What does it mean to speak the truth in love?

[faroukfarouk]

Funny and sad story. We had in our fellowship body a young couple who had recently come to Christ. About the same time the body hired a man to be associate pastor (big mistake but another story) So the new believers had an issue with the associate pastor and asked us how to handle it. We pointed them to Matt. 18 and told them to follow God's word on the matter. They didn't want to because "it would go badly". To which we responded, obedience to God and prayed for them.

WEll, eventually another couple found out there was a problem and instead of following Matt. 18 they skipped steps and before anyone knew what was going on there was a meeting with elders and others, an outburst, lies told, etc. It was very ugly indeed. Among other things we were reprimanded for suggesting Matt. 18 as the model by which to deal with the issue because it "wasn't a sin issue" (it really was, but again another story).

But the funny thing was, if the couple had followed Mat. 18 it would have ended peacefully without everyone knowing the situation and there wouldn't have been any issue. Because they went out of the biblical model things got really ugly.

Lesson to learn...God's way is always best!

Broadcasting issues immediately all around a congregation is not the way to do it!

Often sanctified patience all round ought to cover things, to be able to sort them.

 

[razzelflabben]

Broadcasting issues immediately all around a congregation is not the way to do it!

Often sanctified patience all round ought to cover things, to be able to sort them.

yep...the root of the problem was that the associate was/is a very prideful man who was not willing to have anything of his sins known, so we were targeted because we knew and for no other reason. Because we knew he had to "hurt" us by spreading all kinds of nasty stuff which got the church involved and so it goes. Point being Matthew 18 is a picture of how to speak the truth in Love according to God's ways.

 

[AlexDTX]

Funny and sad story. We had in our fellowship body a young couple who had recently come to Christ. About the same time the body hired a man to be associate pastor (big mistake but another story) So the new believers had an issue with the associate pastor and asked us how to handle it. We pointed them to Matt. 18 and told them to follow God's word on the matter. They didn't want to because "it would go badly". To which we responded, obedience to God and prayed for them.

WEll, eventually another couple found out there was a problem and instead of following Matt. 18 they skipped steps and before anyone knew what was going on there was a meeting with elders and others, an outburst, lies told, etc. It was very ugly indeed. Among other things we were reprimanded for suggesting Matt. 18 as the model by which to deal with the issue because it "wasn't a sin issue" (it really was, but again another story).

But the funny thing was, if the couple had followed Mat. 18 it would have ended peacefully without everyone knowing the situation and there wouldn't have been any issue. Because they went out of the biblical model things got really ugly.

Lesson to learn...God's way is always best!

That is, unfortunately, all too common. The world system says to go to the top. The Kingdom says go directly to the source. Too many believers would rather complain to leadership than to face someone directly and speak with them. This is one of the problems I have with organized religion. It encourages the ways of the world instead of the ways of the Kingdom.

 

[AlexDTX]

yep...the root of the problem was that the associate was/is a very prideful man who was not willing to have anything of his sins known, so we were targeted because we knew and for no other reason. Because we knew he had to "hurt" us by spreading all kinds of nasty stuff which got the church involved and so it goes. Point being Matthew 18 is a picture of how to speak the truth in Love according to God's ways.

Just out of curiosity, was this associate pastor a young man in the Lord? When I say "young" I mean under 10 years of knowing the Lord. I have seen this happen often, too. Ordaining inexperienced men, who have not been tried by the Lord and seasoned, into leadership position contrary to the admonition of Scriptures.

 

[razzelflabben]

Just out of curiosity, was this associate pastor a young man in the Lord? When I say "young" I mean under 10 years of knowing the Lord. I have seen this happen often, too. Ordaining inexperienced men, who have not been tried by the Lord and seasoned, into leadership position contrary to the admonition of Scriptures.

Depends on who you talk to and what you believe salvation is....I have heard the man claim he gave his life to Christ in high school...which he is in his early 40's this happened about 7 years ago...that being said he was living in open unrepentant sin most of his life until some other friends talked him into coming to church and giving up some of his sinful lifestyle. I would say that was maybe 7 -10 years before that. After things broke loose at the church he left in anger and within oh maybe 5 years he had an affair and tore his family apart.

Point being I think the modern church does a huge disservice to people by claiming that all you have to do is say the sinners prayer to be saved when scripture says that one must believe with the heart and our assurance of this salvation is LOVE/aka HS working in our lives.

He professed but showed no evidence of a belief unto salvation...how would you interpret that?

 

[AlexDTX]

Depends on who you talk to and what you believe salvation is....I have heard the man claim he gave his life to Christ in high school...which he is in his early 40's this happened about 7 years ago...that being said he was living in open unrepentant sin most of his life until some other friends talked him into coming to church and giving up some of his sinful lifestyle. I would say that was maybe 7 -10 years before that. After things broke loose at the church he left in anger and within oh maybe 5 years he had an affair and tore his family apart.

Point being I think the modern church does a huge disservice to people by claiming that all you have to do is say the sinners prayer to be saved when scripture says that one must believe with the heart and our assurance of this salvation is LOVE/aka HS working in our lives.

He professed but showed no evidence of a belief unto salvation...how would you interpret that?

I am in agreement with you. If the leadership followed the directions of the Scriptures, he would not have been placed in that position. The qualifications listed are husband of one wife, leads his family, gentle, patient, apt to teach, etc. For many groups these things are not even considered.

 

[razzelflabben]

I am in agreement with you. If the leadership followed the directions of the Scriptures, he would not have been placed in that position. The qualifications listed are husband of one wife, leads his family, gentle, patient, apt to teach, etc. For many groups these things are not even considered.

There were many qualifications that he didn't have. The pastor now sees that, not sure about the rest of the church...funny thing though, the man himself confessed to my husband that he wasn't qualified according to scripture. It was a very ugly mess to say the least.

 

[tturt]

Think that churches generally don't seem to apply "And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;" I Thess 5:12

One of the main ways to know them that "labor among you" is to be together outside the church building (you know when we don't have on our Sunday best). We're to know them and vice versa. Observing how family members interact which can be very revealing especially in stressful situations.

 

[razzelflabben]

Think that churches generally don't seem to apply "And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;" I Thess 5:12

One of the main ways to know them that "labor among you" is to be together outside the church building (you know when we don't have on our Sunday best). We're to know them and vice versa. Observing how family members interact which can be very revealing especially in stressful situations.

Word of caution for everyone not just you...the church has it's problems but most of them came from growing from about 100 to over 300 in the course of one Sun. because of that growth they didn't know who to put in roles and who not to and instead of listening to the HS they freaked out and panicked and ended up causing more harm than good. I'm not defending them mind you, they should have known better but I am saying it is not just that they didn't listen to God and so they are a bad church, there is a bit more to the whole story and they should serve as a cautionary tale to everyone to wait for the Lord no matter the situation. At least some are learning their lessons but another situation is coming up fast and we will see if enough of them learned the valuable lesson of waiting on the Lord.

And just for the record...amen to your post. I simply took your comments as an opportunity to expand a moment not to disagree or challenge what you said.

 

[AlexDTX]

Word of caution for everyone not just you...the church has it's problems but most of them came from growing from about 100 to over 300 in the course of one Sun. because of that growth they didn't know who to put in roles and who not to and instead of listening to the HS they freaked out and panicked and ended up causing more harm than good. I'm not defending them mind you, they should have known better but I am saying it is not just that they didn't listen to God and so they are a bad church, there is a bit more to the whole story and they should serve as a cautionary tale to everyone to wait for the Lord no matter the situation. At least some are learning their lessons but another situation is coming up fast and we will see if enough of them learned the valuable lesson of waiting on the Lord.

And just for the record...amen to your post. I simply took your comments as an opportunity to expand a moment not to disagree or challenge what you said.

Well said, razzeldazzel. On the bright side, he works all things for good for those who love the Lord. The great beauty of salvation is the amazing ability of God to turn bad into good. Not to say that we should not do what God wants first, but thank you Lord for making our messes into something better.

 

[razzelflabben]

Well said, razzeldazzel. On the bright side, he works all things for good for those who love the Lord. The great beauty of salvation is the amazing ability of God to turn bad into good. Not to say that we should not do what God wants first, but thank you Lord for making our messes into something better.

amen I am always amazed at the good God brings out of some of the most incredible messes.

 

[faroukfarouk]

amen I am always amazed at the good God brings out of some of the most incredible messes.

John's First Epistle brings out the miracle of the initiative of Divine love.

 

[razzelflabben]

John's First Epistle brings out the miracle of the initiative of Divine love.

I could tell stories of my own as well. We don't always know what good God is working but we can be sure He is working it nonetheless...love the example of Joseph as well. Gen. 50:20 is a powerful reminder

 

[faroukfarouk]

I could tell stories of my own as well. We don't always know what good God is working but we can be sure He is working it nonetheless...love the example of Joseph as well. Gen. 50:20 is a powerful reminder

The Lord Jesus Himself said: 'What I do thou knowest not now, but thou shalt know hereafter' (John 13.7).

 

[razzelflabben]

The Lord Jesus Himself said: 'What I do thou knowest not now, but thou shalt know hereafter' (John 13.7).

amen...but how exciting when He does show us at least part of what He is doing. I think He sometimes shows us so that when He doesn't show us we might still have faith that He is working good.

 

[faroukfarouk]

amen...but how exciting when He does show us at least part of what He is doing. I think He sometimes shows us so that when He doesn't show us we might still have faith that He is working good.

Possibly so. Faith and God's sovereignty are the keys.

 

[razzelflabben]

Possibly so. Faith and God's sovereignty are the keys.

amen

 

[tturt]

posted: "I simply took your comments as an opportunity to expand a moment not to disagree or challenge what you said."

No problem. Sometimes I assume things - like folks would want to get The Holy Spirit's direction on which church to attend, what service they can be including whose to be in leadership etc.

 

[razzelflabben]

posted: "I simply took your comments as an opportunity to expand a moment not to disagree or challenge what you said."

No problem. Sometimes I assume things - like folks would want to get The Holy Spirit's direction on which church to attend, what service they can be including whose to be in leadership etc.

we all should want that leading and in our current situation we have gone to great lengths to follow the HS direction rather than our own "feelings" but sometimes it's a learning process and we sometimes forget to let God teach us how to do that.

I am really enjoying your posts...thanks.

 

[faroukfarouk]

we all should want that leading and in our current situation we have gone to great lengths to follow the HS direction rather than our own "feelings" but sometimes it's a learning process and we sometimes forget to let God teach us how to do that.

I am really enjoying your posts...thanks.

Yes, "Thy will be done" goes far beyond feelings.