Wheat & Tares, Good Fish and Bad Fish

[Kokavkrystallos]

Matthew 13:24-30,
"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

Jesus tells the multitudes of people this parable, then He explains it to His disciples:
"He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." (Matthew 13:37-43)

We see that both are growing together, and we see this presently in this world. Wickedness like a weed is even overtaking goodness. Not that it can defeat goodness, but it is saturating every segment of society. Our world is so much LOOSER than it was even 30 years ago, and 300 years ago was so much LOOSER than say, the 1950s and so on. The Bible predicted "But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived." (2 Timothy 3:13)

We see the same principle at work in the parable of the net, which is pretty self explanatory:
Matthew 13:47-50,
"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Now let's focus on 2 things here:

1) In the parable of the wheat and tares the angels are commanded in regard to the tares, or weeds, to "bind them."

2) In the parable of the net the angels are to "sever the wicked from among the just."

The whisked shall be BOUND in that, they are wicked and unrepentant: therefore the only recourse is to bind them to be handed over to Gods righteous judgment. This will also include vast multitudes of professing Christian church members who have never been born again, or have in the "latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron" (1 Timothy 4:1-2)

They shall be SEVERED from among the just. Christ shall return to take the elect, and there shall be a severing, as well as a binding: "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." (Matthew 24:40-42)

We see an ominous admonition at the end of Revelation - "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." (Revelation 22:11)

Oh people, I would admonish you this day to not let it reach that point in the history of this world without making sure your salvation and your soul right with God. That means repentance from any and all sin. No more justifying of sin, whether it's a moral sin in regards to sexuality, or something like telling lies, or drunkenness, or filthy communication from your mouths. I have seen such a disgusting example set forth by so many who will tell me they are saved, they supposedly know Christ, but in works they deny Him, and they take His Holy name in vain by living contrary to the blessed Gospel, and they bear bitter, and rotten, and sour fruit: for Jesus said, "By their fruits ye shall know them!" (Matthew 7:20)

There needs to be some serious trembling and healthy fear of Almighty God in the land, and in the churches! The old thunder, and the fire, and the Holy storm needs to be unleashed from the pulpit, that perhaps people at ease in Zion: that is, comfortable in their pet version of Christianity, be awakened, and seek and turn to Jesus with all their hearts.
And in society, people need brought in to the Masters house, and sit at His table, and feast on His Word. Let it be as in days of old when saloons closed, and gambling halls ceased to operate because people were converted and there were no more customers for these dens of iniquity!

Revelation 14:14-20,
"And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

This is NOT an ALLEGORY, nor something to be spiritualized away as some inner work, with no ramifications in the physical world. Christ will return as assuredly as He said He would, and He shall send those angels, and the wicked shall be BOUND, and SEVERED from among the just, and where they go is into the winepress of the wrath of God, which in Revelation 19:15 Jesus Himself in all His power and majesty, "treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." Not only the wrath, but the fierceness and wrath: a double whammy you do not want any part of!
You want to be wheat, not weeds. You want to be Salmon, not Eel.*
* Eel are considered unclean in Scripture, and their blood is toxic. An Eel would have been one of the fish that were cast away.

Romans 11:22, "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off"
And there's the perseverance of the saints right there. Be sure you are in Him, growing in grace, and being in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting the coming of the day of God.... (2 Peter 3:11-22)

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

it is refreshing to see someone quoting Jesus in the proper way and even more so to know the proper meaning,

Thank you!

 

[PloverWing]

@Kokavkrystallos : Noting that this is the Liberal forum on CF, do you genuinely identify as Liberal? Is there a question here that you want to discuss with your fellow Liberal Christians?

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

@Kokavkrystallos : Noting that this is the Liberal forum on CF, do you genuinely identify as Liberal? Is there a question here that you want to discuss with your fellow Liberal Christians?

I was once an ultra liberal in my faith, in moralities, in worship, and in general lifestyle. I was the drunken preacher of righteousness, who still bore fruit despite my own hypocrisy. I was the Samson, the David, and the Solomon - in their sinful follies.

The LORD saved me and led me into His holiness in the beginning, which I strayed from: Thus I was called back into separation from the world and to walk in His holiness, and to speak the Word of God truthfully before any and all with whom I once had to do. This includes not just liberal, but several denominations as well: Pentecostal, Assembly of God, Church of God, Baptist of many flavors, Episcopalian, Salvation Army, Presbyterian, Methodist, SDA, Congregational, Charismatic, Non Denominational, Inter-denominational, Catholic, Messianic, Calvary Chapel...

Somehow I have never been to a Lutheran church, though I've read Luther, and interacted with some Lutherans here.

I have no particular question to discuss. Do you have any questions about the topic?

 

[PloverWing]

1. On safe spaces:

The various Faith Groups forums on CF (like WWMC-liberal, Semper Reformanda, etc.) and Christian Communities forums (STR-Anglican, Wesley's Parish-Methodist, etc.) are forums for people who belong to those groups (Liberal, Reformed, Anglican, etc.) to discuss topics amongst other people who also belong to that same group. So, Liberals can discuss with other Liberals, Methodists with other Methodists, and so on.

I've seen you post in lots of different safe-space groups, and it seems odd to me that you genuinely identify as Liberal AND Messianic AND Presbyterian AND Anglican AND Baptist AND United Church of Christ AND the other safe-space groups you've posted to, all at the same time.

In some cases, I see that you're quoting Anglicans in the Anglican forum, New England Congregationalists in the UCC forum, etc., so maybe that makes some sense. But the original post in this thread doesn't seem to be from a Liberal point of view. If the point of the post is to tell people in that forum that they're wrong, then the post should be in one of the more general forums, like General Theology.

2. On the phrase "ultra liberal":

"Liberal Christianity" has (unfortunately) several different meanings. I've heard it used to mean a) openness to higher criticism and other forms of modern scholarship; b) placing priority on social justice (Rauschenbusch, e.g.); c) placing priority on inner spiritual experience (Schleiermacher's "creature-feeling", e.g.); or d) a tendency to deny the miraculous. When you said you were ultra liberal, did you mean one of these, or something else?

If you just meant "I sinned a lot", then please use a different term, since that's not what "Liberal" means to the people who inhabit the WWMC forum.

3. On the parable of the Wheat and the Tares:

I hear this parable as cautioning against being too hasty to destroy things and people that we think are sinful, because the virtuous and the sinful can grow together, looking very similar, and becoming tangled with one another. God has the wisdom to uproot what is sinful without destroying what is good, but humans don't have God's wisdom.

Yes, we should strive for virtue and avoid sin. Of course we should. But we have to bring a level of humility to the process, an awareness that we will make mistakes. Wheat can look like tares, and tares can look like wheat, and we aren't always wise enough to discern the difference.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

1. On safe spaces:

The various Faith Groups forums on CF (like WWMC-liberal, Semper Reformanda, etc.) and Christian Communities forums (STR-Anglican, Wesley's Parish-Methodist, etc.) are forums for people who belong to those groups (Liberal, Reformed, Anglican, etc.) to discuss topics amongst other people who also belong to that same group. So, Liberals can discuss with other Liberals, Methodists with other Methodists, and so on.

I've seen you post in lots of different safe-space groups, and it seems odd to me that you genuinely identify as Liberal AND Messianic AND Presbyterian AND Anglican AND Baptist AND United Church of Christ AND the other safe-space groups you've posted to, all at the same time.

In some cases, I see that you're quoting Anglicans in the Anglican forum, New England Congregationalists in the UCC forum, etc., so maybe that makes some sense. But the original post in this thread doesn't seem to be from a Liberal point of view. If the point of the post is to tell people in that forum that they're wrong, then the post should be in one of the more general forums, like General Theology.

2. On the phrase "ultra liberal":

"Liberal Christianity" has (unfortunately) several different meanings. I've heard it used to mean a) openness to higher criticism and other forms of modern scholarship; b) placing priority on social justice (Rauschenbusch, e.g.); c) placing priority on inner spiritual experience (Schleiermacher's "creature-feeling", e.g.); or d) a tendency to deny the miraculous. When you said you were ultra liberal, did you mean one of these, or something else?

If you just meant "I sinned a lot", then please use a different term, since that's not what "Liberal" means to the people who inhabit the WWMC forum.

3. On the parable of the Wheat and the Tares:

I hear this parable as cautioning against being too hasty to destroy things and people that we think are sinful, because the virtuous and the sinful can grow together, looking very similar, and becoming tangled with one another. God has the wisdom to uproot what is sinful without destroying what is good, but humans don't have God's wisdom.

Yes, we should strive for virtue and avoid sin. Of course we should. But we have to bring a level of humility to the process, an awareness that we will make mistakes. Wheat can look like tares, and tares can look like wheat, and we aren't always wise enough to discern the difference.

I've read many authors and try to post them in respective categories, but I also use their works in general. In many cases it's easier to quote someone than repeating what's already been said, especially when the way they've worded it hit the point right on.

The virtuous and sinful most certainly do and will grow together in this world, until the time when Christ sends the angels to do their work in separation. However, we are admonished no to be unequally yoked with unbelievers in 2 Corinthians 6. We should pray for discernment and wisdom as James says, if we lack wisdom, pray for it. And wisdom also comes with maturity, aging, etc - but not always. Job's younger friend was wiser than his other 3 friends, and God was not displeased with him.

I meant ultra liberal in that there are what I'd term ultra liberal who condone sin of the most abominable kind, and not only condone, but perform it. Case in point: Pastors in same sex unions, what they call a marriage. Ministers who assist children in affirming another gender other than what they were born with. Now when I was liberal I did not partake in these sins, but I also did not point them out, and by my silence and acceptance without admonishing the error I was equally guilty, and I repent of that.

There was a time in my life I'd have been part of the crowd that took over part of Seattle, if I'd been there. There's also a time in my life I may have been part of January 6th uprising at the Capitol, in my early 30s when I was quite radical. That wasn't liberal though: I'd been lured into the ultra conservative nationalistic fervor in my mid to late 20s, which I now see as pure idolatry.

I desire to proclaim Jesus Christ and His righteousness, in a world where all too often "another Jesus" has been taught (Gal. 1:6-9)

 

[PloverWing]

I meant ultra liberal in that there are what I'd term ultra liberal who condone sin of the most abominable kind, and not only condone, but perform it. Case in point: Pastors in same sex unions, what they call a marriage. Ministers who assist children in affirming another gender other than what they were born with. Now when I was liberal I did not partake in these sins, but I also did not point them out, and by my silence and acceptance without admonishing the error I was equally guilty, and I repent of that.

This, of course, is not a question of condoning sin, but rather of disagreeing about whether particular actions are sins. We could ask the question a different way: Is it a sin for a church to expel members who are gay or gender nonconforming? and, once again, Christians would disagree about the answer.

We might do better to discuss questions where there is more agreement. For example, is it sinful to profit from the labor of underpaid workers? Is it sinful to exclude people from jobs or from neighborhoods on account of their ethnicity or race or gender? Liberal theology has important things to say on questions like these.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

This, of course, is not a question of condoning sin, but rather of disagreeing about whether particular actions are sins. We could ask the question a different way: Is it a sin for a church to expel members who are gay or gender nonconforming? and, once again, Christians would disagree about the answer.

We might do better to discuss questions where there is more agreement. For example, is it sinful to profit from the labor of underpaid workers? Is it sinful to exclude people from jobs or from neighborhoods on account of their ethnicity or race or gender? Liberal theology has important things to say on questions like these.

Go to the latest topic I posted and it shows the Bible is clear on what actions are sin.

I'd say a church welcome all, but if anyone is living contrary to scripture in blatant sin, they must be excluded from communion, and acting in any leadership position, and that is scriptural. 1 Corinthians 5 deals with the immoral brother who has his father wife and Paul says expel him for a time, till he repents.

Yes, it is sinful to profit from the labor of underpaid workers (and in America we all do who buy Chinese products, sadly: for there is slave labor used.) If someones qualified for a job give them the job. Race or gender shouldn't come into play, unless it's an extremely physical job only a man can do, and even there is some wiggle room.