with the old covenant as it was under the old covenant that OT saints when to Abraham's bosom (upper region of hell) only because they could not be born again until after Jesus was raised from the dead.

I don't think this is the case. The meaning the Apostle Paul gives to Christ leading captive those taken captive in His
ascension is concerning "each one of us" including himself. He was not dead was he? He was not released from the tombs in Matthew 27:52.

Look carefully at Ephesians 4:7-9.

But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of the gift of Christ. (v.7)

Therefore the Scripture says, “Having ascended to the height, He led captive those taken captive and gave gifts to men.” (v.8)

(Now this, “He ascended,” what is it except that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth? (v.9)

1.) The audience is the living believers including Paul and his living co-workers -"each one of US"

2.) The THEREFORE is his application of the OT passage - "Therefore the Scripture says . . . "

3.) His use of the passage is not about tombs being opened and OT saints coming out and subsequently asending with Christ to Heaven.

4.) His use of the passage is about living saints being capture by the resurrected and ascended Christ to give them as gifts for
the building up of the Body of Christ expressed as churches on the earth.

Isn't it true that your belief that OT saints ascended to Heaven when Jesus rose and ascended based upon this passage?
But the way you use the passage is not the way the Apostle Paul employs the passage.
Which of you do you think I should follow? I think you should change your interpretation to match Paul's.

When Jesus ascended from the lower parts of the earth to Heaven David, Samuel, and the martyred saints remained there
"with the Lord" comfortable, resting further in Paradise.

He ascended leading living men and women to be His captives and then gifts for the ministry work.

He who descended, He is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens that He might fill all things.) (v.10)
And He Himself gave some as apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as shepherds and teachers, (v.11)
For the perfecting of the saints unto the work of the ministry, unto the building up of the Body of Christ, (v.12)

You seem to be forgetting that once one becomes born again they are IN Christ so when they due they are still IN Christ which places them in Heaven with the Father after they die physically.

Glad to be able to help get all this sorted out. View attachment 345685

I do like an assured and confident teacher of the word of God.

However, dear brother, the saints who are born again have the Lord WITH them, indwelling them, wherever they may be.

So "The Lord be with your spirit" (2 Timothy 4:22) would mean the Lord is WITH the living saints and WITH the "sleeping" saints who have died.

They are not only WITH the Lord when they die.
Christ said He would be WITH us even until the consummation of the age, living or having died. (Matthew 28:20)

For the sake of exalting His victory and indwelling life I do not want to change that into
IE. I will be with you once you die and go to Heaven.

What He said as His closing word in Matthew is - And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age.

This passage in 2nd Corinthians about the believers dying does not say they immediately go to Heaven.
But it does say if we should die we will be (more so) with the Lord being abroad from our physical body.

Therefore being always of good courage and knowing that while we are at home in the body, we are abroad from the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6)
(For we walk by faith, not by appearance) (v.7) —
We are of good courage then and are well pleased rather to be abroad from the body and at home with the Lord. (v.8)

 

[LoveofTruth]

During the time Peter is giving his gospel message David had not ascended into heaven. (Acts 2:34)

David was part of the Old Covenant they would go to Abraham’s Bosom , paradise when they died and be conscious after death in spirit. And the section in Acts is typifying Christ in further references.

And we read

Ecclesiastes 3: 21. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?”

In the new testament wecread

Hebrews 12: 22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,”

I have not said they do not go to the presence of the Lord upon dying.
I affirmed it.

I said along with the New Testament that to depart is to be with the Lord in a relatively encreased way.
What I said was that we could be more in the presence of the Lord and not be in Heaven.


I don't think this is the case. The meaning the Apostle Paul gives to Christ leading captive those taken captive in His
ascension is concerning "each one of us" including himself. He was not dead was he? He was not released from the tombs in Matthew 27:52.

Look carefully at Ephesians 4:7-9.

But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of the gift of Christ. (v.7)

Therefore the Scripture says, “Having ascended to the height, He led captive those taken captive and gave gifts to men.” (v.8)

(Now this, “He ascended,” what is it except that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth? (v.9)

1.) The audience is the living believers including Paul and his living co-workers -"each one of US"

2.) The THEREFORE is his application of the OT passage - "Therefore the Scripture says . . . "

3.) His use of the passage is not about tombs being opened and OT saints coming out and subsequently asending with Christ to Heaven.

4.) His use of the passage is about living saints being capture by the resurrected and ascended Christ to give them as gifts for
the building up of the Body of Christ expressed as churches on the earth.

Isn't it true that your belief that OT saints ascended to Heaven when Jesus rose and ascended based upon this passage?
But the way you use the passage is not the way the Apostle Paul employs the passage.
Which of you do you think I should follow? I think you should change your interpretation to match Paul's.

When Jesus ascended from the lower parts of the earth to Heaven David, Samuel, and the martyred saints remained there
"with the Lord" comfortable, resting further in Paradise.

He ascended leading living men and women to be His captives and then gifts for the ministry work.

He who descended, He is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens that He might fill all things.) (v.10)
And He Himself gave some as apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as shepherds and teachers, (v.11)
For the perfecting of the saints unto the work of the ministry, unto the building up of the Body of Christ, (v.12)


I do like an assured and confident teacher of the word of God.

However, dear brother, the saints who are born again have the Lord WITH them, indwelling them, wherever they may be.

So "The Lord be with your spirit" (2 Timothy 4:22) would mean the Lord is WITH the living saints and WITH the "sleeping" saints who have died.

They are not only WITH the Lord when they die.
Christ said He would be WITH us even until the consummation of the age, living or having died. (Matthew 28:20)

For the sake of exalting His victory and indwelling life I do not want to change that into
IE. I will be with you once you die and go to Heaven.

What He said as His closing word in Matthew is - And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age.

This passage in 2nd Corinthians about the believers dying does not say they immediately go to Heaven.
But it does say if we should die we will be (more so) with the Lord being abroad from their physical body.

Therefore being always of good courage and knowing that while we are at home in the body, we are abroad from the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6)
(For we walk by faith, not by appearance) (v.7) —
We are of good courage then and are well pleased rather to be abroad from the body and at home with the Lord. (v.8)

There is also no soul sleep taught in scripture. The body sleeps in the grave until the resurrection. But the spirit goes on upward and now to be with the Lord and wherever he is we are.

 

[oikonomia]

David was part of the Old Covenant they would go to Abraham’s Bosom , paradise when they died and be conscious after death in spirit. And the section in Acts is typifying Christ in further references.

And we read

Ecclesiastes 3: 21. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?”

I wish you and I could transfer our discussion about the alleged born again OT saints to another thread.

But as for Ecclesiastes 3:21 I read it as a question - "Who knows . . . ?"

That is not to say we will never be told by revelation anything about the departed.
I take Solomon's question to mean by personal experience of all of us under the sun, none can testify what will happen to us after we die.

New American Standard Bible
Who knows that the spirit of the sons of mankind ascends upward and the spirit of the animal descends downward to the earth?

Amplified Bible
Who knows if the spirit of man ascends upward and the spirit of the animal descends downward to the earth?

Contemporary English Version
Who really knows if our spirits go up and the spirits of animals go down into the earth?

 

[oikonomia]

There is also no soul sleep taught in scripture. The body sleeps in the grave until the resurrection. But the spirit goes on upward and now to be with the Lord and wherever he is we are.

Are you addressing me, oikonomia?

I didn't use the term "soul sleep" anywhere in this thread.
I did use the NT term sleeping as applied to the deceased Christians. (1 Thes. 4:13,14)

But we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who are sleeping, that you would not grieve even as also the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so also those who have fallen asleep through Jesus, God will bring with Him.

 

[oikonomia]

In the new testament wecread

Hebrews 12: 22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,”

This great passage though could not be used as evidence that now both OT and NT saints are living in heaven.

1.) You have come is spoken to living believers not dead ones. It is spoken to us today as well who are not dead.

2.) innumerable company of angels most likely include all of God's angels. Since angels accompanied Samuel up from his rest in
Hades's pleasant section (Abraham's bosom) , they would be included.

Paul was caught away into Paradise and heard unspeakable things too great for mortal men to utter.
This should mean perhaps angels proclaim fantastic things there. I have no reason to believe this
place is dull or drab.

And I know such a man (whether in the body or outside the body, I do not know; God knows),
That he was caught away into Paradise and heard unspeakable words, which it is not allowed for a man to speak. (2 Cor. 12:3,4)

3.) Of course all saints eventually have their destiniy in New Jerusalem or "the heavenly Jerusalem."
in lieu that we Christians have come to the new covenant we also have come to this city.

We can say we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem now just as sure as we can say we have come the
"the church of the firstborn ones" today while alive.

4.) Written in heaven can mean our names are recorded there. It doesn't have to mean we are there. (Luke 10:20)

However do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in the heavens.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Are you addressing me, oikonomia?

I didn't use the term "soul sleep" anywhere in this thread.
I did use the NT term sleeping as applied to the deceased Christians. (1 Thes. 4:13,14)

But we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who are sleeping, that you would not grieve even as also the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so also those who have fallen asleep through Jesus, God will bring with Him.

do you believe the Christians who die are conscious after death? and do you believe that the sleep implies soul sleep or they are not aware of anything after death?

I am asking this to examine your view of these things. I have talked to many seven day Adventist and even those in other groups that i do not agree with totally far away from my doctrine according to scripture. I am curious, what group do you belong to?, does your gathering have a religious name to it? if so what one. Some hide their affiliations with other groups in here. I have met some that are JWs or Mormons, or Seven Day Adventist etc, who teach the wrong doctrine of soul sleep. Just curious what you believe.

And what sleeps is the body in the grave, not the spirit or soul of a man. I believe that when a believer does they are conscious after death. Do you believe this?

 

[oikonomia]

do you believe the Christians who die are conscious after death? and do you believe that the sleep implies soul sleep or they are not aware of anything after deatth?

I believe that the departed souls are conscious and the Christians can even petition God.
The souls underneath the altar appear conscious enough.
Paul being caught away to Paradise heard unspeakable words. Someone had to conscious to hear.

These things we only have a glimpse of. And it is futile and even unhealthy to delve into speculation too much.
He has unveiled to us only so much that He deems necessary for us to know.

The things that are hidden belong to Jehovah our God; but the things that are revealed, to us and our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deut, 29:29)

I am asking this to examine your view of these things. I have talked to many seven day Adventist and even those in other groups that i do not agree with totally far away from my doctrine according to scripture. I am curious, what group do you belong to?,

I meet on the local ground as churches indentified only by locality. We are not denominational or non-denominational or enter
denominational. We refer to the churches as local churches. We hold Jesus Christ is the center and circumference of the body of Christ including you, me, all genuine believers throughout the church age and throughout the earth.

Some statement of faith and hope of the local churches and their purpose can be reviewed here:
Beliefs & Practices | The Local Churches

does your gathering have a religious name to it? if so what one. Some hide their affiliations with other groups in here. I have met some that are JWs or Mormons, or Seven Day Adventist etc, who teach the wrong doctrine of soul sleep. Just curious what you believe.

Our practice of receiving one another in spite of minor opinons is along the lines of Romans 14.
You can break bread with us if you think about death a particular way different from me. As long as we all
hold Jesus Christ as Lord.

That with one accord you may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore receive one another, as Christ also received you to the glory of God. (Rom. 15:6,7)

And what sleeps is the body in the grave, not the spirit or soul of a man. I believe that when a believer does they are conscious after death. Do you believe this?

Generally I believe that the body turns to dust. The immaterial part of man goes to Hades for now.
The saints of God are in Paradise, a pleasant part of Hades. This is temporary until resurrection, transfiguration, and rapture.

What I find that I'd like to examine more closely with you is not that matter.
But your tendency to make the incarnation and work of Christ rather an anti-climax.
I mean your way of saying Nicodemus had the indwelling Spirit while he was there perplexed over
Jesus teaching him about the new birth.

I've been re-reading some of your thoughts but just have not replied yet.
I'd like to but maybe on another dedicated thread.
I am in an special training this week and kind of pre-occupied.

Sometime we should talk about your Old Testament saints were born again concept a little more.
I hope you are praying for me as I am for you.

 

[LoveofTruth]

This great passage though could not be used as evidence that now both OT and NT saints are living in heaven.

1.) You have come is spoken to living believers not dead ones. It is spoken to us today as well who are not dead.

2.) innumerable company of angels most likely include all of God's angels. Since angels accompanied Samuel up from his rest in
Hades's pleasant section (Abraham's bosom) , they would be included.

Paul was caught away into Paradise and heard unspeakable things too great for mortal men to utter.
This should mean perhaps angels proclaim fantastic things there. I have no reason to believe this
place is dull or drab.

And I know such a man (whether in the body or outside the body, I do not know; God knows),
That he was caught away into Paradise and heard unspeakable words, which it is not allowed for a man to speak. (2 Cor. 12:3,4)

3.) Of course all saints eventually have their destiniy in New Jerusalem or "the heavenly Jerusalem."
in lieu that we Christians have come to the new covenant we also have come to this city.

We can say we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem now just as sure as we can say we have come the
"the church of the firstborn ones" today while alive.

4.) Written in heaven can mean our names are recorded there. It doesn't have to mean we are there. (Luke 10:20)

However do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in the heavens.

He says they are now come to …now present seated with Christ in heavenly places

And we read

2 Corinthians 5: 1. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”

And we are now in spirit seated with Christ and we shall all appear before God in heaven.

Ephesians 2: 6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:”