There is nothing in the Bible about the Tollhouses. Let's talk.

Light of the East

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Fr. Matt mentioned in the thread on Universalism that I am wrong to say that there is nothing in the Bible regarding the tollhouses after death. What I am reading as apologia for the tollhouses appears to me to be "reading into the text" what people want to be there, rather than a deeper study of the issue in context with the rest of the Scriptures. In other words, just like Protestants, we can be subject to looking at a text with presuppositions rather than asking questions and doing a comparative study.

Let me start with one such text from Sacred Scripture:
The seed of the Aerial Toll House doctrine is ancient. What we do know from the Scriptures and early Patristic evidence is that when the soul leaves the body, it is met by angels:

[T]he beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom (Luke 16:22).


Luke is a parable about the nation Israel. Unfortunately, rather than seeking the deeper meaning of this parable, people read it with a wooden literalism and have decided that this is an actual story that really happened. Our Lord taught many such parables, and at the end of them, you often see this verse:

Mark 12:12
And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way.

Now, Luke 16, another parable against the Pharisees and the nation of Israel:

The Rich Man symbolizes Israel. How was national Israel rich? Through her special relationship with God as the chosen people. Israel had the riches of God’s presence and leading, the Temple, and the relationship they had. The priests were clothed in purple and fine linen. I believe upon hearing these words, the priestly class listening to Christ would have begun to identify with it and take closer notice.

If national Israel was indeed the rich man who fared sumptuously every day, who was the beggar? It was the Gentile nations who had none of the riches of a relationship with God. No temple, no law of God, no prophets, and no true worship. In terms of the true riches, the riches of being God’s special and chosen people, they were bankrupt. The crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table could be the incidental hearing of the Jewish scriptures or seeing the worship in the Temple from the Outer Court of the Gentiles. These were crumbs, but not the full meal which the Jews enjoyed.

In parable both men die. When we think of death, it is normal to think of the cessation of life in the human body. But in scripture, death connotes something besides that. In Genesis 3 we see Adam and Eve die, but they are still alive. In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the father says “For this my son was dead, and is alive again . . . ” In neither case do we see the cessation of physical life. What we see is separation, Adam and Eve from Paradise, the son from his father’s presence. In the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, both men are separated from the condition in which they exist and find themselves in a new condition. Thus they “die” to their old life.

The rich man died to his existence and became poor. He was without all the luxuries and benefits which he had previously enjoyed, and this was a torment to him. This is a picture of Judaism, which no longer enjoys the special covenant relationship with God it once had. National Israel is no longer God’s special people. In the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen, national Israel is cast out of the vineyard (the Kingdom of God) and replaced. These two parables describe the same event. National Israel’s covenant with God ended in AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem. They are replaced by the church, the nation of the Gentiles. Those who were once beggars for crumbs from God’s table now feast upon the riches of Liturgy, Sacraments, and the Word of God.

It is interesting to see how the beggar was brought to Abraham’s bosom. He was carried by angels. The word angel means “messenger.” Who were the messengers who brought the Gentile nations out of their spiritual poverty and into God’s rich and abundant mercy? The Apostles. They brought the message of the Gospel, the Good News of the Resurrection and God’s favor, to the ends of the known world, bringing with them the invitation to enter the covenant which began with Abraham. St. Paul says “Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.” Abraham’s bosom is where the covenant father, Abraham, holds his children close to him in a special relationship.

On the other hand, in terms of their covenant with God being destroyed, national Israel was buried in AD 70 when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman armies of Titus and the Temple razed to the ground. This burial was confirmed by later attempts to rebuild the Temple being met with disaster and death.

In other words, this parable is a very weak attempt to prove connection to the idea of the toll houses.
 
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Thank you for the "national Israel" tie-in to Matthew.

I do not see any possibility of a tie-in of tollhouses to the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. The angels were not tempters, testers, nor tormentors, but rather signified the spiritual worth of the beggar, Lazarus. No mention of the Rich Man being tormented nor tested nor tempted. No tollhouses.
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Light of the East

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[W]hen we arrive at the end of life, we may ask the same petition from God, who is able to turn away every shameless evil angel from taking our souls…Hence also God by His Son teaches us for whose sake these things seem to have been done, always to strive earnestly, and at death to pray that our souls may not fall into the hands of any such power (St. Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, Chap 105, 150 AD).

Now let's bring in a little soteriology to this conversation. I find it amazing to think that having endured the agony of the Cross to rescue mankind from the evil one, having broken into the "strong man's house" (Hades) and plundered it, that Christ would now turn around and say to the wicked spirits "Okay, y'all git one more chance to damn my people." This is horrendous beyond belief.

Furthermore, I struggle with the idea that every thought of the ancient fathers is an infallible gem of truth. We see, for instance, how Roman thinking clouded the mind of the great St. Augustine to come up with some ideas that were accepted as Roman doctrine without even the slightest concern from Rome or the calling of a council for these theological novums. The best of saints have made errors, many of whom, realizing their mistake, have recanted and put themselves back on the path of the true faith.

Why would Christ allow any of His redeemed to fall into the hands of evil powers?

Now, reading further, the website that I am referencing says this:

The payment and trial at these toll houses represent are our own individual struggles with sin/passions. So, the demons tempt us to evil, but it is only if we give in to evil that we fall prey to them. The demons accuse us of the sins we have committed in our lives to lead us into despair and fall prey to our own passions.

First of all, if this is true, then an awful lot of us who really struggle with the passions are doomed. Perhaps some of you dear folks do not understand the power of addiction and what an intense struggle it can be to fight against it. But more than that, my understanding (and you correct me if I am wrong, Fr. Matt) of meeting Christ is that His love burns away all these passions which we have not dealt with in this lifetime so that we can be pure and enter into the blessed life of union with Him.

Who are these demons, who have been defeated at the Cross, to have any authority to mess with God's people after death? We belong to Christ, not to a defeated enemy. I find the whole idea of allowing a defeated enemy one last chance at victory to be deeply disturbing.
 
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This in line with my main objection to tollhouses, other than being too similar to the Egyptian Book of the Dead. One must have lived a charmed (pardon) life to find one's death as the real battle for your soul. A typical person knowing Christ (as can) and living among neutral, good and bad people, has a very stressful journey. No need for tollhouses. "And lead us not into temptation"
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Light of the East

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“But when the king [God] came in to see the guests [those who died], he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the servants [angels], ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth’” (Matt 22:11-13).

Context!!!! WHAT is being discussed here by Christ? To begin with you have to take the larger context of Matthew. Matthew is the JEWISH GOSPEL. Its aim is specifically the Jews and the Kingdom of Heaven. What is the Kingdom of Heaven? It is national Israel. Yet lazy exegetes just automatically assume that it is the same as the Kingdom of God. It is not. The phrase, "the Kingdom of Heaven" appears only in Matthew's Gospel, which should be a road sign directing us that something different is going on here from the other Gospels. This is the same mistake that Roman Catholics make when they go to Matthew 16 and pound the Bible saying that the pope is the head of the Church. Peter was given the keys to the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN not the Kingdom of God.

When you understand that Peter was sent to the Jews, with the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, you then properly understand that what Jesus is talking about is not Peter's ownership of the Church, but his going out to unlock the earthly Kingdom to the Jews, if they had only listened!!

It appears that early Christians, much like those of today, did not think like first-century Jews when reading the Scriptures. For instance, when Jesus speaks of “heaven and earth,” he is not speaking of this physical planet, nor the sky above us. Heaven and earth are a reference to the Temple.

Jews did not always mean “the physical universe” when they spoke of heaven and earth together. In Jewish literature, the Temple was a portal connecting heaven and earth. They called it the “navel of the earth” and the “gateway to heaven” (Jub 8:19; 1 Enoch 26:1). Just like the Mesopotamian Tower in Genesis 11, the Temple connected God’s realm to where humans lived.

To reflect this belief, the Jerusalem Temple had been built to look like a microcosm of the universe. We typically overlook how literally true the Temple hymn preserved in Psalm 78:69 is: “He built his sanctuary like the high heavens, like the earth, which he has founded forever.” The actual holy place and most holy place inside the Temple building were constructed like earth and heaven. The courts outside represented the sea. I am not making this stuff up.

According to Josephus, two parts of the tabernacle were “approachable and open to all” but one was not. He explains that in so doing Moses “signifies the earth and the sea, since these two are accessible to all; but the third portion he reserved for God alone because heaven is inaccessible to men” (Ant. 3:181, cf. 3:123). The veil between the accessible and inaccessible parts of the Temple was designed to represent the entire material world during Jesus’ day. Josephus and Philo agree that the veil was composed of four materials representing the four elements–earth, water, air, and fire (War 5:212-213; Ant. 3:138-144; Quaestiones in Exodum 2:85, cf. Mos 2:88). Heaven was beyond this material world. It was behind the curtain.

Outside the Temple’s microcosm of “heaven and earth,” the courts looked like the sea. Numbers Rabbah 13:19 records, “The court surrounds the temple just as the sea surrounds the world.” In Talmudic tradition, Rabbis described how the inner walls of the Temple looked like waves of the sea (b. Sukk. 51b, b.B.Bat. 4a). From heaven and earth inside the temple, you looked out at the sea surrounding the world. Why? Ancients believed the earth had one giant land mass surrounded by sea. The temple reflected that cosmology. The accessible section of the Temple and the surrounding courts embodied both the land mass and sea believed to comprise the earth. The Most Holy Place was heaven where God's presence resided.

If we listen to Jesus in First-Century Israel, his prediction of “heaven and earth” passing away sounds like the destruction of Jerusalem and her Temple. The contemporary songs, writers, and architecture all make the connection between Jerusalem’s Temple and “heaven and earth.” Isaiah used the same language of “heaven and earth” to depict Jerusalem and her citizens in Isaiah 65:17-18.

“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth and the former things will not be remembered or come to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing and her people for gladness.”

Isaiah is predicting the eventual reconstruction of Jerusalem after its destruction at the hands of invaders. He uses Hebrew parallelism to equate the creation of “new heavens and a new earth” with the restoration of Jerusalem. So Jesus isn't the first prophet to describe Jerusalem and her temple with grand language describing its theological significance. Jerusalem was the place where people encountered the presence of God on earth. The Temple is where heaven met earth.[1]


So, what is the context of Matthew 22. If you look carefully, you find it here:

Matthew 22:7
But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

It has NOTHING to do with the end of the world or the Judgment. And certainly not with demonic beings after death binding souls at a toll house and casting that soul into hell.



[1] Penley, “When Heaven and Earth Passed Away: Everything Changed.” Para. 5–11.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I see a whole lot of personal exegesis with no support from the Fathers (especially since many like St John Chrysostom assert the toll houses in their commentaries).

I mean, this is the same line of reasoning that JWs use when they claim there is no Trinity and any examples given are just called a “stretch” or claimed to just not make sense.
 
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Light of the East

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This is a disappointing response. When I posted in regard to the Bible, my hope and expectation was that Bible verses would be brought forth which "prove" the existence of the tollhouses. Could we approach this subject on that basis, including, if wishes, exegesis from Bible passages by the Fathers?
 
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This is a disappointing response. When I posted in regard to the Bible, my hope and expectation was that Bible verses would be brought forth which "prove" the existence of the tollhouses. Could we approach this subject on that basis, including, if wishes, exegesis from Bible passages by the Fathers?
there is no way to separate the Scriptures from the Fathers, the Liturgy, the icons, etc. all of those are a common message which are taken as a whole. you’re still approaching this like DBH.

this is why I brought up the JWs, since they have the same approach when it comes to the Trinity. so can we? sure, but it’s not an Orthodox approach.
 
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Light of the East

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What I hear you saying is that the Fathers are infallible in their understanding of the Scriptures, that they are not influenced at all by personal bias, a rudimentary understanding of the cosmos (we still see this in the idea of a "two-story" universe in which God "comes down" from heaven rather than the reality of God being all in all and all things existing in Him), Helenistic and Gnostic ideas, both of which influenced men like Tertullian and Augustine, or mistranslation of certain words?
 
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ArmyMatt

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What I hear you saying is that the Fathers are infallible in their understanding of the Scriptures, that they are not influenced at all by personal bias, a rudimentary understanding of the cosmos (we still see this in the idea of a "two-story" universe in which God "comes down" from heaven rather than the reality of God being all in all and all things existing in Him), Helenistic and Gnostic ideas, both of which influenced men like Tertullian and Augustine, or mistranslation of certain words?
no, what I am saying is that we look to the consensus of the Fathers. and that if something is found in their writings, prayers, hymns, icons, and recorded experiences, we know it to be true. the saints (in addition to many elders, eldresses, and academics) affirm the toll houses are biblical. this ranges from Fr Hopko to St Theognostos the Great Ascetic.

no offense, but the posts were really just long with little theological substance.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Could you please explain to me the difference between consensus and majority?
speaking in terms of patristics, the consensus is over time and regardless of geography, even if it wasn’t the majority at any given time or place. so, as an example, the divinity of Christ was affirmed before, during, and after Arius. that’s how we know which side falls under the consensus.
 
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I believe for us in the laity it is an ignorable concept and I understand the perplexity of anyone first encountering it. Personally, I believe it cannot be required but it cannot be rejected.

What might be a matter of concern is that is this concept taught with great emphasis in some areas whereas ignorance of salvation by grace ( Ephesians 2:8-10 or Ephesians 2:8-18) is evident?
 
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Lukaris

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what do you mean?
I have understood that a layperson is not required to put this doctrine into their faith practice. I believe we have to acknowledge that it is practiced by others . In a sense I guess a comparison can be made to the Jesus Prayer which, I believe, is not required for a layperson to practice. A major difference as to how the laity feels about the Jesus Prayer is that it is probably viewed more favorably ( I believe).

I do not mean to sound irritating with my (“I believe”) statements father, I am just leaving room for correction if I am mistaken on something.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I have understood that a layperson is not required to put this doctrine into their faith practice. I believe we have to acknowledge that it is practiced by others . In a sense I guess a comparison can be made to the Jesus Prayer which, I believe, is not required for a layperson to practice. A major difference as to how the laity feels about the Jesus Prayer is that it is probably viewed more favorably ( I believe).

I do not mean to sound irritating with my (“I believe”) statements father, I am just leaving room for correction if I am mistaken on something.
I think the difference is that the Jesus Prayer is a practice, whereas the tollhouses are not.
 
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I think the difference is that the Jesus Prayer is a practice, whereas the tollhouses are not.
Would it be fair to say that these faith traditions vary within their observance per the individual within Orthodoxy? I realize that the toll house doctrine is often controversial; some Orthodox people favor it and others do not. I just want to try to show mutual respect for both the differing views within Orthodoxy if I am discussing it.
 
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