Trinity theology

[ViaCrucis]

On the cross, Christ became sin for us (2 Cor 5:21), and the Father turned His back on (forsook) Jesus. They were completely separated for the only time in all of eternity. The penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23). Death includes two dimensions—physical and spiritual. Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body. Spiritual death is the separation of the spirit from God. Since Jesus was dying for our sin as our substitute, He was experiencing the agony of separation from His Father. That was the suffering that Jesus feared the most. Jesus suffered the punishment we deserved (separation from God) and in turn gave us His place of full acceptance in God.

I don’t know, or care, who the people or groups you mentioned in your comment above. All that matters is what the Bible says, and the Bible says that God became a man, and then that Man became sin. And because the penalty for sin is separation from God (death), the God-Man was separated from God the Father for a period of time. But because the God-Man was sinless and pure, He did not belong in Hell, separated from the Father, so they were reunited.

Behold the Mystery: God became sin in order that we might become the righteousness of God. God was cursed. God was mocked. God was crucified. God died and was buried; and so we have by His resurrection and the gift of the Holy Spirit become partakers of the Divine Nature, even as God has partaken of our humanity. God became man, and by the grace of God, we partake now of Him.

He who died bore our death, in order that we might bear the life of He who rose.
The sinner is declared forgiven and righteous.
The wretch covered in crimson stains is clothed in robes of white.
The Lamb of God takes away the sins of the world.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

I don’t know, or care, who the people or groups you mentioned in your comment above.

You should care, and you should learn. These are conversations and debates that were already addressed and talked about long ago, by Christians who were far more familiar with the language of Scripture and much better theologians than either you or I. That doesn't make them infallible, but it does mean we should listen to them, hear what they say, and why they said what they said.

Divorcing our reading of the Bible from the past is how cults and heretical sects are made. Recall what St. Jude has said, "Earnestly contend for the faith once and for all delivered to the saints."

It's not our job to reinvent the wheel, but to bear faithfully what has been received from the beginning.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[dzheremi]

I don’t know, or care, who the people or groups you mentioned in your comment above. All that matters is what the Bible says

Sir, with due respect, you're in the Traditional Theology subforum right now, which is basically the one place outside of the communion-specific subforums where you are required to care (or at least to post as though you do), according to this subforum's Statement of Purpose, which you should have read before posting here. If you really do not care, then you should not be posting here. The rest of us can follow the rules, and you are not exempt from them just because you have your own understanding of what the Bible means.

+++

NOTE TO WHOEVER MAY BE READING FROM THE TEAM THAT RUNS CF (I've tried to ask about this before, during the feedback period concerning potential changes to the forum around the forum upgrade, but to no avail): This right here, which happens rather frequently, is a good illustration of why the Traditional Theology subforum should be elevated to it own higher-level forum that is not underneath or nested within the General Theology subforum. It seems that we get a lot of visitors who either don't know or don't care to follow the rules here at Traditional Theology, and speaking only for myself it makes me not want to engage here, which is a real bummer because this is one of the only places on the this website where I can have the reasonable expectation of interacting with Christians across various confessions without having to deal with posts like the one I am responding to right now. This sort of thing is an affront to the presumed mission of this particular subforum, and I'd like something to be done about it.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Sorry, but they can, and did, separate during some of the time Jesus hung on the cross. God turned His face from Jesus, disassociating Himself from the One who had become sin in our place.

I know this is a popular teaching in some modern circles, but it's very wrong. It's unbiblical and makes a complete farce of the Trinity.

You are correct in every respect except one. He emptied Himself of His power as well. None of the miracles, signs, or wonders that He did were done by His own Power. Instead, He relied on the Holy Spirit for anything that a human could not do for himself. Just as the Prophets and the Apostles relied on the Holy Spirit to work the miracles and wonders He did through them, so too Jesus did nothing except through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Again, while a popular teaching in some modern circles, it's unbiblical, and it makes a complete farce of the Incarnation.

God cannot be divided. God cannot cease to be God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[The Liturgist]

So another thought came to me, could this formula be applied in a way that brings the church back together?

an interesting one.

Well, ecumenical reconciliation between the Eastern and Oriental Orthodoc has made great progress, especially where it matters most*, between the Coptic and Greek Orthodox Churches of Alexandria, and the Church of Sinai, and between the Antiochian and Syriac Orthodox Church, and between the Eastern Orthodox and the Assyrian Church of the East. Reconciliation of the Eastern Churches with Rome depends on Rome’s willingness to accept being primus inter pares, as well as Constantinople’s willingness to accept being secundus inter pares as opposed to their present ambition of being primus sine paribus, and likewise their willingness to redefine the filioque in a manner acceptable to the Eastern churches. Conversely, reconciliation with the Anglicans nearly happened, but was thwarted by a combination of interference from the low church movement and, since the 1970s, the liberal movement, with the issue becoming largely academic since the Episcopal Church began ordaining women in 1979 to the priesthood. However, reconciliation with the Anglo-Catholic Continuing Anglicans is likely attainable, on the basis of a shared understanding of sacramental theology, however, a lack of unity between the High Church Continuing Anglicans complicates the process of negotiation.


*except in the case of relations between the Oriental Orthodox and the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem, which are always fraught due to the ongoing tense situation at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre (where even the relationship between the most closely related Oriental Orthodox churches, the Coptic and Ethiopian churches, breaks down).

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

On the cross, Christ became sin for us (2 Cor 5:21), and the Father turned His back on (forsook) Jesus. They were completely separated for the only time in all of eternity. The penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23). Death includes two dimensions—physical and spiritual. Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body. Spiritual death is the separation of the spirit from God. Since Jesus was dying for our sin as our substitute, He was experiencing the agony of separation from His Father. That was the suffering that Jesus feared the most. Jesus suffered the punishment we deserved (separation from God) and in turn gave us His place of full acceptance in God.

I don’t know, or care, who the people or groups you mentioned in your comment above. All that matters is what the Bible says, and the Bible says that God became a man, and then that Man became sin. And because the penalty for sin is separation from God (death), the God-Man was separated from God the Father for a period of time. But because the God-Man was sinless and pure, He did not belong in Hell, separated from the Father, so they were reunited.

Absolutely not! The natures of Jesus cannot be separated as Nestorius tried to do. St. John Chrysostom in his Paschal sermon writes

And Isaiah, foretelling this, did cry: Hell, said he, was embittered, when it encountered Thee in the lower regions. It was embittered, for it was abolished. It was embittered, for it was mocked. It was embittered, for it was slain. It was embittered, for it was overthrown. It was embittered, for it was fettered in chains. It took a body, and met God face to face. It took earth, and encountered Heaven. It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen.