Where is "go to heaven" in the Bible?

[Clare73]

GEHENNA (Hebr.

; Greek, Γέεννα):​

By: Kaufmann Kohler, Ludwig Blau​

Nature and Situation.
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Soṭah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day. Yet opinions on this point vary. According to some sources, it was created on the second day; according to others, even before the world, only its fire being created on the second day (Gen. R. iv., end; Pes. 54a). The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell.

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

Thanks.

Gehenna was the permanent place of the doomed, while Hades with the temporary holding place until the Judgment.

 

[oikonomia]

Okay, so that is where the problem is.

There is confusion and textual mistranslation of "Hades" in the NT.
The Greek "Hades" of Ac 2:25-27 is from Ps 16:10, where the Hebrew word is "Sheol" (holding place of the dead; i.e., grave).
In Ac 2:25-27, Peter is declaring that Ps 16:10 prophesied of Christ, whom death could not hold in the grave, that he would not see corruption.

In Jesus usage of Hades (e.g., Rev 1:18) and in Rev 6:8, 20:13, 14, it refers to the temporary place of the doomed, the permanent place being Gehenna.

I think all you have shown is that Hades in the NT is the same thing as Sheol in the OT.
That is fine. Sometimes it was just called the grave. And Gehenna the city dump was a picture of eternal punishment
in the lake of fire.

But to the point of my OP-
I am curious why you have not answered my question to you.

What passage would you point to show that today, now there are people in heaven?
Should I take your silence in this to indicate you have no Scriptural evidence that some believers have "gone to heaven"?

There is shortage of sight into God's economy today. That economy being God bringing man into God and God into man.
This truth is veiled to many. In its place is going to a happy place. But this is the natural unenlightened tradition. It is difficult for Christians to drop this rather superstious thought to see that we areby transformation being united with the Triune God.

 

[oikonomia]

Why is there such a prevailing thought among people that in order to meet God
you must go into death? This makes God more the God of death rather than the God of life.

"Die and go to heaven" is a sterong traditional concept.

No one has shown me yet that God's intention is that man go to heaven to be there forever.

Our destiny as the saved is rather going to God.
And His purpose is that He indwell the saved.

I am not saying there is no heaven.
Neither am I saying some will temporarily be there.

But it is not desireable to God or man that the naked souls
of believers appear in heaven according to Paul's teaching in Second Corithians.

For also in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our dwelling place from heaven,
If indeed, being clothed, we will not be found naked.
For also, we who are in this tabernacle groan, being burdened,
in that we do not desire to be unclothed,
but clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. (2 Cor.5:2-4)

Today I do not believe there are any unclothed and "naked" souls in heaven.
All believers who are deceased are in Paradise under the earth awaiting resurrection.
In resurrection they will be clothed upon with a glorified resurrection body.

This to is not preparation to be up there in Heaven forever.
It is to unite, mingle, blend, and be in an incorporation of the divine and the human.

. . . clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. (2 Cor.5:2-4)

That is the saved swallowed up in the life of God.
The life of God is bubbling up from within as a gushing spring.

But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall by no means thirst forever; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into eternal life. (John 4:14)

And from without we look forward to the same life of God swallowing up the mortal into immortality.

we do not desire to be unclothed,
but clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. ( See 2 Cor.5:2-4)

 

[Clare73]

I think all you have shown is that Hades in the NT is the same thing as Sheol in the OT.

Not when there is a mistranslation (probably from the OT Greek Septuagint) of Sheol in Ps 16:10 as Hades in Ac 2:25-27.

That is fine. Sometimes it was just called the grave. And Gehenna the city dump was a picture of eternal punishment
in the lake of fire.

But to the point of my OP-
I am curious why you have not answered my question to you.
What passage would you point to show that today, now there are people in heaven?

Well, it's not a phrase that I am much given to, but where is Christ now? At the right hand of God. Is that heaven?
And Paul says that to be absent from the body (death) is to be present with the Lord (2 Co 5:8, Php 1:22-23).

So what do you think?

Should I take your silence in this to indicate you have no Scriptural evidence that some believers have "gone to heaven"?

They have gone wherever Christ is.
You tell me.

There is shortage of sight into God's economy today. That economy being God bringing man into God and God into man.
This truth is veiled to many. In its place is going to a happy place. But this is the natural unenlightened tradition. It is difficult for Christians to drop this rather superstious thought to see that we areby transformation being united with the Triune God.

 

[Berserk]

oikonomia: "The problem with that is that Paul didn't tell us he went up to Paradise.:

Arndt and Gingrich, the standard NT Greek dictionary, translates the expression "harpage eis," as "caught UP into." a translation that reflects the scholarly consensus.

oikonomia: "Paul says was caught away to these places. That he is speaking of two places is reasonable."

What you don't get is that the location of Paradise in the 3rd Heaven is a standard Jewish view shared by Paul (see e. g. 2 Enoch 8:1-3; Apocalypse of Moses 40:2). This identification decisively refutes your claim that Paul refers to 2 different places. His 2nd sentence is needed to specify the "unspeakable words" he heard there.

 

[oikonomia]

Not when there is a mistranslation (probably from the OT Greek Septuagint) of Sheol in Ps 16:10 as Hades in Ac 2:25-27.

Seventy scholars worked on the Septuagint. They were closer in time to the writing of the Hebrew Bible
than anyone today by a couple of thousand years plus. I don't know how casually I will accuse them
of a mistranslation.


You ask me what I think below about something.

Well, it's not a phrase that I am much given to, but where is Christ now? At the right hand of God. Is that heaven?
And Paul says that to be absent from the body (death)is to be present wit the Lord (2 Co 5:8, Php 1:22-23).

So what do you think?

Christ is at the right hand of God interceding for Christians as you say.
Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died and, rather, who was raised,
who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. (Rom. 8:34)

In the same book, the same chapter it says Christ is also in the believers.
But if Christ is in you, . . . (Rom. 8:10)

Christ is therefore in heaven at the right hand of God and
Christ is in those who have received Him.

Incidently, it seeme easier for the natural mind to think "Oh, I must, must go to be with Christ in Heaven.
to go to Heaven where Christ is is the most important thing."

The enlightened spiritual minded Christian graduates from this to see
how important it is that Christ lives in her or him. So they word mature to think "Oh, praise God. Christ actually lives in
me. WhereEVER I go what is paramount is that Christ lives in me, is now my life, and I must live by and through and unto Him.
I do not want to go ANYWHERE, even Heaven itself, without out having learn to experience - It is no longer I that live
but it is Christ who lives within me."

More Christians should ask themselves do they really want to be taken to somewhere they really don't want to be.
This has to be the lesson of Jesus warning us to "Remember Lot's wife."
The fact that her body was removed from the place under God's judgment was not enough.
Her inward HEART still remained in the place. This was exposed by her longing look back
to Sodom. Something in Sodom she missed. Her physical body may have been removed.
God saw that she had not been removed from Sodom in her heart.

Lot's poor wife became a pillar of salt - a monument of shame.

Let that be a sober lesson to all of us looking to be removed (whenever) to Heaven.

It will be in the same way on the day in which the Son of Man is revealed. . . .
. . . Remember Lot’s wife. (See Luke 17:30-32)

Concerning 2 Cor. 5:8 and Philippians 1:22-23 now.
To be with the Lord is a relative matter with degrees.
A saved person is with the Lord more than an unbeliever.

And Paul said to depart in death was for Him to be with the Lord.
This does not mean he was not with the Lord when he would be living.

We are of good courage then and are well pleased rather to be abroad from the body and at home with the Lord. (2 Cor. 5:8)
He is with the Lord and the Lord with him physically alive and with a body.
Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved? (2 Cor. 13:5)

If he and his co-workers should die and be unclothed of their bodies, away from their bodies they will be
with the Lord to a greater degree. It would be far better though he chooses to remain in the flesh for our advancement.
But if I am to live in the flesh, if this to me is fruit for my work, then I do not know what I will choose.
But I am constrained between the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for this is far better; (Phil. 1:22-23)

Sure, the believer who is alive is with the Lord. And when he dies he awaits resurrection in Paradise and is
relatively more with the Lord.

It is a mistake to assume that only by going to in Heaven can we be "with the Lord."

 

[Clare73]

Seventy scholars worked on the Septuagint.

Which they did in much haste, completing the OT in 70 days.

They were closer in time to the writing of the Hebrew Bible
than anyone today by a couple of thousand years plus. I don't know how casually I will accuse them
of a mistranslation.
You ask me what I think below about something.
Christ is at the right hand of God interceding for Christians as you say.
Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died and, rather, who was raised,
who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. (Rom. 8:34)
In the same book, the same chapter it says Christ is also in the believers.
But if Christ is in you, . . . (Rom. 8:10)
Christ is therefore in heaven at the right hand of God and
Christ is in those who have received Him.
Incidently, it seeme easier for the natural mind to think "Oh, I must, must go to be with Christ in Heaven.
to go to Heaven where Christ is is the most important thing."
The enlightened spiritual minded Christian graduates from this to see
how important it is that Christ lives in her or him. So they word mature to think "Oh, praise God. Christ actually lives in
me. WhereEVER I go what is paramount is that Christ lives in me, is now my life, and I must live by and throufhand unto Him.
I do not want to go ANYWHERE, even Heaven itself, without out having learn to experience - It is no longer I that live
but it is Christ who lives within me."

More Christians should ask themselves do they really want to be taken to somewhere they really don't want to be.
This has to be the lesson of Jesus warning us to "Remember Lot's wife."
The fact that her body was removed from the place under God's judgment was not enough.
Her inward HEART still remained in the place. This was exposed by her longing look back
to Sodom. Something in Sodom she missed. Her physical body may have been removed.
God saw that she had not been removed from Sodom in her heart.

Lot's poor wife became a pillar of salt - a monument of shame.

Let that be a sober lesson to all of us looking to be removed (whenever) to Heaven.

It will be in the same way on the day in which the Son of Man is revealed. . . .
. . . Remember Lot’s wife. (See Luke 17:30-32

Concerning 2 Cor. 5:8 and Philippians 1:22-23 now.
To be with the Lord is a relative matter with degrees.
A saved person is with the Lord more than an unbeliever.

And Paul said to depart in death was for Him to be with the Lord.
This does not mean he was not with the Lord when he would be living.

We are of good courage then and are well pleased rather to be abroad from the body and at home with the Lord. (2 Cor. 5:8)
He is with the Lord and the Lord with him physically alive and with a body.
Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved? (2 Cor. 13:5)

If he and his co-workers should die and be unclothed of their bodies, away from their bodies they will be
with the Lord to a greater degree. It would be far better though he chooses to remain in the flesh for our advancement.
But if I am to live in the flesh, if this to me is fruit for my work, then I do not know what I will choose.
But I am constrained between the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for this is far better; (Phil. 1:22-23)

Sure, the believer who is alive is with the Lord. And when he dies he awaits resurrection in Paradise and is
relatively more with the Lord.

It is a mistake to assume only by going to in Heaven can we be "with the Lord."

Which is an assumption I stated that I do not make.

 

[oikonomia]

What you don't get is that the location of Paradise in the 3rd Heaven is a standard Jewish view shared by Paul (see e. g. 2 Enoch 8:1-3; Apocalypse of Moses 40:2). This identification decisively refutes your claim that Paul refers to 2 different places. His 2nd sentence is needed to specify the "unspeakable words" he heard there.

It is interesting that you would want me to place the Apochraphal book of Enoch on the same level of authority as Second Corinthians.
Do you consult the Gospel of Thomas or the Apocalypse of Moses or the Gospel of Peter or other non-canonical (allbeit sometimes interesting) writings for your faith?

I hear appeals to please understand "Jewish thought" more than get the Bible's revelation.
Meanwhile the exhortation was that there were plenty of Jewish myths from which the believers should steer clear.
Concerning distracting teachings of some unsettling the faith of Christians -

. . . for which cause reprove them severely that they may be healthy in the faith,
Not paying attention to Jewish myths and the commandments of men who turn away from the truth. (Titus 1:13,14)

I am wary of teachers who say Bible reading Christians have to know more about "Jewish thinking" of those times
to understand the teaching and parables of Jesus. Maybe some of the "Jewish thinking" they say in indispensible to
grasping the teaching of Christ involves "Jewish myths" rather from which we should turn away.

I barely have enough time to mine the unsearchable riches of Christ in the God-breathed canonical letter of Ephesians.
Maybe, after apprehending the endless breadth and length and height and depth of the love of Christ I'll
use some time to master "Jewish thought" in Apocryphal writings.

All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are found in Christ.
In whom all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden. (Col. 2:3)

While the plethora of writings not recognized by God's Spirit guided people as the word of God, (the Apochraphal books)
are historically interesting our priority should be the thought of God over and above what we can glean of "Jewish thinking"
from Apochrtaphal books.

Concerning alternative renderings saying Paul was caught UP to the 3rd Heaven:

1.) First probably grammatically speaking it would be an acceptable translation
2.) That a presupposition that every place pleasant of God must be UP (the 3rd Heaven aka Paradise)
most likely influences some translators to read the Greek inserting that supposition into the text.
3.) Your appeal to a majority who render the passage that way is argument ad populum.

Ad populum rule hundreds of years ago would also argue that Justification was not by faith but
occured by paying indulgences or kissing the hand of the Pope of the Catholic Church.

You may run with the 3rd Heaven and Paradise being the same place Paul was caught UP to.
I rather think the conjunction AND signals that he is speaking of two experiences rather than one.

And consistent with Paul's panaramic complete view of the universe, God allowed him to
observe the thing highest in the 3rd Heaven and the things lowest beneath us in Paradise.
So Paul's insight was of the universe above to the maximum and below to the extent.

οἶδα ἄνθρωπον κ.τ.λ.] I know a man … who was snatched away. [Meyer's NT Commentary]

ἁρπαγέντα] the stated word used of sudden, involuntary raptures. See Acts 8:39; Revelation 12:5; 1 Thessalonians 4:17. The form of the 2d aorist belongs to the deteriorated Greek. See Thomas Mag. p. 424; Buttmann, I. p. 381.
[Meyer's NT Commentary]

GOD'S WORD® Translation
I know a follower of Christ who was snatched away to the third heaven

International Standard Version
. . . but God knows—that man was snatched away to the third heaven.

Young's Literal Translation
God hath known -- such an one being caught away unto the third heaven;

Smith's Literal Translation
. . . such a one having been carried off even to the third heaven.

Anderson New Testament
(. . . I know not: God knows ... was caught away to the third

 

[Berserk]

oikonomia: "It is interesting that you would want me to place the Apochraphal book of Enoch on the same level of authority as Second Corinthians.

I hate to break this to you, but modern evangelical scholars recognize that Paul's thought is substantially shaped by his contemporary Jewish culture, and so, he doesn't reject ALL his prior Jewish beliefs as a Pharisee when he becomes a Christian.
So when, as for this issue, we find a striking parallel between mainstream contemporary Jewish thought and Paul's statements, we can safely assume that Paul embraces this particular standard Jewish teaching.

oikonomia: "I hear appeals to please understand "Jewish thought" more than get the Bible's revelation."

In fact, biblical Judaism itself is subject to many cultural shifts and progressive revelation and nowhere enumerates the number of heavens, as Paul and his Jewish contemporaries do.
.

 

[Der Alte]

Thanks.

Gehenna was the permanent place of the doomed, while Hades with the temporary holding place until the Judgment.

When I looked up Hades in the Jewish Encyclopedia I was referred to this article.
Sheol (

):
By: Emil G. Hirsch
Hebrew word of uncertain etymology (see Sheol, Critical View), synonym of "bor" (pit), "abaddon" and "shaḥat" (pit or destruction), and perhaps also of "tehom" (abyss).
—Biblical Data:
It connotes the place where those that had died were believed to be congregated. Jacob, refusing to be comforted at the supposed death of Joseph, exclaims: "I shall go down to my son a mourner unto Sheol" (Gen. xxxvii. 36, Hebr.; comp. ib. xlii. 38; xliv. 29, 31). Sheol is underneath the earth (Isa. vii. 11, lvii. 9; Ezek. xxxi. 14; Ps. lxxxvi. 13; Ecclus. [Sirach] li. 6; comp. Enoch, xvii. 6, "toward the setting of the sun"); hence it is designated as (Deut. xxxii. 22; Ps. lxxxvi. 13) or (Ps. lxxxviii. 7; Lam. iii. 55; Ezek. xxvi. 20, xxxii. 24). It is very deep (Prov. ix. 18; Isa. lvii. 9); and it marks the point at the greatest possible distance from heaven (Job xi. 8; Amos ix. 2; Ps. cxxxix. 8). The dead descend or are made to go down into it; the revived ascend or are brought and lifted up from it (I Sam. ii. 6; Job vii. 9; Ps. xxx. 4; Isa. xiv. 11, 15). Sometimes the living are hurled into Sheol before they would naturally have been claimed by it (Prov. i. 12; Num. xvi. 33; Ps. lv. 16, lxiii. 10), in which cases the earth is described as "opening her mouth" (Num. xvi. 30). Sheol is spoken of as a land (Job x. 21, 22); but ordinarily it is a place with gates (ib. xvii. 16, xxxviii. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 10; Ps. ix. 14), and seems to have been viewed as divided into compartments (Prov. vii. 27), with "farthest corners" (Isa. xiv. 15; Ezek. xxxii. 23, Hebr.; R. V. "uttermost parts of the pit"), one beneath the other (see Jew. Encyc. v. 217, s. v. Eschatology). Here the dead meet (Ezek. xxxii.; Isa. xiv.; Job xxx. 23) without distinction of rank or condition—the rich and the poor, the pious and the wicked, the old and the young, the master and the slave—if the description in Job iii. refers, as most likely it does, to Sheol. The dead continue after a fashion their earthly life. Jacob would mourn there (Gen. xxxvii. 35, xlii. 38); David abides there in peace (I Kings ii. 6); the warriors have their weapons with them (Ezek. xxxii. 27), yet they are mere shadows ("rephaim"; Isa. xiv. 9, xxvi. 14; Ps. lxxxviii. 5, A. V. "a man that hath no strength"). The dead merely exist without knowledge or feeling (Job xiv. 13; Eccl. ix. 5). Silence reigns supreme; and oblivion is the lot of them that enter therein (Ps. lxxxviii. 13, xciv. 17; Eccl. ix. 10). Hence it is known also as "Dumah," the abode of silence (Ps. vi. 6, xxx. 10, xciv. 17, cxv. 17); and there God is not praised (ib. cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 15). Still, on certain extraordinary occasions the dwellers in Sheol are credited with the gift of making knowntheir feelings of rejoicing at the downfall of the enemy (Isa. xiv. 9, 10). Sleep is their usual lot (Jer. li. 39; Isa. xxvi. 14; Job xiv. 12). Sheol is a horrible, dreary, dark, disorderly land (Job x. 21, 22);
and Form.
Hebrew word of uncertain etymology (see Sheol, Critical View), synonym of "bor" (pit), "abaddon" and "shaḥat" (pit or destruction), and perhaps also of "tehom" (abyss).
—Biblical Data:
It connotes the place where those that had died were believed to be congregated. Jacob, refusing to be comforted at the supposed death of Joseph, exclaims: "I shall go down to my son a mourner unto Sheol" (Gen. xxxvii. 36, Hebr.; comp. ib. xlii. 38; xliv. 29, 31). Sheol is underneath the earth (Isa. vii. 11, lvii. 9; Ezek. xxxi. 14; Ps. lxxxvi. 13; Ecclus. [Sirach] li. 6; comp. Enoch, xvii. 6, "toward the setting of the sun"); hence it is designated as

(Deut. xxxii. 22; Ps. lxxxvi. 13) or

(Ps. lxxxviii. 7; Lam. iii. 55; Ezek. xxvi. 20, xxxii. 24). It is very deep (Prov. ix. 18; Isa. lvii. 9); and it marks the point at the greatest possible distance from heaven (Job xi. 8; Amos ix. 2; Ps. cxxxix. 8). The dead descend or are made to go down into it; the revived ascend or are brought and lifted up from it (I Sam. ii. 6; Job vii. 9; Ps. xxx. 4; Isa. xiv. 11, 15). Sometimes the living are hurled into Sheol before they would naturally have been claimed by it (Prov. i. 12; Num. xvi. 33; Ps. lv. 16, lxiii. 10), ***

SHEOL - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

 

[Der Alte]

Which they did in much haste, completing the OT [LXX] in 70 days.

Source?

 

[Berserk]

Clare73: "Gehenna was the permanent place of the doomed..."

Jesus' preferred word for "Hell" is the Jewish term "Gehenna," a common term for "Hell" in ancient rabbinic Judaism. So the meaning of this word must be sought in its ancient rabbinic usage. This usage demonstrates that rabbinic "Gehenna" is foundational for the later doctrine of Purgatory. To quote one Jewish site:

"For the most part the rabbis did not believe souls would be condemned to eternal punishment. "The punishment of the wicked in Gehenna is twelve months," states Shabbat 33b, while other texts say the time-frame could be anywhere from three to twelve months."

Similarly, Jesus uses the expressions "few blows" and "many blows" to limit postmortem punishment based on how much spiritual knowledge the condemned had in this life (Luke12:47-48). This punitive imagery, especially "few blows," implies a finite limit to postmortem judgment and therefore ultimate release. Accordingly, Jesus uses the image of a debtor's prison to illustrate postmortem punishment in Gehenna, adding "Truly I tell you, you will never get out UNTIL YOU HAVE PAID THE LAST PENNY (Matthew 5:25-26 par. Luke 12:57-59)." Once the debt is paid, release follows. Here Jesus uses His standard formula, "Truly I say to you," which always applies to our relationship with God, never to secular matters like beating the rap to avoid prison. A similar reference to Gehenna as a debtor's prison is implied in Jesus' parable in which the unforgiving servant is handed over to the torturers only "until he should pay all his debt (Matthew 18:34)." The prospect of postmortem release from Gehenna provides context for Jesus' declaration, "If I am lifted up from the earth , I will draw ALL people to myself (John 12:32)."

The reference to "aionios" punishment" in Matthew 25:46 must be interpreted in the light of this teaching. Sinners remain in "aionios" punishment only as long as they refuse to repent. Remember, "aionios" need not mean "eternal," as various NT examples demonstrate.

 

[oikonomia]

oikonomia: "It is interesting that you would want me to place the Apochraphal book of Enoch on the same level of authority as Second Corinthians.

I hate to break this to you, but modern evangelical scholars recognize that Paul's thought is substantially shaped by his contemporary Jewish culture, and so, he doesn't reject ALL his prior Jewish beliefs as a Pharisee when he becomes a Christian.

I would expect that the writers of the NT were not totally unenfluenced by their contemporary culture.
The miracle of Inspiration is that Paul was still used by God "to complete the word of God"

I became a minister according to the administration of God having been given me toward you,
to complete the word of God, (Col. 1:25, Berean Literal Bible)

What should we be doing as disciples of Christ? Should we be hunting out as much as we can about
his surrounding Jewish culture? How about we focus on the revelation of God given to him for us.

You see this distraction to the word of God by endevours to master knowledge about the Jewish cultural
thinking of the apostle's time becomes what he warned Timothy about to avoid.

But avoid profane, vain babblings, for they will advance to more ungodliness, (2 Tim. 2:16)

Disrespect for historical study is not meant by me. But I am showing "going to heaven" is a leavening of curruption
corrupting the truth. Godliness is the goal of coming back from this cultural and traditional sloppy reading of the New Testament.
I get the feeling that a few posters want to protect the idea of "going to heave". Yet they do not do so straightfowardly but instead raise
side issues. I detect this is a kind of murmuring underneath to save the traditional thinking about heaven going.

Again, as the church was declining Paul warned of teachers wandering away into "paying attention" to "Jewish myths".
The preoccupation of Christ's servants to mastering first century Jewish thinking of all kinds ushers in distraction from
the truth of revelation given for the building up of the church.

Not paying attention to Jewish myths and the commandments of men who turn away from the truth. (Titus 1:14)

Aren't you saying to me "Pay attention to all these surrounding Jewish concepts more."?

As the apostle aged he was not discouraged as he saw creeping in of distracting teachings.
But he warned Titus, and Timothy, and us godliness would suffer because of unhealthy teaching.

If anyone teaches different things and does not consent to healthy words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the teaching which is according to godliness, (1 Tim. 6:3)

He knew the power of godliness which is God manifest in the flesh. And that not only in Christ but in the house of God
where Christians must develope through healthy teaching to behave as God-men in the church of God.

But if I delay, I write that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the house of God,
which is the church of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth.
And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: . . . (1 Tim. 3:15,16)

It is all about living by the life of the living God. This was the economy of God
Paul did not deviate from. And this close to his departure commanded his junior co-workers
to pay attention to. He called in "healthy teaching" which results is godliness.

He discouraged them from paying more attention to Jewish myths that may have legitimately filled
the thoughts of the Jews.

Even as I exhorted you, when I was going into Macedonia,
to remain in Ephesus in order that you might charge certain ones not to teach different things
Nor to give heed to myths and unending genealogies,
which produce questionings rather than God’s economy, which is in faith. (1 Tim. 1:3,4)

The preocuppation with teaching "myths (especially Jewish) and unending genealogies" is not and exhaustive list.
It is only a representative list.

And today Christians who are befuddled by sloppy natural minded concept of "going to heaven"
can be a detriment to "godliness." They too easily assume that to be "born again" means only
to receive a ticket of admittance to a future happy place Heaven.

A few of you seem eager to weaken the urgent call to wake up from this cotton candy teaching.
I feel subconsciously your sympathies for it prompt you to object -
Ie. "But don't forget the surrounding Jewish thought in Paul's day. Pay more attention to the
first century cultural Jewish mindset. This is so important. We cannot even understand the New Testament
without it."

No, we believers need to pay more attention to healthy teaching of God's life being born into man.
That is that His life may grow in us resulting in the building of the house of the living God.
This living house of the living God is the pillar and base of the truth.

So when, as for this issue, we find a striking parallel between mainstream contemporary Jewish thought and Paul's statements, we can safely assume that Paul embraces this particular standard Jewish teaching.

You have not shown us where the teaching of "going to Heaven" is in the New Testament.
You have handwaved about "contemporary Jewish thought" which I suspect is a kind of objection
to exposing the unbiblical and unhealthy contempory evangelical going along with this superstitious thought.

oikonomia: "I hear appeals to please understand "Jewish thought" more than get the Bible's revelation."

In fact, biblical Judaism itself is subject to many cultural shifts and progressive revelation and nowhere enumerates the number of heavens, as Paul and his Jewish contemporaries do.
.

Who cares?

How about we care much more for "born again" leading to growth of God's life in man rather than a tricket to "Admit One" to
Heaven. Many ancient religions ended with man going to a happy place.

The revelation of the Bible is God dispensing His life into man that man BECOME the city of God mingled with man.
God wants to be "man-nized" while making man "God-ized."

And the local church must be a farm GROWING Christ's life in man for the BUILDING of His dwelling place on earth.
The gowth of the divine life on the farm is the producing of living stones for the building of His house.

I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the growth. (1 Cor. 3:6)
For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s cultivated land, God’s building. (v.9)

 

[keras]

Heaven is God’s home. Earth is our home. The Lord Jesus, as the Son of God and the Son of man will eventually make Heaven and Earth as one.

Ephesians 1:10…everything in heaven and earth will be brought together under one Head; Jesus Christ.
Just as the separation between heaven and earth will be forever demolished through Jesus, so too will the separation between God and mankind be removed.

Revelation 21:3 Now: the dwelling of God is with men and He will live with them.\
Zechariah 9:10 The Lord will banish all the things of war, He will proclaim peace to the nations and His rule will extend to the ends of the earth.

God’s plan is to make all things as one, to remove the separation between the spiritual and the physical worlds. This is the ultimate plan of God and the finale of secular history. When God walked with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, it was then a part of heaven, but when they sinned, angels with flaming swords kept mankind out and we await its re-establishment on earth. Revelation 21 to 22


Will those who will live with Jesus during His Millennial reign, have spiritual bodies? No, because there will be many still alive at His Return, Matthew 24:31 and when He was resurrected, He still ate and drank in a body suited for earthly living. John 21:12

Revelation 20:4-6…the souls of those who were killed for their faith in God, were resurrected and they will reign with Christ for 1000 years… On earth!

People who think there is a rapture to heaven, where they believe they will have heavenly, spiritual bodies have failed to understand that God’s purpose from the beginning of humankind, was to establish a place and a people who would display His glory and to share eternal life with Christ. Hebrews 2:14-15, Revelation 22:14



For now, we face daily challenges in our lives and on the world scene, but the knowledge that a regenerated earth is coming should reassure us and give us the right perspective. There is a purpose in all that happens, the injustices and suffering will not last, they are part of the testing process we all must go through. God will make everything right, rewarding those who stood firm and trusted Him in all the trials and temptations of this world. 1 Corinthians 16:13

The people who will live with Jesus in the Millennium period, are being prepared now. Remember, it may not be the proud and self-promoting people who will be chosen, it’s the meek who will inherit the earth. Matthew 5:5 Those people will then be under the benevolent government of the resurrected saints, with Jesus as King.

Will it be boring to be good all the time? It is wrong to assume sin is exciting and righteousness isn’t. That is the Devil’s lie, his basic strategy, but the reality is that sin robs us of fulfilment, sin doesn’t expand life, it shrinks it and sin’s emptiness inevitably leads to boredom. Where there’s fulfilment, where there’s beauty, where we won’t have to struggle for existence and as God’s mysteries unfold to us, that is the ultimate human utopia: ON EARTH.

 

[trophy33]

Where in the Bible do people get the concept of God wanting the saved to "go to heaven" forever?

I say the degree that people do not see what the church is is indiicated by how strong is
their belief that God wants them to "go to heaven" to be in heaven forever.

Demonstrate that "going to heaven" forever as God's desire for the saved is biblical teaching.

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
J 3:13

My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.
J 14:2

Jesus came from heaven and prepared places for us in heaven to be with him in heaven.

Also:
But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ
Phil 3:20

Or:
I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained [the context is "in heaven"]
Rev 6:9

And other such places.

 

[oikonomia]

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
J 3:13

Thankyou myst33 for joining. But I will now gently critque why bogus concepts still enfluence your defense of heaven going.

First is it noted that you did not complete the words of the Lord Jesus in John 3:13.
And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven. [?!?]

This rather mysterious verse is hard to locate where Jesus is. At face value He is saying that while He is on earth
speaking to his earth bound audience He is not altogether absent from being in Heaven.
He is the only one who goes UP to Heaven because He descended DOWN from Heaven, and incidently He is IN Heaven
as He speaks right then.

So far from this being an encouragement for Christians to want to go to heaven, it is instead encouragement
to be living on earth yet in a heavenly atmosphere within. The exhortation of a pioneering Paul teaches virtually the same.

If therefore you were raised together with Christ, seek the things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
Set your mind on the things which are above, not on the things which are on the earth.
For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. (Col. 3:1-3)

Now for the building of the local church this is critical. And this is healthy teaching.
This is healtheir than what you see in typical Christian book stores section on books on the subject of Heaven.
Next time you visit a Christian book store notice how many books there are about Heaven / Heaven going.

But Colossians 3:1-3 continues healthy teaching how setting the mind on Christ in our spirit is having a heavenly mind.
It is also simultaneously powerful spiritual weaponary to put to death earthy fallen sinful nature of the old man for the building
up of the church.

When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory.
Put to death therefore your members which are on the earth: fornication,
uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and greediness, which is idolatry; (vs. 4,5)

Let us continue in another post.

 

[oikonomia]

My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.
J 14:2

This is a big misconception of the Lord's meaning in John 14. No He is not talking about going to Heaven for two thousand yearsa
to prepare luxurious mansians for the saved. Do you think the Son of God has been hanging chandaliers, unrolling long beautiful rugs,
and hanging curtains "preparing a place" for us in heavenly mansions?

According to John's Gospel Christ's body was the temple of God, the house of God where God lived.
He said that if they destroyed God's temple in three days He would raise it again.

Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Then the Jews said, This temple was built in forty-six years, and You will raise it up in three days?

But He spoke of the temple of His body.
When therefore He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this,
and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken. (John 2:19-22)

Now in John 14 we are intruduced to His mystical Body, the Father's house. This is how we should
understand His teaching here.

Do not let your heart be troubled; believe into God, believe also into Me. (John 14:1)

The God the Father is enterable. Jesus being the embodiment of the Triune God is enterable.
For three and a half years the disciples marveled at a man living IN God and God living IN Him.
Now on His way to the cross He assures them that He is not the ONLY one who can enjoy this union with God.
If that were the case He would have TOLD them so from the beginning.

In My Father’s house are many abodes; if it were not so, I would have told you; (v.2a)

Jesus now tells them how He will go to the cross to an eternal redemption allowing man to enter into God and ALSO
have an abode in the house of God.

In My Father’s house are many abodes; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. (v.2)

Christ goes to His death to prepare a way for them to become abodes many in the living house of God which is also the mystical Body of Christ. The plural noun "abodes" is the same Greek word as the singular "abode" in verse 23.

Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him. (v.23)

The Triune God will come to the lovers of Christ and make an abode with them. The divine "We" of the Triune God will come not
for preparing luxury mansions in heaven but a mutual dwelling place within men. Then it comes to pass. He is not the only
man so united with the Father. Through His going to Calvary to keep the Father's will to the uttermost, He prepares a way
for sinners to be redeemed that they may be indwelt by the Triune God.

This is for the ultimate house of God the New Jerusalem the consummation of the church. She is the mutual eternal
minging, union and enterweaving of the Triune God with the tripartate man. That is God and man in incorporation even
as the Son of God, the Lord Jesus is the incorporation of God in humanity and humanity in God.

So He went to His redemptive death on the cross and come again to them in resurrection that where He is we might be also.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you to Myself, so that where I am you also may be. (v.3)

Do you dare drop now the traditional superstitious notion of Jesus going to Heaven to fix up mansions and come again to take
all believers there up in Heaven? He goes to the cross to die and come again in victorious resurrection preparing that where He is
(in God and God in Him) we may be also.

Jesus came from heaven and prepared places for us in heaven to be with him in heaven.

This is the old natural mind superstitiously misunderstanding John14. You have picked it up by tradition.

The place He goes to prepare for us is in the Triune God. The place is a living place. And He is the living way into
that living place.

Thomas said to Him, Lord, we do not know where You are going; how can we know the way?
Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me. (vs. 5,6)

What is the destination of the way? It is a living Person - the Father.
What is the way to this destination? It is also a living Person, the Son of the Father.

No one comes to the living Person as his or her "organic" divine / human mingling except through the Redeemer the living way and truth and divine life. I am the way and the reality and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.

He went to the cross to prepare a place in God for man.
He comes again in resurrection to become our life.
"[T]he last Adam became a life giving Spirit." (1 Cor. 15:45b)

As the divine "We" comes to make an abode with us, Christ the way, the truth, and the divine indwelling life
mingles man with God and God with man for the building of the Father's house.

Also:
But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ
Phil 3:20

Do you use this to prove our eternal home is up in Heaven?
As his audience is on earth their citizenship has its ORIGIN in Heaven.
Form heaven now, the One who lives in them will ALSO come to them. He is the Savior.
And He comes not to take them up to heaven forever but to establish His kingdom on the earth.

They eagerly await the coming of the Savior Jesus from heaven.

Or:
I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained [the context is "in heaven"]
Rev 6:9

And other such places.

Do you use Revelation 6:9 to prove "underneath the altar" means in the 3rd Heaven?
We may discuss this error in more detail in another post.

Briefly here I would tell you "underneath the altar" where the souls of Christian martyrs were seeb by John
was underneath the EARTH. That would be souls in Paradise below. That would be those who above on the earth's
surface gave their lives on the altar of their consecration. For their consecrated lives on earth they lost their lives.
Patiently, underneath the earth, ie."underneath the altar" they await thier vindication.

In Revelation the Holy of Holies is in heaven and the holy place and the outer court are on the earth.
Underneath the altar means underneath the earth the place of their sacrifice.

And there was given to me a reed like a rod, and someone said, Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship in it. And the court which is outside the temple cast out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.

The "altar" here is the golden incense altar, because it is with the temple belonging to the Holy of Holies (Heb. 9:3,4)

And after the second veil, a tabernacle, which is called the Holy of Holies,
Having a golden altar and the Ark of the Covenant . . .

It was immediately right before the seperating viel of the Holy of Holies.
Though it was not physically in the Holy of Holies its closest relationship made is BELONG to the Holyof Holies.

In John's vision it is in heaven protected not on earth where the outer court of the earth
(in Jerusalem) is trampled upon by the opposing nations for 42 months.

The bottom line - the other altar, the brass altar for sacrifice was in the outer court was on earth. Underneath the THAT brass altar of sacrifice means underneath the earth. There the souls of the killed saints await their vindication in Paradise.

 

[oikonomia]

The astutue reader of the above MAY be able to derive from it evidence that there are indications of people in heaven.
But I will await to see if anyone catches it.

Preemptively though I will prove that Revelation 11 does not speak of people in heaven now today.
Rather it indicates people taken to heaven to worship up there temporarity during the 42 months
of the future great tribulation.

Furthermore, they do not live their forever. Rather the accompany the victorious Christ as His bridal army
back down to the earth with Him at the battle of Armaggeddon (Revelation 19).

Let us not be too distracted though from, the Father's house meaning the mingling of God and man to
produce the eternal city/temple as a dwelling place of God.

Today the church must receive the revelation that she is the habitation of God in spirit - God building her by
the growth of Christ within His people.

For through Him we both have access in one Spirit unto the Father.
So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone;
In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;

In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit. (Eph.2:18-22)

 

[keras]

Next time you visit a Christian book store notice how many books there are about Heaven / Heaven going.

I have Randy Alcorn's book: Heaven, [2004]
He makes the case that we never do go to live in heaven, which I agree with. The belief that humans can live there, is false and is in fact; a Satanic lie.
We have the Commission, as per Matthew 28:20 and we must proclaim the Gospel until Jesus Returns.
Then we will live with Him for the Millennium, on earth and after that: God will come to us on the New earth for Eternity Revelation 21:1-7

 

[keras]

There the souls of the killed saints await their vindication in Paradise.

This shows how entrenched the idea of a heavenly life is. But the Bible never says people; the martyrs, will have conscious life in heaven, their souls are kept under the Altar in heaven and they are allowed to cry out at times, thats all. Revelation 6:9-11