Veggies may not be that good for you

[trophy33]

84% of vegans/vegetarians leave their diet, the main reason is health.

On the other hand, 94% of carnivores report better health and high satisfaction.

 

[FireDragon76]

84% of vegans/vegetarians leave their diet, the main reason is deteriorating health.

On the other hand, 94% of carnivores report better health and high satisfaction.

I very much doubt that people who are seriously committed to Veganism give up the diet. Veganism involves a serious ethical commitment to avoid animal products, and the use or exploitation of nonhuman animals in all forms, as much as is practical.

I chose my diet for health reasons and ethics. A well-planned vegetarian or vegan diet isn't insufficient for human nutritional needs. However, I spent a little care and attention to making sure my diet would be nutritionally adequate and diverse.

An exclusively carnivorous diet isn't nutritionally adequate, as it lacks vitamin C. People have developed scurvy attempting to live off a carnivorous diet. Scurvy is a serious disease that can result in significant harm to ones health.

 

[trophy33]

I very much doubt that people who are seriously committed to Veganism give up the diet. Veganism involves a serious ethical commitment to avoid animal products, and the use or exploitation of nonhuman animals in all forms, as much as is practical.

Yeah, those "seriously committed to veganism" do it for various religious or so called ethical reasons (in reality, agriculture kills many more animals than husbandry and destroys natural ecosystems), not because the diet is great.

A well-planned vegetarian or vegan diet isn't insufficient for human nutritional needs.

How exactly does this miraculous well-planned vegan diet look like? The vast majority of vegans/vegetarians cannot figure it out.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yeah, those "seriously committed to veganism" do it for various religious or so called ethical reasons (in reality, agriculture kills much more animals than husbandry and destroys natural ecosystems), not because the diet is great.

It's not really debatable for folks that seriously look into the externalities associated with the indutsrial farming of livestock. It's an incredibly wasteful and polluting industry. The production of livestock accounts for more global greenhouse gas emissions than transportation.

How exactly does this miraculous well-planned vegan diet look like? The vast majority of vegans/vegetarians cannot figure it out.

I follow the World Health Organization guidelines for recommended nutrient intake. This is achievable on a plant-based diet for most of the world's population.

I eat 3-4 servings of legumes every day, 3-4 servings of grains like whole grain rice, barley, or farro, 3-5 vegetables like bell pepper, tomatoes, potatoes, sweet potatoes, carrots, and 2 servings of brassicans like kale, cabbage, or broccoli. I also use some oil, seeds, nuts, yeast, mushrooms, seaweed and aquatic plants as well, in small amounts. I have fruit as desert or snacks at least once a day. Every few days I also take a B-12 supplement, though most of my B-12 is from actual food. I've been eating this way for three years now and my blood lipids (cholesterol and triglycerides) are excellent, the lowest they have been in my entire life (I was a vegetarian when younger, but my lipids were not as good, because I ate alot of dairy).

 

[RDKirk]

Yeah, those "seriously committed to veganism" do it for various religious or so called ethical reasons (in reality, agriculture kills many more animals than husbandry and destroys natural ecosystems), not because the diet is great.

This is a salient point. Vegans start out talking about the heath benefits, but when those get debated, they fall back on philosophy every time because philosophy is the basis of their position...not health.

 

[trophy33]

It's not really debatable for folks that seriously look into the externalities associated with the indutsrial farming of livestock. It's an incredibly wasteful and polluting industry. The production of livestock accounts for more global greenhouse gas emissions than transportation.

Yeah, look seriously into how many animals die in fields, how many poisons are in waters, in soil, because of agriculture, how many birds die because of it, how insects and bees are dying out, how air is worsening, dusty, children are getting asthma and allergies, living near fields etc.

The landscape of countryside is ugly, destroyed by this basically dead land, animals have nothing to eat and nowhere to hide. Just unending fields of plowed land, everywhere one looks. Also the soil is getting so depleted, that tons of chemicals must be used for another run the next year. Its not sustainable at all.

I follow the World Health Organization guidelines for recommended nutrient intake. This is achievable on a plant-based diet for most of the world's population.

I eat 3-4 servings of legumes every day, 3-4 servings of grains like whole grain rice, barley, or farro, 3-5 vegetables like bell pepper, tomatoes, potatoes, sweet potatoes, carrots, and 2 servings of brassicans like kale, cabbage, or broccoli. I also use some oil, seeds, nuts, yeast, mushrooms, seaweed and aquatic plants as well, in small amounts. I have fruit as desert or snacks at least once a day. Every few days I also take a B-12 supplement, though most of my B-12 is from actual food. I've been eating this way for three years now and my blood lipids (cholesterol and triglycerides) are excellent, the lowest they have been in my entire life (I was a vegetarian when younger, but my lipids were not as good, because I ate alot of dairy).

And who told you 3-4 servings of legumes, of grains, what vegetables exactly, in what proportion? How do you know it covers human nutrition, in this combination?
Its like 30 things you are mixing together. It must be very complicated to know why, when and how. So how do you know? Do you study botany, to know what allergens, poisons, anti-nutrients and nutrients are in what plant and how to combine all of them to simulate meat?

Vegans can go as long as 5 years until all the vitamins stored in liver get depleted. Then the health becomes going downhill quite quickly for many of them. Until that, the diet looks easy, but it runs on savings.

Also, maybe I am mistaken, but did you not write in some other thread that you are obese? Which would be a strange thing if you are 3 years on an ideal human diet.

 

[FireDragon76]

And who told you 3-4 servings of legumes, of grains, what vegetables exactly, in what proportion? How do you know it covers human nutrition, in this combination?

You can use Cronometer or other apps to track nutrient intake and calories.

As I've said, I use the World Health Organization guidelines for nutrient intake. It's really not that complicated. Even Cronometer's default values (the daily recommended intake or DRI) are fairly good.

Also, maybe I am mistaken, but did you not write in some other thread that you are obese? Which would be a strange thing if you are 3 years on an ideal human diet.

No, I'm not obese. I am around 80 kgs at 175cm tall, roughly around 22 percent body fat, but I would be considered relatively healthy or normal by average American standards now days for a middle aged man, in terms of my body mass. In fact, I'm the only member of my family for whom that would be true. I also have had trouble getting a normal amount of physical activity for an American, because I am disabled and we had been living through a global pandemic that disrupted alot of activities. I also was overweight even before the pandemic.

As we get older, it also gets harder to lose weight. Metabolic slowing can happen due changes in body composition that tend to happen over time, as well as past attempts at weight loss. There's also evidence accumulation of environmental pollutants can slow our metabolism directly, by interfering with the thyroid (and meat, fish, and dairy is actually worse for this, since many of these pollutants bioaccumulate in the tissues and milk consumed), which can be released after body fat is burned in large quantities.

Not every vegetarian is going to be a thin person, for various reasons. But on average, they tend to have a more normal body mass index, than the general American population.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yeah, look seriously into how many animals die in fields, how many poisons are in waters, in soil, because of agriculture, how many birds die because of it, how insects and bees are dying out, how air is worsening, dusty, children are getting asthma and allergies, living near fields etc.

The landscape of countryside is ugly, destroyed by this basically dead land, animals have nothing to eat and nowhere to hide. Just unending fields of plowed land, everywhere one looks. Also the soil is getting so depleted, that tons of chemicals must be used for another run the next year. Its not sustainable at all.

This is a strange argument. Many of those plowed fields, at least in the US, are being used to grow livestock feed, not food for human consumption. Eating meat won't reduce those excess animal deaths at all, in fact, it contributes to them to a greater degree. It takes alot of calories to make a pound of beef or chicken. That has to come from somewhere, so in a country like the US, crops are usually grown to feed livestock. The majority of those calories are lost as body heat from the livestock; they never become meat or milk. That means more crops must be grown to feed the livestock, resulting in even more animal deaths, not less, when more meat and dairy is consumed, vs. plant foods.

 

[timewerx]

Lately I've come to a conclusion that there's a "holy war" being waged between carnivore proponents and vegan proponents.

They both use credible research to discredit each other and I'm talking about research publications and health articles in the internet itself. Either camp are extremists in their philosophy like a cult religion.

It's hard to trust either one of them.

I think I'll just eat whatever food that is clean and doesn't ruin my energy and doesn't make me sick in the short and long term.

 

[FireDragon76]

Lately I've come to a conclusion that there's a "holy war" being waged between carnivore proponents and vegan proponents.

People get very emotionally invested in food. Food is tied with culture, even politics.

At any rate, I am not a holy warrior. I don't expect everyone of the planet to give up their habitual diets any time soon. For one thing, there would be serious issues of practicality involved, since some remote areas, such as the Arctic or the Tibetan plateau, aren't suitable for widespread farming. However, people that live in industrialized countries with temperate or tropical climates do have choices in how they get the calories and nutrients they need to survive.

They both use credible research to discredit each other and I'm talking about research publications and health articles in the internet itself. Either camp are extremists in their philosophy like a cult religion.

There isn't nearly as much debate among serious scientists with actual expertise in the relevant fields. The debate is mostly due to well-heeled industries engaged in astroturfing campaigns. In some countries, such as Brazil, the cattle ranchers are even more like mobsters, with some even being responsible for the murder of several high profile environmental and indigenous activists.

Chico Mendes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Dorothy Stang - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[trophy33]

You can use Cronometer or other apps to track nutrient intake and calories.

As I've said, I use the World Health Organization guidelines for nutrient intake. It's really not that complicated. Even Cronometer's default values (the daily recommended intake or DRI) are fairly good.



No, I'm not obese. I am around 80 kgs at 175cm tall, roughly around 22 percent body fat, but I would be considered relatively healthy or normal by average American standards now days for a middle aged man, in terms of my body mass. In fact, I'm the only member of my family for whom that would be true. I also have had trouble getting a normal amount of physical activity for an American, because I am disabled and we had been living through a global pandemic that disrupted alot of activities. I also was overweight even before the pandemic.

As we get older, it also gets harder to lose weight. Metabolic slowing can happen due changes in body composition that tend to happen over time, as well as past attempts at weight loss. There's also evidence accumulation of environmental pollutants can slow our metabolism directly, by interfering with the thyroid (and meat, fish, and dairy is actually worse for this, since many of these pollutants bioaccumulate in the tissues and milk consumed), which can be released after body fat is burned in large quantities.

Not every vegetarian is going to be a thin person, for various reasons. But on average, they tend to have a more normal body mass index, than the general American population.

For example, when I add nuts to my animal-based diet, I immediatelly (in hours) notice being more tired, my joy from exercise to be getting low, my blood pressure goes up by 10 points or more for the whole day or even two days and I notice more crunching in joints and sometimes even pain.

So nuts obviously contain some poisons and I cannot recommend them to anyone. However, if you eat them on a plant-based diet, you need to use some other plant as an antidote to poisons in nuts, but this other plant is also poisonous in some way, so you need a third one... and this gets so complicated and messy that its not wonder the vast majority of vegans/vegetarians must leave it in few years.

I also notice health problems with cereal products - musli, baked goods, pasta and similar. And not just me, almost everybody I know, too. Potatoes and rice are giving me brain fog and tiredness. And so on. So going plant based would be an unending labyrinth of problems and almost alchemy to balance it all properly. Not to say most of it is tasteless in its natural form, because our body is not designed to want it.

On the other hand, I have no problems on animal-based diet and its as simple as it can be - both meat or eggs contain everything essential in proper proportions and (fermented) dairy contains almost everything essential. I can add some low-oxalated forest berries in a rational amount and everything fits.

 

[trophy33]

This is a strange argument. Many of those plowed fields, at least in the US, are being used to grow livestock feed, not food for human consumption. Eating meat won't reduce those excess animal deaths at all, in fact, it contributes to them to a greater degree. It takes alot of calories to make a pound of beef or chicken. That has to come from somewhere, so in a country like the US, crops are usually grown to feed livestock. The majority of those calories are lost as body heat from the livestock; they never become meat or milk. That means more crops must be grown to feed the livestock, resulting in even more animal deaths, not less, when more meat and dairy is consumed, vs. plant foods.

The US is a vast land, but many processes in there seem to be highly ineffective and too expensive.

If, for example, you had meadows instead of ugly large fields for producing sugar, it would be much better for everybody. From insects to birds to wild animals to humans.

But many people prefer a wide-spread farming and the countryside to look like in an apocalyptic movie.

 

[FireDragon76]

For example, when I add nuts to my animal-based diet, I immediatelly (in hours) notice being more tired, my joy from exercise to be getting low, my blood pressure goes up by 10 points or more and I notice more crunching in joints and sometimes even pain.

I don't know about the nuts in central Europe. Here in the US, the nuts that are commonly sold, are all safe to eat in moderation. I've also never experienced a blood pressure rise from eating any of them. Walnuts in particular are beneficial as they contain omega 3 fatty acids in abundance. I try to eat a small amount a few times a week.

If you have joint problems, you may not be getting enough vitamin C. The average male needs about 90mg of vitamin C a day as optimum, to get maximal healing of wounds and to saturate the neutrophils in the immune system. Vitamin C is very important in the synthesis of collagen, which is important for joint health and wound healing. 10mg is the minimum to prevent scurv, a serious form of vitamin C deficiency. Vitamin C can be challenging to get in in large amounts in some diets (especially in the winter), as the best sources tend to be botanical fruits, like citrus, tomatoes, or peppers, and some berries (like strawberries or blackberries), but it's also found in small amounts in many plant foods (all kinds of potatoes have some, as well as green vegetables and cabbage).

 

[trophy33]

I don't know about the nuts in central Europe. Here in the US, the nuts that are commonly sold, are all safe to eat in moderation.

I highly doubt they are from Europe. Such production is globalized and most customers in western countries have the same origin of these kinds of foods. Sure, there may be some portion of local production, but not too significant.

If you have joint problems, you may not be getting enough vitamin C. The average male needs about 90mg of vitamin C a day as optimum, to get maximal healing of wounds and to saturate the neutrophils in the immune system. Vitamin C is very important in the synthesis of collagen, which is important for joint health and wound healing. 10mg is the minimum to prevent scurvy, which can be a serious disease. Vitamin C can be challenging to get in in large amounts in some diets (especially in the winter), as the best sources tend to be botanical fruits, like citrus, tomatoes, or peppers, but it's also found in small amounts in many plant foods (all kinds of potatoes have some, as well as green vegetables).

I think you misunderstood it. I do not have any joint problems when not eating plants. But after eating for example nuts, I notice, among other things, mild pains. Or high blood pressure. Etc.

And I notice them only because I am used to be in a perfect state. When I was eating everything, before, I simply ignored such things as "normal". I bet you have them too, just not noticing them among other bigger problems.

Similarly, I have no problems with blood pressure, when eating only animal products. However, eating pastry or other plant based products? It goes high.

 

[FireDragon76]

Similarly, I have no problems with blood pressure, when eating only animal products. However, eating pastry or other plant based products? It goes high.

Pastry is primarily made from refined grain and depending on where you live (many European countries don't fortify grain), might contain no micronutrient nutritional value, only empty calories. It's also a food usually made with a significant amount of fat.

Several studies have found donuts, a similar American food (originally of Dutch origin, fried in lard), to be one of the least satiating foods you can eat (as a result, people can eat alot of donuts before feeling full). However, donuts are also very calorie dense and they have very little in the way of micronutrients, and no fiber. They became popular in the US at a time when Americans had only limited understanding of nutrition, and people tended to value calorie dense foods above all else.

 

[trophy33]

Pastry is primarily made from refined grain and depending on where you live (many European countries don't fortify grain), might contain no micronutrient nutritional value, only empty calories. It's also a food usually made with a significant amount of fat.

Several studies have found donuts, a similar American food (originally of Dutch origin, fried in lard), to be one of the least satiating foods you can eat. However, donuts are also very calorie dense and they have very little in the way of micronutrients, and no fiber. They became popular in the US at a time when Americans had only limited understanding of nutrition, and people tended to value calorie dense foods above all else.

When I eat a whole grain bread or müsli, I have significant abdominal pains. Probably because of some of hundreds of allergens and toxins in grains.

I also doubt that the lack of nutrients in one meal can give us high blood pressure. Its more probable its some chemicals in it.

 

[FireDragon76]

When I eat a whole grain bread or müsli, I have significant abdominal pains.

You might not be used to the fiber and indigestible carbohydrates in those foods. You might also have a more serious condition, like Irritable Bowel Syndrome, which can be caused by an unhealthy gut microbiome (I had this condition at one time). You have to have a healthy gut microbiome to be able to handle significant amounts of fiber. IBS can result in hypersensitivity in the gut and abdomen when fiber-rich foods are eaten.

In Europe and the US, there are products like Beano that you can take, made from an enzyme, alpha galactosidase, that can help you break down the indigestible sugars in found in many plant foods, like grains, legumes, or green vegetables.

Many grains or legumes can actually be soaked overnight, then cooked, and this breaks down the indigestible sugars in the grain. Sourdough bread, where the dough is fermented using a leaven overnight, should have most of the sugars broken down.

 

[trophy33]

You might not be used to the fiber and indigestible carbohydrates in those foods. You might also have a more serious condition, like Irritable Bowel Syndrome, which can be caused by an unhealthy gut microbiome (I had this condition at one time). You have to have a healthy gut microbiome to be able to handle significant amounts of fiber. IBS can result in hypersensitivity in the gut and abdomen when fiber-rich foods are eaten.

In Europe and the US, there are products like Beano that you can take, made from an enzyme, alpha galactosidase, that can help you break down the indigestible sugars in found in many plant foods, like grains, legumes, or green vegetables.

Many grains or legumes can actually be soaked overnight, then cooked, and this breaks down the indigestible sugars in the grain. Sourdough bread, where the dough is fermented using a leaven overnight, should have most of the sugars broken down.

Again, I have no problems on animal-based diet. Feeling better than ever, both mentally and physically.

Why should I "treat it" and return to the wrong diet, full of toxins, allergens, anti-nutrients, sugars and irritating fiber?

Also, what is "sensitivity"? Its having symptoms when digesting toxins. The fact you do not have symptoms does not mean you are not digesting toxins, you just do not register them and so it can be worse later, after their accumulation.

 

[FireDragon76]

Again, I have no problems on animal-based diet. Feeling better than ever, both mentally and physically.

Why should I "treat it" and return to the wrong diet, full of toxins, allergens, anti-nutrients, sugars and irritating fiber?

The evidence is that long term, such a diet is risky. A diet with little or no fiber is associated with increased heart disease and cancer risk.

Avoiding fiber is masking the underlying problem, which is likely an unhealthy gut microbiome. Restricting fiber should only be done as a temporary measure, with fiber being gradually reintroduced.

 

[trophy33]

The evidence is that long term, such a diet is risky. A diet with little or no fiber is associated with increased heart disease and cancer risk.

Avoiding fiber is masking the underlying problem, which is likely an unhealthy gut microbiome. Restricting fiber should only be done as a temporary measure, with fiber being gradually reintroduced.

No, there is no such evidence. The shoddy association research done with epidemiological studies is a junk science.

Regarding fiber, its helpful when you eat junk, like your american donuts, for example. You want to get that poisonous clogging substance out of your intestines and fiber acts as a fisher net, scraping the intestinal walls.
Also, fiber binds sugars.

On the other hand, meat is absorbed quickly and without problems. And its a diet very low on sugars, so you do not need a fiber to slow down its digestion.

Fiber is useful in specific situations, but its not an essential thing. And in some situations it can be harmful.

Basically, fiber is useful when you eat plants. If you eat highly processed plants like pasta, pastries without fiber, then its a problem. Fiber is not needed when you eat food that naturally do not have fiber, like meat, eggs or dairy. It may actually be contra-productive.