Trying to understand . . .Salvation.

[Bones49]

I don’t know your mind, but I do know your history. this is the same MO I have read from you before. you can only ask for correction so often, refuse it, and then ask again without it looking like you aren’t really looking for correction. the snarky, know-it-all tone of the article also just looks bad.


and again, hopefully for the last time:

salvation is a free gift since Christ has risen and no one will remain in the grave.

however, since we are fallen we must work to prepare to receive that gift when it comes for us.

salvation isn’t dependent on what we do. however, how we experience the gift is.

Is this different from what Soyeong said above? Because it sounds like it. Further I don’t think I understand.

1. Salvation is a free gift because we will will all be raised? I guess I’m wrong but it seems you connect salvation as a free gift with our resurrection?

2. We must work to prepare ourselves to receive the gift. So we must work to receive the gift, so it is based on works? Again I suspect this is not what you intend to say but y what is the difference between salvation based on works and salvation based as a gift based on works of preparation - it seems just more convoluted? When are we considering that we are saved - at some point in our life or at the judgement? In Protestantism we have point in our lives where we can say we are born again. Is there a parallel in the Orthodox Church, if so do these work happen before or after being born again?

3. What do you mean by ‘how we experienced the gift’ is this related to the idea of rewards?

Sorry, just realizing how much our thinking is based upon assumptions. I really have no idea of how the Orthodox Church works. But have recently been study church history which has sparked an interest in it.

 

[Bones49]

Ah ha! That's the answer!

The gift is indeed free, but how we deal with it and how we ultimately experience it depends on what we do with it.

Okay. I left the posts up only long enough to get some answers. They have been taken down from my site and put in the trash can.

The reason I sound "snarky" is because I don't find this very comforting. I don't find it comforting because my life is a wretched mess and no matter how much I pray, fast, and tell the Lord how messed up I am and an utter failure, I find myself constantly failing. There is a passage in the Orthodox Prayer Book that rather well describes this. It speaks of confessing and within an hour, doing the same thing over again.

Therefore, I fear in my heart that my experience of this gift is not going to be terribly pleasant in the next life. I wonder if priests (Fr. ?) get tired of hearing the same sins confessed by the same wretch who cannot get his life together to save his life?

And for me, if how we experience the gift is dependent upon what we do with it in this life, then the really truly wise men and women are those who opt for the monastery and the struggle within.

Is there any scope within the Orthodox tradition for the Holy Spirit to help an individual in his life to do these works?

 

[ArmyMatt]

you will not find your awnswers within any of the organized religions ....

this isn’t the place for this. this subforum has rules, please follow them.

 

[ArmyMatt]

1. Salvation is a free gift because we will will all be raised? I guess I’m wrong but it seems you connect salvation as a free gift with our resurrection?

yep, we are saved from the grave.

2. We must work to prepare ourselves to receive the gift. So we must work to receive the gift, so it is based on works? Again I suspect this is not what you intend to say but y what is the difference between salvation based on works and salvation based as a gift based on works of preparation - it seems just more convoluted? When are we considering that we are saved - at some point in our life or at the judgement? In Protestantism we have point in our lives where we can say we are born again. Is there a parallel in the Orthodox Church, if so do these work happen before or after being born again?

it’s not based on works, but works are involved. St Paul does say that we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

and you are born again at baptism, but it doesn’t end there. salvation in Scripture is not just in the past tense.

3. What do you mean by ‘how we experienced the gift’ is this related to the idea of rewards?

if you struggle to love God and neighbor, the resurrected life will be blessedness and illumination. if you live a life of unrepentant sin, the resurrected life will be condemnation and judgment.

 

[ArmyMatt]

i just read it and it makes no reference to any rule regarding the statement i made which i have no intention of debating ...

St Basil’s Hall (where we are) is for the Orthodox POV. your statement is not the Orthodox POV.

 

[honey badger]

point of view

oh ok ... ill leave you to it ...

 

[ArmyMatt]

oh ok ... ill leave you to it ...

you can post questions on here, and if you want to debate feel free in St Justin’s.

 

[Bones49]

yep, we are saved from the grave.

it’s not based on works, but works are involved. St Paul does say that we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

and you are born again at baptism, but it doesn’t end there. salvation in Scripture is not just in the past tense.

if you struggle to love God and neighbor, the resurrected life will be blessedness and illumination. if you live a life of unrepentant sin, the resurrected life will be condemnation and judgment.

Thank you for that very clear reply.

I would say that our works are a response to salvation (perhaps I should say that is what I've been taught).

Born again at baptism, interesting. Yes certainly, we will not be 'saved' in the fullest sense until the judgement (or after it!)

I would say that you have to struggle to love God ... somethings is not right, as I believe the bible tells us that as Christians God sends us his Holy Spirit to help us. But yes, I suppose, sometimes it does feel like a struggle.

Grace and Peace!

 

[ArmyMatt]

I would say that our works are a response to salvation (perhaps I should say that is what I've been taught).

well, they aren’t only a response since we are judged according to them and our faith is justified by them.

Born again at baptism, interesting. Yes certainly, we will not be 'saved' in the fullest sense until the judgement (or after it!)

we would say we were saved, are being saved, and will be saved.

I would say that you have to struggle to love God ... somethings is not right, as I believe the bible tells us that as Christians God sends us his Holy Spirit to help us. But yes, I suppose, sometimes it does feel like a struggle.

correct, something isn’t right and that is that we are fallen. if it wasn’t a struggle, Christ wouldn’t tell us to persevere unto the end.

 

[Malleeboy]

we would say we were saved, are being saved, and will be saved.

Father Matt,

I think the problem that Protestants often have with the above has is that many miodern Protestants so focus on justification that they have reduced salvation to just justification (or initial justification in Catholic terms.)
Salvation includes justification/regeneration, sanctification, and glorification.

Protestants schema historically is...
We were justified, we are being sanctified, we will be glorified. And since each of those are part of salvation, then "we were saved, are being saved, and will be saved" makes perfect sense.

When I was speaking to my sons Orthodox priests, I said that I viewed salvation as a "conventual relationship" and he said that was the Orthodox view, would you agree?

 

[ArmyMatt]

When I was speaking to my sons Orthodox priests, I said that I viewed salvation as a "conventual relationship" and he said that was the Orthodox view, would you agree?

depending on what you mean, yes

 

[Bones49]

Father Matt,

I think the problem that Protestants often have with the above has is that many miodern Protestants so focus on justification that they have reduced salvation to just justification (or initial justification in Catholic terms.)
Salvation includes justification/regeneration, sanctification, and glorification.

Protestants schema historically is...
We were justified, we are being sanctified, we will be glorified. And since each of those are part of salvation, then "we were saved, are being saved, and will be saved" makes perfect sense.

When I was speaking to my sons Orthodox priests, I said that I viewed salvation as a "conventual relationship" and he said that was the Orthodox view, would you agree?

Yes, I agree, most protestants equate being 'born again' with being saved. But that that is what is preached and commonly talked about. 'When where you saved?' But definitely the bible speaks of salvation as past tense, present continuous and future.

I would agree that what you say is a protestant schema, but I wouldn't agree with it. It seems to me that the bible typically considers sanctification as a past event. I think protestants by and large confuse sanctification and righteousness, the later which is normally presented as an ongoing thing - we are growing in righteousness. But anyway, I digress, this is not the place for that discussion.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It seems to me that the bible typically considers sanctification as a past event.

actually, this is also placed in present and future tenses.

 

[FreeinChrist]

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