There is nothing in the Bible about the Tollhouses. Let's talk.

[ArmyMatt]

Would it be fair to say that these faith traditions vary within their observance per the individual within Orthodoxy? I realize that the toll house doctrine is often controversial; some Orthodox people favor it and others do not. I just want to try to show mutual respect for both the differing views within Orthodoxy if I am discussing it.

well, what do the saints say? they are the ones who are illumined, and they really don’t vary when it comes to this.

 

[Lukaris]

well, what do the saints say? they are the ones who are illumined, and they really don’t vary when it comes to this.

I will go with Fr Lawrence Farley’s take on this topic:

Toll-houses – No Other Foundation

It is, I suppose, a sign of how strange and ubiquitous the internet is that I often receive questions from new inquirers into Orthodoxy about toll-houses. Note: not the divinity of Jesus, or the Eucharist, or baptism, or the love and grace of God, or the nature of the Church. Not even about...

blogs.ancientfaith.com

 

[ArmyMatt]

I will go with Fr Lawrence Farley’s take on this topic:

Toll-houses – No Other Foundation

It is, I suppose, a sign of how strange and ubiquitous the internet is that I often receive questions from new inquirers into Orthodoxy about toll-houses. Note: not the divinity of Jesus, or the Eucharist, or baptism, or the love and grace of God, or the nature of the Church. Not even about...

blogs.ancientfaith.com

Fr Lawrence affirms them in the article, definitely defends the position.

 

[IoanC]

Demons are very clever and powerful. They will not allow you "to pass" anywhere, if you have impurities. God will not show up until you save demons according to their own rules, not God's. In other words, demons will not stop tormenting a human, until it becomes perfectly and totally loving towards all realities.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Demons are very clever and powerful. They will not allow you "to pass" anywhere, if you have impurities. God will not show up until you save demons according to their own rules, not God's. In other words, demons will not stop tormenting a human, until it becomes perfectly and totally loving towards all realities.

clever? yes. powerful? no, they are just good at convincing us of power they don’t have. and all of this is by God’s will. the demons can do nothing apart from His rule.

 

[Lukaris]

Fr Lawrence affirms them in the article, definitely defends the position.

I know but he basically says an individual can choose to have as little or much attention to it as they wish.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I know but he basically says an individual can choose to have as little or much attention to it as they wish.

yes, but that’s not the same as saying the Church cannot have a position either way. he says basically that the Church clearly does have a position.

 

[Lukaris]

yes, but that’s not the same as saying the Church cannot have a position either way. he says basically that the Church clearly does have a position.

I have not mentioned anything about the Church’s position but as to how the individual is bound to invest their attention to this doctrine.

To quote Fr Lawrence:


demonic gauntlet in the air through which the angels will lead us are well imaged by toll-houses. Yet the existence of such toll-houses is not a dogma of the Church, but a theologoumenon, a theological opinion. That said, it is theological opinion shared by many Fathers, both eastern and western, an opinion widely-enough held to find a secure place in the Church’s liturgical tradition. But belief in toll-houses should not effect how we live. Whether or not there are aerial toll-houses awaiting us, we know that we should live a life of repentance and should strive to please the Lord as those who will one day stand before Him to be judged. What matters is God’s grace and the life we live now.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I have not mentioned anything about the Church’s position but as to how the individual is bound to invest their attention to this doctrine.

To quote Fr Lawrence:


demonic gauntlet in the air through which the angels will lead us are well imaged by toll-houses. Yet the existence of such toll-houses is not a dogma of the Church, but a theologoumenon, a theological opinion. That said, it is theological opinion shared by many Fathers, both eastern and western, an opinion widely-enough held to find a secure place in the Church’s liturgical tradition. But belief in toll-houses should not effect how we live. Whether or not there are aerial toll-houses awaiting us, we know that we should live a life of repentance and should strive to please the Lord as those who will one day stand before Him to be judged. What matters is God’s grace and the life we live now.

but it being a theologoumenon doesn’t mean it’s optional.

plus, this thread isn’t about investing in the doctrine.

 

[Lukaris]

but it being a theologoumenon doesn’t mean it’s optional.

plus, this thread isn’t about investing in the doctrine.

I believe the respected Orthodox blog of John Sanidopulos points out that the term “theologoumenon” is itself imprecise. The part I will paste from does not concern toll houses; he is only referring to a functional understanding of “theologoumenon” from an article re the term. On an individual basis, the toll house doctrine is not binding on an faith. It must be acknowledged as a tradition but not universally agreed upon.

Per John Sanidopoulos:



Therefore a clearer definition of the term theologoumenon, which may not solve all the issues but will at least clarify things a bit, is in order: A theologoumenon is the belief or explication of one or more Fathers upon a spiritual or theological matter which is not clearly articulated in the Scriptures or formulated in Church dogma. It is a respected belief not contrary to Church dogma and usually accepted, but not one that everyone must subscribe to in order to be saved. The Church dogmatizes with reluctance, and only when the Faith itself is in danger; for the mystery of God and of His creation and economy cannot be circumscribed and defined in words, but only indicated; the dogma transcends its expression. A theologoumenon deals with spiritual verities of which the expression or explanation is not clearly defined and fixed because they are not yet fully revealed or are beyond our capacity, e.g., the state of the souls of the dead, and the life of the Kingdom. In a different capacity are “theological opinions" (theologikai gnomai), which are human attempts to find answers in the Scriptures and the Fathers for certain questions which are debatable and subject to theological inquiry.

On the Application of the Term "Theologoumenon"

www.johnsanidopoulos.com

 

[ArmyMatt]

I believe the respected Orthodox blog of John Sanidopulos points out that the term “theologoumenon” is itself imprecise. The part I will paste from does not concern toll houses; he is only referring to a functional understanding of “theologoumenon” from an article re the term. On an individual basis, the toll house doctrine is not binding on an faith. It must be acknowledged as a tradition but not universally agreed upon.

Per John Sanidopoulos:



Therefore a clearer definition of the term theologoumenon, which may not solve all the issues but will at least clarify things a bit, is in order: A theologoumenon is the belief or explication of one or more Fathers upon a spiritual or theological matter which is not clearly articulated in the Scriptures or formulated in Church dogma. It is a respected belief not contrary to Church dogma and usually accepted, but not one that everyone must subscribe to in order to be saved. The Church dogmatizes with reluctance, and only when the Faith itself is in danger; for the mystery of God and of His creation and economy cannot be circumscribed and defined in words, but only indicated; the dogma transcends its expression. A theologoumenon deals with spiritual verities of which the expression or explanation is not clearly defined and fixed because they are not yet fully revealed or are beyond our capacity, e.g., the state of the souls of the dead, and the life of the Kingdom. In a different capacity are “theological opinions" (theologikai gnomai), which are human attempts to find answers in the Scriptures and the Fathers for certain questions which are debatable and subject to theological inquiry.

On the Application of the Term "Theologoumenon"

www.johnsanidopoulos.com

that assumes I should listen to a blogger over someone like Fr Staniloae who agrees that theologumena are not clearly defined, but disagrees that necessarily makes them optional.

and while the Church does dogmamize things with reluctance, what is dogmatized is what has always been believed.