VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[keras]

in Revelation 10, the mighty angel declares that in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he first sounds his trumpet, a period of time begins which the mystery of God will be finished. The mystery of God is to take the kingdoms of this world out from under Satan's control, to be replaced by the nations of the earth being under the Kingdom of God and his Christ.

But can you not see that at the time of the Seventh Trumpet, Rev 11:15-18, it is during the period that Satan has world control?
It isn't until the Seventh Bowl is poured, does Jesus Return and destroys the attackers at Armageddon and chains up Satan. Rev 16:16-17

Thinking that what the 24 Elders say at that time, happens then, is error and an impossibility.

Revelation 10:7....at the sound of the Seventh Trumpet, the hidden purpose of God will have been fulfilled. REBible, the superior translation.
This doesn't mean its all over, or that Jesus will Return at that point.

 

[Douggg]

But can you not see that at the time of the Seventh Trumpet, Rev 11:15-18, it is during the period that Satan has world control?
It isn't until the Seventh Bowl is poured, does Jesus Return and destroys the attackers at Armageddon and chains up Satan. Rev 16:16-17

The souding of the seventh angel marks the beginning of the end for Satan. When cast down to earth in Revelation 12:12, he has great wrath knowing his time is short.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

During that time, he will be a terror. But when Jesus returns and Satan is bound in chains and cast into the bottomless pit, he will be a terror no more.

Satan when cast down to earth will incarnate the statue image of the beast. At Jesus's return, Jesus causes the statue-image to go up in flames, turned to ashes, exposing Satan there on the temple mount - for everyone to see.

Ezekiel 28:
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

[dfw69]

This is your belief, but I and many other Christians disagree,

It seems to me they are mostly messianic Christians or law abiding servants that reject the faith in the promised rapture to heaven

as for Jesus to remove His people from the earth is unprecedented and conflicts with what we are told of God's plans for our future.

There are 2 plans for two specific people ….the Israelites have a destiny with the Lord but the church has a destination to heaven to become heavenly citizens

As is Prophesied, there is coming soon, a terrible day when the Lord will send His fiery wrath, that will devastate the Middle East and change the world.

No I do not see that at all in scripture… I see many nations under the Ac and FP gathering at har meggido to wipe out the inhabitant of Israel only to be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming to save them from total annihilating and that’s definitely not happening anytime soon

Then we Christians will travel to, Psalms 107, and live in the holy Land. Isaiah 35:1-10, Zechariah 8:1-8, +

The elect are to be gathered by the heavenly angels Keras so they can come to Jerusalem where Jesus will be visible for all to see but this does not take place in our lifetime

This is what will happen, all as clearly stated in the Bible.

For the Israelites in the future

You can reject this truth, but at least you have been informed of the alternative to the rapture and will know what does happen is from the Lord.

I know your prophetic view somewhat so we will see if you understood Gods words correctly … personal I feel you are missing the mark … it is what it is….

And even if what you say does take place it will not be the will of the Lord but from the will of man planning this scheme to create a (false) messianic age

This would be the very reason wrath is predicted to fall upon those who do such things …

…If man in high places creates wars famines and plague drought earthquakes etc in the name of the Lord because it is written do you not think it’s an abomination to do such things and blame the Eternal? Will they not reap the wrath to come for the deceptions and lies and chaos committed over the years?

 

[keras]

The souding of the seventh angel marks the beginning of the end for Satan.

So then; you agree that the time of the Seventh Trumpet, Rev 11:15-17, is not when Jesus Returns and enters upon His Millennium reign.
Now get on and rewrite your wrong charts. Better still: chuck them all into the bin.

 

[keras]

It seems to me they are mostly messianic Christians or law abiding servants that reject the faith in the promised rapture to heaven

This is wakadoodle.
And there is no Promised rapture to heaven.

There are 2 plans for two specific people

There is only ONE people of God. John 17:20-23, Ephesians 2:11-18, +

No I do not see that at all in scripture

Very few do, or will be allowed to foresee the soon to happen great and terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath. The Sixth Seal event.
It is plainly Written in over 100 Prophesies, but the understanding of it is hidden to all but a few. Daniel 12:10b

The elect are to be gathered by the heavenly angels Keras so they can come to Jerusalem where Jesus will be visible for all to see but this does not take place in our lifetime

Psalms 107, Isaiah 35, etc; describe a different scenario, no angels involved. It will happen within the next few years.

For the Israelites in the future

Ethnic Jewish Israelis, will be gone, Jeremiah 12:14, and have no further part to play in the end times. The surviving remnant will join their Christian brethren. Jeremiah 50:4-5

And even if what you say does take place it will not be the will of the Lord but from the will of man planning this scheme to create a (false) messianic age

There is no 'false Messianic age'. That is an idea made up by the confused and deceived.
The 42 month period of world Satanic control, Rev13:5, is when Satan, thru the 'beast', will demand worship of himself. Maybe for some, he will be a Messiah, but that is not mentioned in the Bible.

This would be the very reason wrath is predicted to fall upon those who do such things …

The Lords wrath will fall on those who attempt to send nuke missiles into the holy Land. Ezekiel 7:14. Jeremiah 49:35-37, Isaiah 22:6a

 

[dfw69]

This is wakadoodle.
And there is no Promised rapture to heaven.

There is only ONE people of God. John 17:20-23, Ephesians 2:11-18, +

Very few do, or will be allowed to foresee the soon to happen great and terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath. The Sixth Seal event.
It is plainly Written in over 100 Prophesies, but the understanding of it is hidden to all but a few. Daniel 12:10b

Psalms 107, Isaiah 35, etc; describe a different scenario, no angels involved. It will happen within the next few years.

Ethnic Jewish Israelis, will be gone, Jeremiah 12:14, and have no further part to play in the end times. The surviving remnant will join their Christian brethren. Jeremiah 50:4-5

There is no 'false Messianic age'. That is an idea made up by the confused and deceived.
The 42 month period of world Satanic control, Rev13:5, is when Satan, thru the 'beast', will demand worship of himself. Maybe for some, he will be a Messiah, but that is not mentioned in the Bible.

The Lords wrath will fall on those who attempt to send nuke missiles into the holy Land. Ezekiel 7:14. Jeremiah 49:35-37, Isaiah 22:6a

Will see keras

 

[Antonio39]

Delusions:
Isaiah 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, no one answered; when I spoke, they did not hear: but they did evil before My eyes, and chose what displeased Me. Ezekiel 20:25

The prevalent error is in thinking that the Israel visible today is still the chosen of God. Wrong; they un-chose themselves, Matthew 27:25 and now it is every born again Christian, who belongs to the new nation of God's people. Matthew 21:43

With the rapture cult, their initial error is that of separating Israel and the Church, so they could still look for salvation to come to ethnic Jewish Israel, as a major tenet of their doctrine: Israel on earth, the Church in heaven. The pre-Trib rapture teaches removal to ensure survival from tribulation, but salvation has always been stated to redeem us from our fallen sinful state, in our earthly situation.

Acts 20:21 I know that when I am gone, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 2 Peter 2:1-3, 2 Timothy 4:3-4

The rapture idea is that God will “save us” from that which must occur – thus equating this supposed removal with salvation. After so many Christians saw the inadequacy and misappropriation of the verses used to promote Pre-Trib, the Post-Trib alternative was then built around surviving the tribulation – thus sustaining the illusion that survival is somehow related to salvation.

A strong delusion is mentioned in the New Testament: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this reason God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

This delusion has people looking forward to the 2nd Coming (in the so called rapture to heaven, Pre, Mid, or Post) believing in a rapture removal from the earth. The reality is, we experience His glorious salvation when we enter in to the blessed assurance that Christ’s Death means the penalty for our sin has been paid because of His sacrifice on the Cross. Ever since then, believers must trust in Jesus for their salvation and for their protection during the testing times to come. Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 31:23-24

And if the Lord does not save them, just as has happened to the millions of martyrs in the last 20 centuries, then we must die trusting in His promise of resurrection. Revelation 12:11, Revelation 13:10 Our souls will be kept under the heavenly Altar, Revelation 6:9-11, and Jesus will bring them with Him at His Return, then bring us to life again, to reign with Him for 1000 years. Revelation 20:4

Jesus said: take care that you be not deceived..... Seems that many have been rather careless!

So I get your point, but i think the bible is clear that the gentiles will be Included in Israel, that is the great multitude in Rev 7.14; that is saved out of the tribulation at Christ's second coming. Then from there,God's wrath will come on the earth, then christ returns, and gathers natural Israel, along with the Remaining nations.

 

[keras]

Will see keras

We sure will!
But the tragedy is how most will be surprised and shocked, not knowing which way to turn.....Luke 21:25-26.

 

[keras]

the bible is clear that the gentiles will be Included in Israel,

We Christians are the Israel of God. His faithful believers and Overcomers, as Jacob was.
Ethnic Israel faces Judgment and punishment very soon and only a remnant will survive.

christ returns, and gathers natural Israel, along with the Remaining nations.

Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thess 4:17, make it clear that when Jesus Returns, those gathered will be all who stood firm in their faith thru the trials and testing's of the Prophesied end time events.
That the majority of them will be descended from the 12 tribes of Israel, is Gods secret. Amos 9:9

 

[dfw69]

We sure will!
But the tragedy is how most will be surprised and shocked, not knowing which way to turn.....Luke 21:25-26.

Not in our lifetime..that is for the false messianic age in the future judgement for falsehood

 

[JulieB67]

No

 

[Douggg]

So then; you agree that the time of the Seventh Trumpet, Rev 11:15-17, is not when Jesus Returns and enters upon His Millennium reign.
Now get on and rewrite your wrong charts. Better still: chuck them all into the bin.

My chart show the seventh trumpet sounding just past the midway point of the seven years. So I don't need to change anything on the chart.

 

[keras]

Not in our lifetime..that is for the false messianic age in the future judgement for falsehood

How can you be sure? You do not know when your soul will be required of you.

My chart show the seventh trumpet sounding just past the midway point of the seven years. So I don't need to change anything on the chart.

The mid point of the final 7 years of this Church age, will be the day that the Anti-Christ 'beast' desecrates the new Temple.
This abominable act will trigger the Great Tribulation, commencing with the First Trumpet; Revelation 8:6-7....a third of the earth burned - by what seems to be effects of a close bypass of a comet.
So the Seventh Trumpet must be at least a year later, esp as the Fifth Trumpet takes five months. Revelation 9:5

Just the shoe horning in of an anytime 'rapture', in your charts makes them into gross error and confusion.

 

[Douggg]

The mid point of the final 7 years of this Church age, will be the day that the Anti-Christ 'beast' desecrates the new Temple.

The end of the church age will be when the rapture/resurrection event takes place. We don't know exactly when that takes place. Could be anytime in a window from right this very second, to right before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act.

This abominable act will trigger the Great Tribulation, commencing with the First Trumpet; Revelation 8:6-7....a third of the earth burned - by what seems to be effects of a close bypass of a comet.

No, the transgression of desolation triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord, the day of Christ. That's what is in 2Thessalonias2:1-4.

The transgression of desolation is an act. The abomination of desolation come a little later, and will be the statue image of the person after he has become the beast-king - which will be placed on the temple mount.

The first trumpet judgement will take place after that statue image is placed on the temple mount.... i.e after the great tribulation has begun.

Here is my chart of

(1) the end of the church age, i.e. the rapture/resurrection,
(2) then the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist which triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord,
(3) then the AoD statue image of the Beast (king) that triggers the great tribulation.

The person is the little horn before the 7 years 70th weeks starts. Then becomes the Antichrist, who confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years, which begins the false messianic age of peace and safety. And then, after around three years later, the peace and safety false messianic age ends, when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act, revealing himself as the man of sin, and triggering the beginning of the Day of the Lord..

Is killed for it and brought back to life to become the Beast (king). And the statue image of him placed on the temple mount, the AoD, triggering the great tribulation - as shown on my chart.

 

[keras]

The end of the church age will be when the rapture/resurrection event takes place.

A so called 'rapture resurrection' is a figment of your imagination. No such thing is Prophesied.

You still do not see how different the world will be after the Lord has sent His fiery wrath, as per Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12

 

[Douggg]

A so called 'rapture resurrection' is a figment of your imagination. No such thing is Prophesied.

keras, do a copy and paste, or just type out 1Thessalonians5:9-11 from the REB translation you are using. It is a thought-for-thought translation. Dynamic equilvancey is the fancy name for such translations.

The rapture/resurrection are in those verses.

kjv (a word for word translation). My comment in brackets_


9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep [the rapture/resurrection], we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.



Verse 11 is for Christians to comfort one another, by edifying one another that we are not appointed to the time of God's wrath.

"To obtain salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ" is talking about the redemption of our bodies, as our souls have already been redeemed.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Seems that most people don't believe in a pre trib hope. RIght yes if you believe in a pretrib hope, or no if you believe the word doesn't teach this

NO!!!!!!

 

[dfw69]

How can you be sure? You do not know when your soul will be required of you.

Yes death still reigns and is an unknown appointment

But we are not appointed the wrath to come upon His enemies but salvation is for His children .. We know who we are in Christ by faith.. We are the children of the light and of the day ..We are not asleep to His will and walking in darkness like those who are against Him who will be surprised when He comes as a thief in the nigh to punish His enemies..We belong to Him ..We are His family.. He has not left us as orphans but will return for us as promised

The mid point of the final 7 years of this Church age, will be the day that the Anti-Christ 'beast' desecrates the new Temple.

There is no new temple erected yet … No one is going to desecrate it anytime soon and if it is built soon, no one will erected an image of himself and claim to be the God of Israel to fulfill revelation

It’s not taking place during the church age keras ..I see in prophecy writings that it takes place after the false messianic

This abominable act will trigger the Great Tribulation, commencing with the First Trumpet; Revelation 8:6-7....a third of the earth burned - by what seems to be effects of a close bypass of a comet.
So the Seventh Trumpet must be at least a year later, esp as the Fifth Trumpet takes five months. Revelation 9:5

You should stop looking for these signs to take place, it’s a waist of time … and look up for your salvation to heaven is coming instead and keep the faith and believe the good news

 

[keras]

The rapture/resurrection are in those verses.

As I said; such a idea is just wishful thinking.
1 Thess 5:8-10 God has not destined us for retribution, but for the full attainment of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us, so that awake or asleep, we might live in company with Him. REBible

We will live in company with Him; WHEN He Returns! Not, as you and many falsely believe; before the glorious Return.

But what really refutes any fanciful notions of a 'rapture to heaven', is the many Prophesies which tell of our being on earth until the end. Revelation 12 makes this clear.

A KJV adherent making the REBible to be wrong, is just crazy and shows the extent of deception around.

 

[keras]

We are not asleep to His will and walking in darkness like those who are against Him who will be surprised when He comes as a thief in the nigh to punish His enemies.

So then: do you know what the Lord will use to destroy His enemies? And what we are told to do when it happens?

There is no new temple erected yet

But many Prophecies confirm that there will be a new Temple in Jerusalem, in the latter days.

It’s not taking place during the church age keras ..I see in prophecy writings that it takes place after the false messianic

Maybe the Church age will be over when the Anti-Christ has world control for the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. But the Temple has to exist before then, for the AC to desecrate it.

You should stop looking for these signs to take place, it’s a waist of time … and look up for your salvation to heaven is coming instead and keep the faith and believe the good news

You should stop thinking that the Lord will remove His Church from the earth. Such an idea is contrary to the whole Christian religion. Natthew 28:19-20